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Thread: Calling all peeps with some mature muscle development

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    AlphaMindz's Avatar
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    Calling all peeps with some mature muscle development

    First of all hope you all had an awesome New Year and didn't f*ck up your diets too badly! Ok so my question is what do you think the most effective way of training is for individuals trying to achieve a bodybuilder physique? For those of you who've figured out how to build some real muscle and have been able to make incredible changes to your physiques over the years, how would you briefly describe what you did (in terms of training) to achieve that? I'd like to start a similar thread regarding gear, but let's keep this one on training style. Thanks in advance look forward to seeing all of your input!

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    GearHeaded is offline Trying to make money by wrecking YOUR health
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    Periodized training and progressive overload along with understating your own personal MRV (maximum recoverable volume).

    get those 3 things dialed in and implemented over a year or two and you'll definitely grow.

    as for training 'style' and schemes, well thats where Periodized training comes in.
    example -
    you may start the year off with a 12 week strength focused program. Your split may be programmed and set up around the 4 main lifts (squat, bench, deadlift, overhead press). over this 12 week phase you will be 'progressively overloading' and every couple weeks the weight on the bar is going up. as you get stronger and adapt more to the program your MRV will go up as well (you may of started with 5 sets of 5 on squat, but by the end of the phase your at say 8 sets of 5)

    then you de-load for a week or two.

    then you may go right into a 12 week hypertrophy phase . Being the strength phase got your stronger, you'll now be able to push more weight on all your hypertrophy training exercises. maybe you'll do more of a bodybuilder style split, chest/tricep day, back/bicep day etc.. in more the 8-12 rep range.

    Then when you done with that phase perhaps you go into a 6 week metabolite training cycle. you'll be doing a lot of 20 rep set squats, lots of drop sets and super sets etc. etc..


    wither we are doing HIT style training for one phase , or high volume training for another phase, we are always progressing. lots of different styles of training or exercises can be implemented into a singe phase. the point is to periodize it all and to continually progress and keep your MRV in check.

    develop a macro cycle, split it up into meso cycles, and then a micro cycle within that. that way you are able to grow and continue to grow, rather then getting stuck where your body adapts to a certain training program and style and no longer responds .

  3. #3
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    marcus300 is offline ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~
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    I first started with power lifting and slowly moved into bodybuilding because my body kind of exploded in a more muscular way so that pointed me to bodybuilding. Over the months/years I trained with some very experienced top level people and I tried every training protocol under the sun. I read every book soaked all the knowledge and kept changing training styles to see which one suited my body best.

    I could maintain muscle with many training styles more or less and I could hold decent size using volume, pyramid, some power lifting lifts but there was only one style what suited me for putting on serious size and that was HIT which included beyond failure techniques such as forced and negs, drop sets, rest pause, pre exhaust and all done with progressive overload. I adapted my own style of HIT to suit my body best and I kept with it because it was the only style what made me thick and bigger than anyone else and I was able to become the freak I always wanted to be. I usually did a 6 -8 week pure HIT routine then I would take 2 weeks pullback and then attack another 6 weeks HIT, swapping and changing the beyond failure techniques.

    My body responded well and it was the only style what kept my size and growing even off cycle and just on TRT. I took many clients through my training methods back in the day and most did very well indeed but HIT training isn't for everyone, its very tasking on your CNS and some guys just cant and don't understand what true positive failure is and this is the problem with many, many think they go to failure but they aren't and learning this process isn't just about lifting weights its a mental state of mind
    *Anyone wanting a source check from a willing vet/mod must first acquire 100 posts and 45 days of activity*

    “Carrying a set to a point where you are forced to utilize 100 percent of your momentary ability is the single most important factor in increasing size and strength"--- Mike Mentzer

    “one set to failure is all that is required to stimulate an increase in strength and size – with no number of lesser sets having the same effect” – Mike Mentzer

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    MuscleScience is offline AR-Hall of Famer
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    In the past something that frustrated a lot of people including exercise scientist was that the literature and real world results didn’t match. By that I mean, for hypertrophy you had to do this number of reps, for this number of sets for this many weeks and yada yada yada. But then another study or two would come along and say the opposite, and what scientist held to be true, the guys in the trenches were not seeing it line up. That’s why you will see every pro level guy have is very own philosophy and style of training. Because he experimented on himself and found what worked for his body.

    Now the science is really driven to something called Individual variable implementation. Meaning that when you factor in individual genetic difference between people and also variation within the individuals body. The studies are coming out more real world friendly. They are now finding out that different muscle groups respond differently to training types. What will work for growing the quads may not work for growing arms or chest. Also what will work for one mesomorphic type body may not work for another.

    For me, legs I was always under the school of thought you had to go heavy. So for years I went heavy and intense. And yes i was strong but my legs never grew. It wasn’t until I started doing CrossFit for a show prep that I discovered (by accident) that my legs respond best to volume and TONS of it. By comparison, my chest ONLY responds to heavy.

    Now you have key concepts that each training program must keep in mind. The basics and the building blocks of you will. GearHeaded and Marcus pointed those out. Outside of the fundamentals though, it’s really an experimentation game.
    Last edited by MuscleScience; 01-02-2018 at 05:55 AM.
    “If you can't explain it to a second grader, you probably don't understand it yourself.” Albert Einstein

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    SwoleAnchelada is offline New Member
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    I think it will be restated often on this thread but, individualized is best because of so many factors that impact individuals different (mental strength, specific weakness, previous experiences etc.) but for me and my clients time is your most important determining factor. Someone who can commit 2 hours a day doesn't simply double what someone who can commit 1 hour a day does. Similarly, someone who can commit 2 hours every second day, just doesn't combine two one hour sessions of someone who trains one hour everyday. There will be similarities and crossovers but fatigue accumulation and recovery strategies are different.

    My order of questioning with clients:
    What's your goal?
    What time commitment do you have?
    What are the variables that might impact the above two answers?

    Design program

    Make adjustments based off of actual reality, can they commit, or do you need to change things from their fantasy (what they say they'll do), compared to the reality (what you actual see them doing)

    Cheers

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    1moreset024 is offline Banned
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    How bout just lift weights eat right, don't cheat.

    I honestly think most of this is bullshit.

    5 sets, 8-10 reps 4-5 exersizes per body part per day. Once you get 12 reps, add 5-10lbs.

    This new aged Facebook generation fooey is just muddying up the waters

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    Charlie67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1moreset024 View Post
    ...This new aged Facebook generation fooey is just muddying up the waters
    I think there's something to what 1more said. Most of the science behind this industry is shaky, or the study population is 19 year old college men, age is such a huge factor. When I was 19, I could do ANYTHING and see results (naturally), and eat like crap while doing so. Now in my mid-40's, just keeping what little I have feels impossible. I've moved to more focus on strength, but I find a hybrid approach works best for me now and lets me keep a little size. I lift 5 days a week whether I'm on cycle or not, 3 day strength program, two days of more hypertrophy focused supplemental work. But when I'm off cycle, my volume goes down because all my joints begin to hurt. In the summer, I drop about 15 pounds too.

    I think there's only two fundamental rules to follow, 1) you have to actual focus when you lift, its called a WORKout for a reason. And 2) Consistency over time.

    Best,
    C-

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    GearHeaded is offline Trying to make money by wrecking YOUR health
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1moreset024 View Post
    How bout just lift weights eat right, don't cheat.

    I honestly think most of this is bullshit.

    5 sets, 8-10 reps 4-5 exersizes per body part per day. Once you get 12 reps, add 5-10lbs.

    This new aged Facebook generation fooey is just muddying up the waters
    a lot of guys do just that , but they look the same year after year after year. they never really progress. they've adapted to their 5 sets of 10 and their 4-5 exercises and they are going to just stay there

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    AlphaMindz's Avatar
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    Wanna thank you all for putting thought into your replies. That's some valuable info you guys shared. I'm currently doing more of an HIT approach and at first I felt as if I wasn't doing enough work, but the intensity of my workouts are insane and it's crazy how my body is responding to it. I was the guy who'd spend an easy 2 hours in the gym and focused on volume over intensity (although some intensity was there cause when I did a set I'd put maximum effort into, but the session as a whole lacked intensity). I gotta say, going balls to the wall, head phones in, no bs'ing between sets, resting maybe 30 seconds at most and many supersets and drop sets where there is no rest has been serving me well. I hate to think that I'll reach a point in maybe the next month or two where my body will stop responding to this style of training. You guys shared a lot of good shit, my main take away was that we have to find what works for us and change it up and figure out the most we can do and still recover in time to maximize growth (Gearheaded you mentioned MRV that's an interesting concept I'm not sure how I've never heard that term lol but it makes a lot of sense) I think that's exactly why a lot of newbies who go and kill it everyday don't grow for shit cause they're over doing their MRV and not giving their muscles and CNS time to recover or why people aren't growing at an optimal rate bc they could be doing more work...Gotta find that balance. That's where gear is a major asset. Also, the point MuscleScience made about different muscle groups responding to different training I feel is commonly overlooked. That took me a while to learn as well. My chest responds best to heavy bench press where as my shoulders seemingly only respond to super sets and drop sets with high volume. It's def a science AND an art that takes a lot of trial and error to find what works best, I think the trick is to minimize the time we spend doing shit that isn't yielding the best possible results.

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    AlphaMindz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    a lot of guys do just that , but they look the same year after year after year. they never really progress. they've adapted to their 5 sets of 10 and their 4-5 exercises and they are going to just stay there
    It's alarming how often I see exactly this...A dude who's always at the gym that you have some casual conversation with and 6 months-1 year later dude looks exactly the same.

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    MuscleScience is offline AR-Hall of Famer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie67 View Post
    I think there's something to what 1more said. Most of the science behind this industry is shaky, or the study population is 19 year old college men, age is such a huge factor. When I was 19, I could do ANYTHING and see results (naturally), and eat like crap while doing so. Now in my mid-40's, just keeping what little I have feels impossible. I've moved to more focus on strength, but I find a hybrid approach works best for me now and lets me keep a little size. I lift 5 days a week whether I'm on cycle or not, 3 day strength program, two days of more hypertrophy focused supplemental work. But when I'm off cycle, my volume goes down because all my joints begin to hurt. In the summer, I drop about 15 pounds too.

    I think there's only two fundamental rules to follow, 1) you have to actual focus when you lift, its called a WORKout for a reason. And 2) Consistency over time.

    Best,
    C-
    There are literally 10’s of Thousands exercises studies on every population or subgroup know to man. But I think you hit on a couple of key elements. Checkout the link in my signature called “Tips for Young Lifters.”

    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    a lot of guys do just that , but they look the same year after year after year. they never really progress. they've adapted to their 5 sets of 10 and their 4-5 exercises and they are going to just stay there
    I remember when the russians and then the powerlifting guys started implementing periodization programs, or it became popular. It was like oh duh, you have to change things up to continue to grow.


    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaMindz View Post
    It's alarming how often I see exactly this...A dude who's always at the gym that you have some casual conversation with and 6 months-1 year later dude looks exactly the same.
    Same.
    “If you can't explain it to a second grader, you probably don't understand it yourself.” Albert Einstein

    "Juice slow, train smart, it's a long journey."
    BG

    "In a world full of pussies, being a redneck is not a bad thing."
    OB

    Body building is a way of life..........but can not get in the way of your life.
    BG

    No Source Check Please, I don't know of any.


    Depressed? Healthy Way Out!

    Tips For Young Lifters


    MuscleScience Training Log

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    Clove1234 is offline Associate Member
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    The key to understanding this post is that literally no one is the same. You need to try everything and make a plan that works best. But by all means, try some of these super effective protocols on the way.

  13. #13
    AlphaMindz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300 View Post
    I first started with power lifting and slowly moved into bodybuilding because my body kind of exploded in a more muscular way so that pointed me to bodybuilding. Over the months/years I trained with some very experienced top level people and I tried every training protocol under the sun. I read every book soaked all the knowledge and kept changing training styles to see which one suited my body best.

    I could maintain muscle with many training styles more or less and I could hold decent size using volume, pyramid, some power lifting lifts but there was only one style what suited me for putting on serious size and that was HIT which included beyond failure techniques such as forced and negs, drop sets, rest pause, pre exhaust and all done with progressive overload. I adapted my own style of HIT to suit my body best and I kept with it because it was the only style what made me thick and bigger than anyone else and I was able to become the freak I always wanted to be. I usually did a 6 -8 week pure HIT routine then I would take 2 weeks pullback and then attack another 6 weeks HIT, swapping and changing the beyond failure techniques.

    My body responded well and it was the only style what kept my size and growing even off cycle and just on TRT. I took many clients through my training methods back in the day and most did very well indeed but HIT training isn't for everyone, its very tasking on your CNS and some guys just cant and don't understand what true positive failure is and this is the problem with many, many think they go to failure but they aren't and learning this process isn't just about lifting weights its a mental state of mind
    That's a great point man. Everything I do throughout the day is either helping or hurting the work I put in at the gym. When I started thinking this way is when I started making real gains. The way I look at it is getting the right nutrition throughout the day and making sacrifices here and there (not eating that brownie or deciding not to have drinks if I'm downtown) is the hard part, "the work" so to speak, and getting in the gym and going balls to the wall is the fun part! Getting that insane pump and feeling the strength increase and watching my physique change is the payoff for everything I'm doing outside of the gym...

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