how do I work out when on Keto? all out?

[Too-$mall]

So the keto diet is heavy restriction for 5 weeks.
about 40g fat per day essentials, saturated, polys and monos.
protein is around 200 per day
carbs are being kept at around 30g per day. really hard to keep them low AF. everything has carbs in it. i want them at around zero, but plain yogurt and cottage cheese has incidental carbs. not a super huge fan of chicken and cooking takes time. i do have some chicken and i can make it how i like it, charred. i could do more breasts in order to avoid the carbs.

so i'm working out about 5 - 6 days a week. sometimes i take 2 days off when my body feels physically stressed.

[Clove1234]

You need to have your fat wayyyy higher than that. You are using fat for fuel, think of having the same macros for fat as you would carbs during a normal diet. You have to have carbs, cannot go down to zero.

Working out will honestly suck the first couple of weeks, if you are pretty lean already; your body will adapt to using fat as fuels faster. After about two weeks you should see a noticeable energy increase. However, depending on what your goals are, i really don’t think keto is the way to go if you are trying to gain mass or strength.

[Too-$mall]

Na, i need to cut now.

this guy has all kinds of vids on keto. i did a keto where i wasn't monitoring my fat intake. i lost 10lb and that's all i lost. i want to make my cuts deeper. this guy has been competing for years and juicing just as long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GjJrqm-s4Q

show me how shredded you are, or have been able to get.

[Clove1234]

Very friendly, good luck with your cut. YouTube and google is your friend.

[Too-$mall]

The body is the calling card. i'd ask you more questions but you won't even post a photo...

[Clove1234]

How did this thread get to you wanting pictures of me. I as an educated dietitian offered you advice on how to do your diet. What you are talking about is not a traditional keto diet. Sorry if it wasn’t what you wanted to Hear. If you had your mind made up from watching that YouTube video, why did you post two threads here asking the same questions.

I do not have any goals currently to be shredded, I’m a power lifter. We are on different planets as far as goals. But by all means, good luck with your cut. As previously stated, google and YouTube are your friend. Good luck

[Too-$mall]

how am i supposed to take advice from you? 228 posts and no photos... it's not what i want to hear, it's who i want to listen too. I've taken your advice with a grain of salt and will very slightly increase my fat intake.

sure dietician. have you ever cut down? way down?

[GearHeaded]

Keto is going to deplete you of muscle glycogen . you'll have more cardiovascular endurance and energy from being in ketosis, but you'll have less strength and ability to perform reps to and beyond failure like you would normally be able to. so you can keep your training the same as its been, just know your reps will go down and so will your strength . however cardio will be easy as fuck.

the traditional Keto diet is a HIGH FAT DIET . your body is becoming 'fat adapted' , you run off of dietary fat and stored fat , you no longer run off carbs and glucose.

40g of fat on a keto diet is NOT a keto diet. heck the govt. and the American heart association recommend more fat then that just on a normal persons diet , let alone someone on Keto.
70% of your diet needs to be from fat, 25% from protein, 5% trace carbs from veggies.. so if you eat 3000 calories per day. then 70% of those calories should be from fat . thats 233 grams of fat per day.

sounds nuts right, that much fat? well thats what traditional Keto is.

if your fat is not high enough and you consume too much protein then you will never be able to get into Ketosis . This is because of the process of 'gluconeogenisis' , where the liver takes protein and converts into glucose to be used as energy. you don't want that if Keto is your goal . so Fat has to be high and protein moderate . thats how keto works.

there are forms of 'modified keto' where protein is a bit higher and fats are not too crazy high .. but again , these are modified and not true keto, and not necessarily going to put you into a state of deep ketosis.


on a side note regarding your you tube guy -- Jerry Ward is quite the character. personally I think he has a learning disability . he has been around the industry for years, but he's not someone I'd ever want as a coach. he doesn't have the mental fortitude to understand the science and biological aspects of bodybuilding.
he has said some stupid shit like - playing basketball is not a cardiovascular exercise ,, and you have to count fiber calories as calories in your calorie counting (even though fiber calories are never absorbed and can't be used by the body as calories, so they really don't count).
anyhow just saying ,, he's vids have a couple good points here and there, but nothing I'd ever rely on thats for sure .. just my opinion

[GearHeaded]

about 40g fat per day essentials, saturated, polys and monos.
protein is around 200 per day
carbs are being kept at around 30g per day..

you do realize that those macros only total up to 1280 calories per day right ?!?

you'll lose a ton of muscle going that low of calories and fry your metabolism

[Clove1234]

Interested in cutting or wasting?

[MuscleScience]

Keto is going to deplete you of muscle glycogen . you'll have more cardiovascular endurance and energy from being in ketosis, but you'll have less strength and ability to perform reps to and beyond failure like you would normally be able to. so you can keep your training the same as its been, just know your reps will go down and so will your strength . however cardio will be easy as fuck.

the traditional Keto diet is a HIGH FAT DIET . your body is becoming 'fat adapted' , you run off of dietary fat and stored fat , you no longer run off carbs and glucose.

40g of fat on a keto diet is NOT a keto diet. heck the govt. and the American heart association recommend more fat then that just on a normal persons diet , let alone someone on Keto.
70% of your diet needs to be from fat, 25% from protein, 5% trace carbs from veggies.. so if you eat 3000 calories per day. then 70% of those calories should be from fat . thats 233 grams of fat per day.

sounds nuts right, that much fat? well thats what traditional Keto is.

if your fat is not high enough and you consume too much protein then you will never be able to get into Ketosis . This is because of the process of 'gluconeogenisis' , where the liver takes protein and converts into glucose to be used as energy. you don't want that if Keto is your goal . so Fat has to be high and protein moderate . thats how keto works.

there are forms of 'modified keto' where protein is a bit higher and fats are not too crazy high .. but again , these are modified and not true keto, and not necessarily going to put you into a state of deep ketosis.


on a side note regarding your you tube guy -- Jerry Ward is quite the character. personally I think he has a learning disability . he has been around the industry for years, but he's not someone I'd ever want as a coach. he doesn't have the mental fortitude to understand the science and biological aspects of bodybuilding.
he has said some stupid shit like - playing basketball is not a cardiovascular exercise ,, and you have to count fiber calories as calories in your calorie counting (even though fiber calories are never absorbed and can't be used by the body as calories, so they really don't count).
anyhow just saying ,, he's vids have a couple good points here and there, but nothing I'd ever rely on thats for sure .. just my opinion

you do realize that those macros only total up to 1280 calories per day right ?!?

you'll lose a ton of muscle going that low of calories and fry your metabolism

Absolutely agree with both here GH and Clove, you need your fats much higher. I’ve been on Keto for 7 weeks now. I started at 227 and woke up at 207 this morning. I’ve done Keto for previous show cuts and you can get absolutely shredded. I haven’t lost any strength at all, my pump in the gym now that I’m adapted is sick.

My total calories per day are usually between 1850-2000 a day which actually maybe a bit low.
My diet is split like this <5% carbs, 35% protien, 60% fats. Also if your intake of protien is too high, it will keep you out of ketosis as your body will convert proteins via gluconeogenesis into glucose.

I know it’s counter intuitive to intake fat that high, everything we grew up with tells you fat is bad. But all that advise in the past was flat out wrong. When you go into ketosis your body becomes a fat burning furnace. I have night sweats every night like I’m on Tren, which I am not.

Hope that helps, oh and I have pics up in the competition thread of what I looked like after my last Keto run.

[Clove1234]

Now that’s a good post. Sounds like you have had great results with the keto diet. That macro ratio is very similar to what i did. Your body is super resistant to burning fat. So to reiterate, too much protein and not enough fat...you still wont be burning fat. The human body is one smart and tricky sob

[Too-$mall]

ok. i'm easy. sounds good.

are you in the industry? so you're a legit bodybuilder? not just doing this because you like it. you do shows? like how hard core into this are you? i don't know much about the Industry at all.

Then i have to start counting. what a pain.

don't i have to get my lean body mass / find body fat? -use the 8 point method then determine what my calories are based on lean mass sedentary off day and on a workout day with 8 hrs that day being sedentary? i do don't I.

I dieted successfully last year, choosing a balanced style with -500 cal each day factored into my total cal used that day depending on what i was doing... used the same method as above. the thing is that i want to be able to eyeball my food. cant do that i guess. so stop doing this. OK that's easy. i'm stopping tonight.

it's just such a pain to plan out everything. OK. so I've heard carb cycling is the best way to get lean. that true?

so you're saying in order for me to successfully eyeball a diet that keeps me lean and supplies me with mass i have to count for awhile until i get the hang of this? more experience. if i do that I'll be able to successfully wing things.

i'll start that thread. then just keep a log. well glad i killed that.

so about jerry. are you saying he lied? because if he did what he said he did then it wasn't a lie, but if you think that's crazy then... maybe he didn't do that. he doesn't strike me as being a lying fake. he can get lean. he does get lean. it can't be that he's stupid yet still get lean. he's probably not the best, but i think he knows more than me. everyone says something different. i don't know who to listen to. seems like last years diet worked pretty good, but man did it suck and man was it boring AF. keep at it right. do what i did last year and try to improve on it? this sucks i really want to get lean. is this the only way?

time to eat

[Clove1234]

From past experiences tracking everything is the best and fastest way to get lean. Carb cycling or keto, whatever you choose. After some time, you can eyeball stuff. But i find myself and most people i have trained virtually end up eating the same stuff every day for awhile. That can make it easier. If you cant do that and like to change it up, you’ll have to get used to tracking.

[MuscleScience]

From past experiences tracking everything is the best and fastest way to get lean. Carb cycling or keto, whatever you choose. After some time, you can eyeball stuff. But i find myself and most people i have trained virtually end up eating the same stuff every day for awhile. That can make it easier. If you cant do that and like to change it up, you’ll have to get used to tracking.

Yep, have too. Infact I’ve practically done that method for so long. I can basically remember what I eat and add in a food, meal or snack if I’m not at my macros at that point. I started out with my fitnass pal and a digital scale. After programming all my meals in and then logging them a few times. I know exactly where I am at each day at any point in time.

One thing you might try OP is intermittent fasting. That will help get you into ketosis faster and you dog have to be quite as precise with counting carbs. The longer you fast the more leeway you can have. I do a 13 hour fast, but 16 hour is the best in my opinion which I am working up too. Lol

[Clove1234]

Always forget to mention that cause I’ve been doing it every day for awhile. Honestly my diet was pretty clean before i started doing it. Didn’t notice anything huge, still feel the benefits outweigh the negatives. I do 12 hours a day and you can change the eating/fasting window based on your schedule.

[Too-$mall]

I have to find my calipers. i think they are lost. i gotta do this in my journal guys. i have to really sit down and hash out all the details. see anything wrong with me using tuna to do this?

last time i did it i ate tuna every day for quite some time. it was super easy. canned tuna and steel cut oats. practically prep free. probably waay too much mercury... i suppose it would help switch things up. i could do it once a week. making a couple different daily meals with the same macro dispersion would make things more interesting. after awhile i guess i'll get faster and better at it and it won't be such an annoying process. i can basically eat anything clean as long as it has been planned in.

thanks guys. going back to my journal.

1 day at a time.

[MuscleScience]

I have to find my calipers. i think they are lost. i gotta do this in my journal guys. i have to really sit down and hash out all the details. see anything wrong with me using tuna to do this?

last time i did it i ate tuna every day for quite some time. it was super easy. canned tuna and steel cut oats. practically prep free. probably waay too much mercury... i suppose it would help switch things up. i could do it once a week. making a couple different daily meals with the same macro dispersion would make things more interesting. after awhile i guess i'll get faster and better at it and it won't be such an annoying process. i can basically eat anything clean as long as it has been planned in.

thanks guys. going back to my journal.

1 day at a time.

Tuna is great and I assume your not pregnant so you should be fine...lol

[Gallowmere]

Tuna is great and I assume your not pregnant so you should be fine...lol

This. The mercury warning was only ever meant to apply to children and pregnant/nursing women. Over time retarded pubbie “experts” extrapolated it to everyone. The official document still only applies to the aforementioned populations, but once misinformation spreads to such a degree, it’s hard to get rid of.

Main thing to consider: selenium readily binds to methyl mercury, rendering it non-bioavailable. Take a wild guess at which mineral tuna has a shitload of.

[Clove1234]

Love me some tuna, during the day it makes up most of my protein macros. I prefer the stuff in the pouches over the cans though.

[GearHeaded]

Too-Small,, man I thought you were 'too small' and you wanted to get big and were going to do a test, deca, dbol, bulk .

I'd just do a 4 week mini cut then get back to the size game.. if getting bigger and putting on more lean muscle is your ultimate goal then doing a long cut diet is just going to hinder you from your big picture goal

[Big EZ]

Keto is going to deplete you of muscle glycogen . you'll have more cardiovascular endurance and energy from being in ketosis, but you'll have less strength and ability to perform reps to and beyond failure like you would normally be able to. so you can keep your training the same as its been, just know your reps will go down and so will your strength . however cardio will be easy as fuck.

the traditional Keto diet is a HIGH FAT DIET . your body is becoming 'fat adapted' , you run off of dietary fat and stored fat , you no longer run off carbs and glucose.

40g of fat on a keto diet is NOT a keto diet. heck the govt. and the American heart association recommend more fat then that just on a normal persons diet , let alone someone on Keto.
70% of your diet needs to be from fat, 25% from protein, 5% trace carbs from veggies.. so if you eat 3000 calories per day. then 70% of those calories should be from fat . thats 233 grams of fat per day.

sounds nuts right, that much fat? well thats what traditional Keto is.

Absolutely agree with both here GH and Clove, you need your fats much higher. I’ve been on Keto for 7 weeks now. I started at 227 and woke up at 207 this morning. I’ve done Keto for previous show cuts and you can get absolutely shredded. I haven’t lost any strength at all, my pump in the gym now that I’m adapted is sick.

My total calories per day are usually between 1850-2000 a day which actually maybe a bit low.

These comments are pretty eye opening.. I realize now I wasn't serious with keto at all but I'm a little curious of the statements above.
If MS claims to have not lost strength, but GH points out the muscle glycogen is the primary source of energy when lifting and you'll lose strength, are we in agreeance that short term keto may not reduce strength?

[MuscleScience]

These comments are pretty eye opening.. I realize now I wasn't serious with keto at all but I'm a little curious of the statements above.
If MS claims to have not lost strength, but GH points out the muscle glycogen is the primary source of energy when lifting and you'll lose strength, are we in agreeance that short term keto may not reduce strength?

There will be a week or two lag until your body fully adapts to using ketones as the primary fuel source. My first full run into keto I had a two day period where my energy sucked. Eventually that went away and I was back to full energy, full pumps and full throttle. But if you’re not a powerlifter and you want to lose weight. Who cares if you lose strength for a short period of time anyway?

[Big EZ]

Dude I usually hate setbacks in intensity. If the results are that gamechanging though, you can't argue with it at all.

[GearHeaded]

These comments are pretty eye opening.. I realize now I wasn't serious with keto at all but I'm a little curious of the statements above.
If MS claims to have not lost strength, but GH points out the muscle glycogen is the primary source of energy when lifting and you'll lose strength, are we in agreeance that short term keto may not reduce strength?

There will be a week or two lag until your body fully adapts to using ketones as the primary fuel source. My first full run into keto I had a two day period where my energy sucked. Eventually that went away and I was back to full energy

my opinion, I think being on Keto has improved MS's Vo2 max and Vo2 lactate threshold (which is common for guys who go on keto diets, and is a reason why many endurance athletes like triathletes or cyclist do a keto diet for performance),, and this is making him feel 'full of energy', after he went through the transition of brain fog and weakness going from glucose metabolism to ketosis.

however, that is Imo, subjective on MS's part . he 'feels' full of energy and 'feels' stronger , which a lot of people on keto do because running on keto gives people mental clarity and focus and increased endurance. BUT I believe objectively , if you put MS in a controlled laboratory environment and had his strength tested on a high carb diet and then had him tested on a keto diet , his measurable strength would be higher with carbs then keto....

this is just a physiological fact (apart from subjective feelings), your muscles can perform better and stronger with fully loaded stores of glycogen and water and elcotrlyes . with Keto these things are all depleted (you may feel great and energetic, but your physiologically weaker).

there have been numerous studies done that show this and are all in relative agreement . this is why high level Tri athletes may be on keto diets for the endurance benefit, but every high level strength athlete is on a carb based diet.

BUT like MS said , your goal may not be pure strength as a powerlifter so who cares if you strength may be slightly decreased while your burning fat and feeling great all around anyway.

[MuscleScience]

my opinion, I think being on Keto has improved MS's Vo2 max and Vo2 lactate threshold (which is common for guys who go on keto diets, and is a reason why many endurance athletes like triathletes or cyclist do a keto diet for performance),, and this is making him feel 'full of energy', after he went through the transition of brain fog and weakness going from glucose metabolism to ketosis.

however, that is Imo, subjective on MS's part . he 'feels' full of energy and 'feels' stronger , which a lot of people on keto do because running on keto gives people mental clarity and focus and increased endurance. BUT I believe objectively , if you put MS in a controlled laboratory environment and had his strength tested on a high carb diet and then had him tested on a keto diet , his measurable strength would be higher with carbs then keto....

this is just a physiological fact (apart from subjective feelings), your muscles can perform better and stronger with fully loaded stores of glycogen and water and elcotrlyes . with Keto these things are all depleted (you may feel great and energetic, but your physiologically weaker).

there have been numerous studies done that show this and are all in relative agreement . this is why high level Tri athletes may be on keto diets for the endurance benefit, but every high level strength athlete is on a carb based diet.

BUT like MS said , your goal may not be pure strength as a powerlifter so who cares if you strength may be slightly decreased while your burning fat and feeling great all around anyway.

I don’t disagree with that fact, I’m also 27lbs lighter than 6 months ago and posting nearly the same amounts on bench and squat and have upped my deadlift. But I hadn’t been able really to train deadlift due to my injury recover. I’m by far not the strongest I’ve ever been. But as far as going through a cut and maintaining strength relative to other cuts and such. There is no comparison. My two goals with Keto diet are 1. Cut body fat, 2. Limit muscle loss. If I’m still lifting 5-10lbs of all my 1RM’s and working weight ranges then I’m happy with that. I know If i was in a bulk, I would put on more strength and muscle but that’s not my goal right now.

I guess I say all that to say this. With Keto, for me I’ve not experienced any type of dramatic strength or muscle loss like some experience when in a cutting phase.

[GearHeaded]

I don’t disagree with that fact, I’m also 27lbs lighter than 6 months ago and posting nearly the same amounts on bench and squat and have upped my deadlift.

thats because your progressively overloading making progress and know what the heck your doing in the gym and how to train with proper technique and intensity (which 90% of most guys don't know how to do ,, so they get on keto or a calorie deficit and then tank).
your optimizing your diet and your training and it shows by the progress your making.

[MuscleScience]

thats because your progressively overloading making progress and know what the heck your doing in the gym and how to train with proper technique and intensity (which 90% of most guys don't know how to do ,, so they get on keto or a calorie deficit and then tank).
your optimizing your diet and your training and it shows by the progress your making.

Well yeah, so what are we arguing aboot eh? Lol

[MuscleScience]

Oh and just wait until I start dumping Tren into my fat bombs

[GearHeaded]

Well yeah, so what are we arguing aboot eh? Lol

yep, just saying you should take credit for your strength gains because of yourself and your knowledge and ability to train properly , NOT because of anything magical in the ketones. cause again , physiologically, glycogen and water retention in muscle cells increase strength whereas as Ketones do not, but ketosis does increase Vo2 max

hmmm now if only I could figure out a way to maintain a shit ton of glycogen stores and be in ketosis at the same time

[MuscleScience]

yep, just saying you should take credit for your strength gains because of yourself and your knowledge and ability to train properly , NOT because of anything magical in the ketones. cause again , physiologically, glycogen and water retention in muscle cells increase strength whereas as Ketones do not, but ketosis does increase Vo2 max

hmmm now if only I could figure out a way to maintain a shit ton of glycogen stores and be in ketosis at the same time

Well if you have a good bit of protien you will convert a portion via gluconeogenesis. I think supplementing with Creatine helps offset some of the strength loss. You don’t need as much glycogen for weight lifting if your phospocreatine Atp-adp can operate a bit longer so that the glycolyitic energy systems doesn’t have to kick on so fast. Also if your oxidative systems are Effiecient you won’t need as much glycogen to do the same or more work.

It’s all about metabolic condition lol.

[GearHeaded]

Well if you have a good bit of protien you will convert a portion via gluconeogenesis. I think supplementing with Creatine helps offset some of the strength loss. You don’t need as much glycogen for weight lifting if your phospocreatine Atp-adp can operate a bit longer so that the glycolyitic energy systems doesn’t have to kick on so fast. Also if your oxidative systems are Effiecient you won’t need as much glycogen to do the same or more work.

It’s all about metabolic condition lol.

true, but gluconeogenisis is metabolically inefficient (and very very cost $ inefficient ,, meaning protein is way more expensive then carbs just to use as glucose) ,, I know of some guys that are on keto and they just slam 40 grams of dextrose or some fast acting carb pre-workout and get some of the benefits of glucose, but they have such a high work load and intensity that they burn through it and get back into ketosis in a couple hours.

[Big EZ]

Keto, creatine, and progressive overload for starters to maintain intensity while losing weight.. got it! lol

[MuscleScience]

true, but gluconeogenisis is metabolically inefficient (and very very cost $ inefficient ,, meaning protein is way more expensive then carbs just to use as glucose) ,, I know of some guys that are on keto and they just slam 40 grams of dextrose or some fast acting carb pre-workout and get some of the benefits of glucose, but they have such a high work load and intensity that they burn through it and get back into ketosis in a couple hours.

I can’t go much over 30grams or I get kicked out. Wish I could tolerate more.

[Gallowmere]

true, but gluconeogenisis is metabolically inefficient (and very very cost $ inefficient ,, meaning protein is way more expensive then carbs just to use as glucose) ,, I know of some guys that are on keto and they just slam 40 grams of dextrose or some fast acting carb pre-workout and get some of the benefits of glucose, but they have such a high work load and intensity that they burn through it and get back into ketosis in a couple hours.

What you’re talking about is referred to as TKD (targeted ketogenic diet). Even long time keto advocate (and something of a guru) Luis Villasenor (darthluiggi on ketogains) has stated several times that his gym performance is noticeably improved by such.

I played with it, and it helped to a degree, but I still found it to he suboptimal for me, in the end. The most effective way that I found was to use glucose tabs made for diabetics, about 30 minutes before lifting. However, those things get stupid expensive fast, when you’re chewing on 50g worth every day. Classic Spree on the other hand, is nearly pure dextrose and cheap as hell.

[Clove1234]

This thread ended up having a lot of good information in it. Should just be a keto diet sticky.

To further Gearheadeds point, i do agree with him. Which is ultimately why i quit doing keto. It is not conducive to making gains in muscle or strength to any large degree.

Towards the end of my last keto diet i played around for two weeks with how many carbs i could take and whether it would knock me out of ketosis. I also experimented with what kinds of workouts would get me back into ketosis. Further I experimented with candy (fast acting glucose) before workouts and monitored what i could do if anything to be back into ketosis by the end of the workout. Seemed to me it would always be on a super heavy day, followed by HIIT of some sort.