06-25-2004, 05:49 PM #1New Member
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
really deep question about long term effects of natural growth
ok guys i have done my research and I have come to find alot of information on this board. i do have one big question that has still not been answered.
I know that you are not supposed to take steriods until you have reached your natural peak.i know that i havent reached my natural peak yet. i am 6'0 220 with 10%bf. I am 21 and am very serious about body building now and in the future.
question is: will taking steriods for a 6-8 week low dose cycle now affect my growth in the future. For example> if i gained 20 pounds in 8 weeks off of test cycle and kept 15. would i stay at 235 pounds until i did another cycle or will i eventually be able to make natural gains again after proper PCT?
in other words will taking 1 cycle of test shut down my natural growth b/c that is the impression i am getting from advice stating not to take AS until you are at your natural limit.
Last edited by serious22; 06-25-2004 at 05:53 PM.
06-25-2004, 06:00 PM #2New Member
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- Jun 2004
any advice would help?
06-25-2004, 06:10 PM #3
You obviosly have your head on straight to be on here and asking this...so, props there! But you know you really shouldnt touch AAS just yet, I think you just need affirmation. Take the next 2 years to really dial in your diet and training..no more hit and miss...time to dedicate yourself...eat/sleep/sh!t BBing...if you really strive to get it right, youll grow like youre on a cycle.
I say this at least once a day on here.........eating is the hardest part of BBing.
As for an 8 week Test cycle...well the only way a short cycle like that would work is if you used a short estered Test....but with that you'd have to shoot every day or at the very least every other day....
Do the right thing and wait....youll be glad you did.
06-25-2004, 06:22 PM #4Originally Posted by serious22
But I think you have confused growth plate closure with muscular hypertrophy limits... it is true that once you use AAS you will have sealed any chance for further growth in height via closure of the growth plates... that is if your endocrine system hasn't already sealed your fate... which eventually happens post-puberty...
06-25-2004, 06:52 PM #5New Member
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- Jun 2004
i am still a little confused/ does this mean that i want be able to make natural gains after cycle?
06-25-2004, 06:57 PM #6Originally Posted by serious22
06-25-2004, 07:00 PM #7Originally Posted by serious22
If you use AAS to go over your genetic limitations - then you can not further improve nor maintain most your gains [from AAS] because your body does not have enough naturally occuring androgens to preserve the added LBM. But what exactly is your genetic disposition/limitation for muscular hypertrophy is something you can't really be sure of... trying new training theories and diet strategies as you get bigger and leaner are paramount to chances at further progress...
06-25-2004, 07:01 PM #8Member
Originally Posted by serious22
- Join Date
- May 2004
06-25-2004, 07:54 PM #9
how do u know ur genetic limitations?
06-25-2004, 08:11 PM #10
I think it spossible to go over the genetic limitation, but as mentioned above you rbody will find it too hard to maintain those gains.
06-25-2004, 08:13 PM #11Originally Posted by Bruce willis
06-25-2004, 08:15 PM #12
I am going to attack this question from a different angle. I think the limitations set from doing steroids to early come in the form of connective tissue and joint strength. I believe that when one begins to grow exceptionally large and strong without having built a proper foundation they never recover to be able to get the most out of their body. Usually they stay injured and find they can never move the weight necessary to achieve their genetic potential or anything over it. This is an opinion and based on my own experience. Some people obviously can over come with genetics what others of us cannot but to me this is the biggest danger in size limitation.
06-25-2004, 08:28 PM #13
Good pointOriginally Posted by Rickson
And the fact that if you jump on AAS too fast (aside from not knowing other good fundamentals) you can really fuk up joints due to the accelerated growth/strength increases. Thankfully I was never using AAS while performing behind the neck movements like Pulldowns, Behind the Neck Presses and the old DB Shoulder Flyes... I learned these were damagin enough in a natural environment... had I been on exogenous andrgoens - I could have really messed things up... permanently.
But I think the big problem is not knowing how to properly train (and eat for the new size). I have seen many people on the sauce that still workout like a beginner... keeping any long term gains without AAS will be less likely unless they know how to up the intensity to keep a demand on the body to WANT the excess LBM... because as far as effeciency goes - it doesn't think it is necessary.
06-25-2004, 08:31 PM #14Originally Posted by Warrior
:spudnik4: good post..
i have always heard that with the use of AS you can gain up to 100lbs of body mass past your genetic limits...any truth to that?
06-25-2004, 08:35 PM #15
like say if my natural limits have me at 230 then i should be able to reach 330...
i think i read that in an article by art atwood...
06-25-2004, 08:36 PM #16Originally Posted by DADDYDBOL
Not everyone has the capability to be Markus Ruhl or Ronnie Coleman... or any other professional competitor... some of us just need to train hard and be reasonable about our expectations...
06-25-2004, 08:39 PM #17
warrior and rickson- you both make a very good point.. this is a pretty interesting thread.. maybe some vets can give their experiences. like breaks inbetween cycles, what kind of progress was made and what kind of training program was used.
i get a little discouraged now and again thinking ive reached my "limit" only to find i plateued- like you said warrior, it only took an adjustment in either my diet and or training to break through.. the few cycles i have done have been more than great- but the growing inbetween cycles are getting fewer and fewer......
06-25-2004, 08:40 PM #18Originally Posted by Warrior
right...you can't increase how much muscle there is just grow what you have...thx...good post...
06-25-2004, 11:03 PM #19
I read an article on the down regulation or androgen receptors and i think this may have somthing to do with this topic. The theory was that the reason we need to increase the dose of hormones may not be limited to the reason of down regulation of androgen receptors. But also the the addition of new receptors that grow when we increase our hormone levels. This would be one reason that we need to increase our doses from one cycle to another, so that we can accommodate the newly grown receptors. So if this theory is true it, I would think it would mean that with multiplying your receptors you would make your natural hormone levels less productive.
If someone knows what im talking about here they may be able to explain it better. Ill tell you though now that I have been cycling for years there is no chance that im gonna come off steroids and then further grow naturally.
06-25-2004, 11:28 PM #20Originally Posted by Anhydro78
As for "genetic limitations", it certainly does exist, but we have no idea where this is. We use this phrase only in the context of what we currently know about hypertrophy and methods of increasing it. "genetic limitations" haven't changed over 20 years, but our knowledge of nutrition and training has, and this has allowed us to be able to attain more mass (naturally or otherwise). there's no reason to believe that over the next 20 years we won't learn even more about how the body works and find ways to better optimize training and nutrition....I say this independent of exogenous androgen use.
When people say, "don't use AAS until you've reached your genetic potential", they actual mean to wait until you've reached an obvious plateau and have utilized as many of the modern methods as possible to induce more natural growth.
06-25-2004, 11:59 PM #21
So increased receptors plays no role in needing more hormones to stimulate growth??
06-26-2004, 08:01 AM #22Originally Posted by einstein1905
There is no such thing as genetic limit --> Well actually there is, but no one has ever reached it (Even not Ronny Coleman), you'll be suprised how much mass a human body can hold on too (be it fat, water or muscle).
What these guys mean is what is called "Hitting the wall" --> It means you have reached a point where it seems that you can not put on anymore mass.
I've read several studies indicating it is just a point where the body wants rest --> continous growth is very bad for the body and substantially limits your age potential (so at what age you will probably going to die if it is of natural causes).
It is just that if you have "Hit the wall" then you're body needs time to recover because the studies were talking about Telomere (the protein in cells that keeps the count on how many times the cell has multiplied) actually being regenerated (If we could find a way to do this then we would have found the fountain of youth!).
Cytokines (The messengersubstances of the Immunesystem) are then also used as reserves (you probably all know the newest "growth factor hype" Interleukine-15) and therefor growpotential is severely limited (Our immunesystem is always first priority --> Exactly the reason why if you supplement Glutamine while on cycle you maximize your gains seeing the immunesystem will use the Glutamine therefore leaving more protein available for muscle building)
In real Life I also see this theory confirmed knowing many people who were on a plateau after a year not training then going back growing again.
Or my old Freefight-teacher who was on a plateau, but continouing training for 4 years only getting stronger and lowering bodyfat but now there seems no end to his growth again.
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