07-15-2004, 12:07 AM #1
07-15-2004, 12:20 AM #2
07-15-2004, 12:45 AM #3Originally Posted by Anhydro78
07-15-2004, 12:46 AM #4
07-15-2004, 12:47 AM #5
07-15-2004, 12:50 AM #6Originally Posted by Anhydro78
07-15-2004, 02:05 AM #7Registered User
- Join Date
- Oct 2002
it causes prgesterone gyno.. where the nipples kind of come out of their sockets and hang out. test gyno is another thing.. where your chest will look more like a tit. its 2 diffrent things. theres always bromo to stop progst.. gyno.
07-15-2004, 02:43 AM #8
Some myths uncovered!
All 19-nor-androgens (So chemical structure Family of e.g. Deca -Durabolin and Trenbolone ) can cause progesteron induced gyno.
19-nor-androgens are also called 19-nor-testosteron and this is because they are identical in structure to testosteron except for a missing carbon atom at the 19th position.
(all anabolic /androgenic steroids we know are based on testosteron except for ethylestrenol which is based on progesteron)
Nonsense that Deca doesn't cause gyno! --> It causes both forms!
Sure Deca has only 20% of the capacity (of Test) to form estrogens, but by it being prostagenic (meaning it can bind to the progesteron-receptors, progesteron in women causes breasts to grow and the milkproduction to start, so in men it does the same and couple that with the estradiol + estron production and things won't get any better) it is even harder to treat Deca-Gyno!
Now with the exception of Oxabolone (which I have here lying just waiting to be converted and shot in my body )
And trestolone (Unalkylated Cheque drops , which need to be injected, so no more crazy livertoxicity!), all 19-nor-androgens can cause a rather nasty form of gyno...
Now the thing is that ProgesteronGyno is only induced if enough estrogen is present.
Now I want to set things straight:
All performance enhancing steroids (with the exception of about 3) can cause gyno!
Now You are probably wondering --> Then what about Halotestin , Masteron , Anavar , Oxabolone etc.
In our community and on our boards common thing is people think DHT-derivatives (e.g Masteron, Anavar, Winstrol etc.) cannot cause gyno!
This is not true! -->
The more powerful the androgen, the more it stimulates the estradiol-receptor
You want some real-life proove? --> Well we had a few times that people come on this board having used only Winstrol
(which through another pathway; is even more prone to cause elevated estrogenlevels, then one would expect from it's androgenic potency)
and end up having mild gyno --> What does everybody say?
It is fake Winstrol! (while fact is Winstrol is too cheap to be worth faking!)
Not only that --> Winstrol is notorious for it's ability to enlarge prostatesize in men who are genetically prone for prostate-problems.
But DHT in all medical Textbooks does not cause enlargement of the prostate, estrogens tend to be the cause of that!
The thing is that we rarely see DHT-derivatives cause gyno is because they have the ability to block aromatase (the enzyme that converts compounds to estrogens); exactly why Proviron (another DHT-compound) is used as an anti-estrogen in some cycles...
(Too bad the prostate-problems can still occur when using some androgens!)
Roselli CE. The effect of anabolic-androgenic steroids on aromatase activity and androgen receptor binding in the rat preoptic area. Brain Res. 1998 May 11;792(2):271-6
07-15-2004, 04:14 AM #9
God dam'nit KOM, you beat me to it. That was exactly what I was going to say............... I think.
07-15-2004, 05:13 AM #10Originally Posted by SV-1
07-15-2004, 05:21 AM #11Originally Posted by kingofmasters
It's just that a lot of well known steroid books and articles don't mention this stuff. Take anabolics or WAR for example. Where do you get your info from?
07-15-2004, 06:54 AM #12Anabolic Member
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
Yea I take b6 to help minimize progest gyno.. I hope it works
07-15-2004, 05:13 PM #13
So are you saying King of masters that Tren unaromitized can cause gyno. Just asking from the reading I have done it is impossible to aromitize.So can it activate the receptor without aromitizing?????
here is some reading that I have come across
Structurally trenbolone is a derivative of nandrolone , carrying two additional double carbon bonds at positions 9 and 11 (hence the prefix "tren", short for tri-en). The activity of trenbolone differs from that of its parent hormone considerably however. To begin with, trenbolone cannot aromatize to estrogen. The delta-9 group present on its structure occupies a bond necessary for aromatization of the A-Ring to be possible. Unless this group is removed metabolically, which it does not appear to be, estrogen synthesis is impossible in the body. Although nandrolone is a weak substrate for aromatase, estrogen levels can still rise during use. With trenbolone we actually expect a lowering of serum estrogen levels, as it should suppress endogenous testosterone release (the primary substrate for estradiol in men).
It has been reported in other bodybuilding literature that trenbolone does not exhibit any activity as a progestin in the body. I am not certain where this belief originated, as trenbolone does appear to exhibit the classic progesterone receptor binding ability that is characteristic of nandrolone and its derivatives. One study looking at the bovine uterine progesterone receptor for example found trenbolone to be a very potent binder, startlingly even more so than progesterone itself (4). Another looking at the binding of various compounds to the androgen, estrogen, progestin, mineral corticoid and glucocorticoid receptors found trenbolone to be a more potent binder of the progestin receptor than nandrolone (5), a steroid normally noted for its usual activity in this regard. What does this mean for trenbolone? I donít think it really means that much. Trenbolone clearly doesnít cause gyno, water retention or fat buildup, which one might attribute to estrogenic or progestational activity. So whatever slight action it does have as a progestin on paper doesnít amount to all that much in the real world. The absence of estrogen may be a significant factor, as progesterone is believed to cause gyno by enhancing estrogenís stimulation of mammary gland growth (6). Perhaps when trenbolone is taken with other aromatizable compounds it could affect a personís sensitivity level to gyno and water/fat retention. This seems logical, at least in a technical sense, although admittedly I have seen no evidence to support this.
07-15-2004, 05:22 PM #14Originally Posted by Anhydro78
07-15-2004, 08:31 PM #15
This is how I read the last line.
Perhaps when trenbolone is taken with other aromatizable compounds it could affect a personís sensitivity level to gyno and water/fat retention. This seems logical, at least in a technical sense, although admittedly I have seen no evidence to support this.
I didnt take it that this guy wrote this acticle and stated in the last line that he has no evidence to support his theory!!!
Tell me if this is all wrong. I thought that just because a substance can bind to a receptor doesnt mean that it will activate it. Actually just the opposite it will block it from being activated???????
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