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  1. #1
    SV-1's Avatar
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    Nolva, and it's ability to fu*k up your eyes

    Here's some info people may find interesting.

    Around 5 years ago I had LASIK eye surgery. All in all it went well, and when it was all said and done I ended up seeing slightly better than 20/20.

    Fast forward a little more than 3 years later and while doing a cycle I started to get gyno in my left pec, so I upped my nolva dose to 80mg ED. A week later my vision become blurry, and it's never gotten any better. I'm not sure if my surgery had anything to do with complicating the situation, but there's no doubt the nolva fu*ked up my eyesight. And for those who are wondering, this was around 10 months before I took my first DNP cap. And no amount of DNP I've taken since has worsened my condition.

    Tamoxifen and Your Eyes

    by Dana Isherwood

    http://www.bcaction.org/Pages/Search...etter025G.html

    The insert that comes with tamoxifen states under the heading of WARNINGS "visual disturbance including corneal changes, cataracts and retinopathy have been reported in patients receiving NOLVADEX " (tamoxifen citrate). Although information is provided under the heading of ADVERSE REACTIONS, ocular toxicity is not listed. This raises three very important questions:

    1. Are visual disturbances a rare event?
    2. Do they occur at low doses (i.e., 20 mg/day)? and
    3. If they occur, are they reversible?

    During 1978 to 1990, only six publications; and eight patients with ocular toxicity were reported in the English language literature, thus suggesting that this adverse side effect is either a rare event or underreported. That it can occur at low doses is documented. In Pavlidis et al [Cancer, Vol. 69, No. 12, pp. 2961-2964 (1993)], researchers reported that out of 63 patients receiving 20 mg/day for 5 to 51 months, 4 patients (6%) developed decreased visual acuity, macular edema, and retinal opacities. Discontinuation of the drug resulted in a reversal of the decreased visual acuity and macular edema, but the retinal opacities remained.

    At the American Association for Cancer Research annual meeting in San Francisco April 10-13, 1994, researchers from the University Hospital in Zurich, Switzerland, reported that not only does ocular toxicity occur at Low doses, but that the reversibility of visual symptoms is dependent on total cumulative dose. Twenty patients with visual symptoms; caused by tamoxifen were studied. Results showed that in 85% of patients deterioration of vision was the first symptom. Corneal, retinal and optic nerve abnormalities were reported in 60% of patients on less than 10 grams in total, 20% of patients on less than 100 grams in total, and in none of the patients taking more than 100 grams in total. At 20 mg/day, this equates to taking tamoxifen for somewhere between 1.4 years (10 g) to 13.7 years (100 g).

    Dr. Piotr Szczesny who reported these results in San Francisco also mentioned that he has found that, since most breast cancer patients are women over 50, many doctors who are not well versed in this potentially devastating side effect will assume that the lack of visual acuity reported by their patients are the result of aging eyes rather than tamoxifen. These women will continue to take tamoxifen, thus increasing their chance of permanent injury.

    BOTTOM LINE: Ocular toxicity from tamoxifen is a rare side effect with a potential for permanent damage to the eyes if not recognized early. If you are on tamoxifen, have your eyes examined annually. If you have any problems at all with your vision, see an ophthalmologist as soon as possible.


    Edited to add this info that was posted by Born2Juice4Ever on IFL.
    The article linked to below proposes that the ocular damage caused by tamoxifen is due to oxidative stress. The authors suggest that the use of antioxidants may help prevent such damage.

    Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2004 Jul;229(7):607-15.

    Oxidative stress plays an important role in the pathogenesis of drug-induced retinopathy.

    Toler SM.

    Clinical Safety and Risk Management, Pfizer Inc., Pfizer Global Research and Development, 50 Pequot Avenue, New London, CT 06320. steven_m_toler@groton.pfizer.com

    Several pharmaceutical agents have been associated with rare but serious retinopathies, some resulting in blindness. Little is known of the mechanism(s) that produce these injuries. Mechanisms proposed thus far have not been embraced by the medical and scientific communities. However, preclinical and clinical data indicate that oxidative stress may contribute substantially to iatrogenic retinal disease. Retinal oxidative stress may be precipitated by the interaction of putative retinal toxins with the ocular redox system. The retina, replete with cytochromes P450 and myeloperoxidase, may serve to activate xenobiotics to oxidants, resulting in ocular injury. These activated agents may directly form retinal adducts or may diminish ocular reduced glutathione concentrations. Data are reviewed that suggest that indomethacin, tamoxifen, thioridazine, and chloroquine all produce retinopathies via a common mechanism-they produce ocular oxidative stress

    Full article can be accessed here:

    http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/full/229/7/607


    Edited to add this info that was posted by Liftsiron on SBI.
    Cancer. 1988 Jan 1;61(1):33-5.

    Reversible ocular toxicity related to tamoxifen therapy.

    Ashford AR, Donev I, Tiwari RP, Garrett TJ.

    Department of Medicine, Harlem Hospital Center, New York, NY 10037.

    A 42-year-old woman with metastatic breast cancer developed bilateral optic disc swelling, retinal hemorrhages, and visual impairment three weeks after starting treatment with low doses of tamoxifen. Neurologic evaluation failed to provide an explanation for the ocular findings which resolved completely after cessation of tamoxifen therapy. This case suggests that tamoxifen has the potential for causing serious ophthalmologic toxicity which may be reversible if recognized early.

    Long term studies in breast cancer patients using tamoxifen have shown an incidence of ocular toxicity of about 6%, with retinal opacity being the irreversible side effect. Other optic problems seem to resolve when the drug is withdrawn.

  2. #2
    fast_eddie's Avatar
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    i had no idea of that side effect...makes me think twice about starting my nolva !

  3. #3
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    interesting

  4. #4
    Fpot66 is offline Junior Member
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    I never noticed anything like that from Nolva but I did get some pretty cool effects from the Clomid I was running during my last PCT.

    FPot66

  5. #5
    Random is offline RETIRED VET
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    SV, so has your vision come back to normal now?

  6. #6
    Dally's Avatar
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    I can barely even see this!

  7. #7
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    holy crap, this is not good

  8. #8
    Titan1 is offline Member
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    strange i have only heard this about Clomid that it can mess up your eyesight

  9. #9
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    clomid made me mess up someone elses vision... lol

  10. #10
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    definately a wake up call, had no clue.. - i will not forget this! very important to know!
    good post! thank you

  11. #11
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    WTF this is makin me think twice about using nolva at all...but it didnt go into detail about how rare it is..and how often this occurs in people who do use nolva....how rare is this side effect???? anybody got that answer...???>>>!!!

  12. #12
    SV-1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainDominate
    SV, so has your vision come back to normal now?
    No, it's still exactly the same.

    Guys, from what I understand this is a very rare side effect of nolva. But rare or not it's something people should be aware of, cuz it does happen, and it happened to me.

  13. #13
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    nice post sv-1

  14. #14
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    Excellent post! Gonna have to look into that more. I never took as much as 80mg/day, but jeez, that's pretty scary.... (my eyes are already f*cked up anyway, I don't want to go totally blind).

  15. #15
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    good post

  16. #16
    k@m NYC's Avatar
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    ive been running nolva 20mg ed for the past 8 wks.. im fine.. thank god.

  17. #17
    SV-1's Avatar
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    Bump for more info.

    By Liftsiron on SBI.


    Cancer. 1988 Jan 1;61(1):33-5.

    Reversible ocular toxicity related to tamoxifen therapy.

    Ashford AR, Donev I, Tiwari RP, Garrett TJ.

    Department of Medicine, Harlem Hospital Center, New York, NY 10037.

    A 42-year-old woman with metastatic breast cancer developed bilateral optic disc swelling, retinal hemorrhages, and visual impairment three weeks after starting treatment with low doses of tamoxifen. Neurologic evaluation failed to provide an explanation for the ocular findings which resolved completely after cessation of tamoxifen therapy. This case suggests that tamoxifen has the potential for causing serious ophthalmologic toxicity which may be reversible if recognized early.

    Long term studies in breast cancer patients using tamoxifen have shown an incidence of ocular toxicity of about 6%, with retinal opacity being the irreversible side effect. Other optic problems seem to resolve when the drug is withdrawn.

  18. #18
    Baller9's Avatar
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    bump

  19. #19
    rimz is offline Junior Member
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    I actually noticed my eyes are worse in the past week or 2. Guess it is from the nolva I'm on right now. Guess I need to get as many cycles in before I decide to do Lasik so I don't have to go again.

  20. #20
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    damn i noticed my right eye twitching like mad the past 2 days but im only takin 20mg a day...i wonder if i should stop and only use it gyno is ever a prob

  21. #21
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    Its not that rare, when on 150 mg of Clomid my vision got a little ****ed. Its 90% better now, but doesnt seem crystal clear quite yet. No more high dose of it ever, vision is too important

  22. #22
    ScottyShotty is offline Associate Member
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    I'm taking 55 mg of nolv on my cycle because of gyno issues. I've been on for almost 5 weeks. No problems yet, but my eyes are so F@#kdd anyway I dont think it would matter

  23. #23
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    this stuff is scary.

  24. #24
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    goddam i JUST had custom wavefront lasik 3 weeks ago... cost me like 3000$ for the best doctor and machines... and im running 40mg nolva ED now in PCT... shit...

  25. #25
    Lavinco's Avatar
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    SV-1,
    you need to make sure that you are not a diebetic. I am and recently found out. Uncontrolled sugar levels will **** up your vision even one day from the next.

    I have an eye exam tommorrow and just had one in april before I knew I was diebetic. My sugar was out of control and I didn't know it. My vision is worse now in just the 4 months I didn't control my sugar.

    It may not hurt to see if this is your problem. If diebetic, your vision could get worse after lasik.

  26. #26
    jdh's Avatar
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    since i started taking it for the first time last week(20mg eod) ive been noticing what seems like pressure in my eyes. i had no idea it might be the nolva until now. maybe ill try liquidex.

  27. #27
    needmorestrength's Avatar
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    Very informative thanx for the info

  28. #28
    Drummerboy's Avatar
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    im sticking to just arimidex . im not chancing my eyes.

  29. #29
    MoneyAddyct is offline Member
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    I always thought it was Clomid that had the potential to do this, not Nolva. Interesting read.

  30. #30
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    Now everyones gonna be scared running there PCT and using nolva during their cycles

    There's always some serious side effects that can become present with everything.

  31. #31
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    ppl should be scared, and aware, of all possible sides. I dont know about you, but my eyes are more valuable than muscle.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy
    goddam i JUST had custom wavefront lasik 3 weeks ago... cost me like 3000$ for the best doctor and machines... and im running 40mg nolva ED now in PCT... shit...
    I had mine done on monday ,, no shit this is a kick in the ass

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy
    im sticking to just arimidex. im not chancing my eyes.
    Will this start back natural Test Production....

  34. #34
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    I had lasik done about 5 years ago myself. I have had issues with my eyes ever since. They are generally very dry. But for some strange reason I can go a month or two with very good vision, but then another month or two with crappy, blurry vision. I have yet to figure out why this happens. I only recently started using Nolva and Clomid, so that wasn't the problem. But right now my eyesight is the shits. I am very tired of squinting, actually. I am tempted to get some damm contacts again just for these times when I can't see very well (I'm guessing 20/40 or so).

  35. #35
    highnmighty is offline Associate Member
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    This is interesting that this posted, because I recentley just got done with nolva and have noticed my eye sight is worse. I was running 40mg for 2 weeks, then 20mg another 2 weeks. I can tell you my pupils were dilated, in fact one pupil was larger than the other sometimes. Of course, when I stopped the nolva they went back to normal. However, my vision is blurred.

  36. #36
    Drummerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perrypup
    Will this start back natural Test Production....
    the best thing to wake up your balls is HCG . Nolva should be used with HCG. But, after im done the HCG, I just use an AI (arimidex , aromasin , letrozol). The less nolva i take the better, dont want to mess my eyes.

  37. #37
    Heavy is offline Junior Member
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    Clomid and HCG is effective enough for PCT, and Arimidex is also usefull.

    http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBo...stosterone.htm

    FUC* nolvadex .

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavy
    Clomid and HCG is effective enough for PCT, and Arimidex is also usefull.

    http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBo...stosterone.htm

    FUC* nolvadex.
    They say clomid is worse for your eyes then nolvadex ... This is how I look at it... Big ol' bitch titties or a slight chance at some eye problems? I dont have to think very hard on this one. I must be one of the lucky ones that dnp or nolvadex does not effect my sight. (once got blurry vision with clomid)

  39. #39
    Perrypup's Avatar
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    I Guess this is a case of to each their own = still confused but will figure out in the next 6weeks which way i will go. I got clomid-nolva and liqiudex so i can be sure to do the right one when it comes time..

  40. #40
    Drummerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavy
    Clomid and HCG is effective enough for PCT, and Arimidex is also usefull.

    http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBo...stosterone.htm

    FUC* nolvadex.
    obviously you dont know what your talking about.

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