Thread: cran/ala question.............
08-10-2002, 04:32 PM #1
im getting ready to start my next cycle soon(dbol , enan, fina, anavar ).
and im wanting opinions on how much ala or r-ala and cranberry extract to run during the cycle. i havent run fina or anavar in a long while, so this stack is a ways from the norm for me.
all opinions are appreciated.
08-10-2002, 04:42 PM #2
08-11-2002, 06:30 AM #3
thanks bro, i appreciate the info on the r-ala. i was going to run the cranberry extract to protect the kidneys while on the fina. im not sure how much i need though..........anyone else?
08-11-2002, 11:15 AM #4Junior Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
I am assuming that you are using the ALA for liver protection...
here's a study that says original(racemic) ALA is better for antioxidant/liver protection...
personally I feel that original ALA is much more effective....and much more cost effective...
Originally posted by Abcession from BBX
There's been a lot of talk lately, backed up by legitimate research, proving that the R form of ALA may be more beneficial, not to mention a bit more costly than getting the R and S mix.
Maybe we should all save a bit of hard-earned cash and read this:
Combined non-enzymic and enzymic reduction favors bioactivation of racemic lipoic acid: an advantage of a racemic drug? Biewenga, Gerreke Ph.; Haenen, Guido R. M. M.; Groen, Brenda H.; Biewenga, Jeike E.; Van Grondelle, Rienk; Bast, Aalt. Department of Pharmacochemistry, Division of Molecular Pharmacology, Leiden/Amsterdam Center for Drug Research, Amsterdam, Neth. Chirality (1997), 9(4), 362-366.
For the antioxidant effect of lipoic acid, reduction to dihydrolipoic acid is considered to be important. Dihydrolipoamide dehydrogenase (LipHD) preferentially reduces R-lipoic acid and in a subsequent reaction, and R-dihydrolipoic acid formed may non-enzymically reduce S-lipoic acid. In vitro, it was found that S-lipoic acid is reduced by LipDH using R-lipoic acid as a catalyst. The non-enzymic dithiol-disulfide reaction leads to synergistic redn. of the enantiomers which can explain the higher antioxidant activity of racemic lipoic acid found in vivo (Maitra et al. Biochem. Biophys. Res. Commun. 221:422-429, 1996) in comparison to the enantiomers. Lipoic acid is therapeutically active in several diseases via antioxidant activity. These findings suggest that racemic lipoic acid can be therapeutically more active than the separate enantiomers.
08-11-2002, 12:09 PM #5
thanks bro, i'll look around a little more(based on your post) before i make up my mind on which way to go on the ala.
i cant believe no one is using or has used cranberry to protect their kidneys though. since im not getting a dosage response here, i think i'll just start with 1000mg ed and work it upwards if necessary. if anyone can give me a dosage based on their experiences i would appreciate the responses.
08-11-2002, 12:32 PM #6
Hey bro, Im running 2000mgs ALA ed. And have dropped my bf down to 13%. I totally recommend it to use. Here is Big Cats profile. Might give u a better idea on ALA.
This is part 2 of 2. Click HERE for part one.
Before we get into ALA, let's take a look at what happens to food when it enters the body.
A normal meal:
Food is consumed.
This food is converted into glucose for energy.
Insulin is released by the pancreas to shuttle the glucose into muscle and fat cells (assuming liver glycogen levels are full). Once the muscle cells are full, all excess glucose is shuttled to fat cells.
Now let's look at a meal taken with ALA:
Food is consumed.
This food is converted into glucose for energy.
Insulin is released by the pancreas to shuttle the glucose into muscle and fat cells. Once the muscle cells are full, all excess glucose is shuttled to fat cells.
Now this is where ALA comes into play. In order for glucose to be carried into cells, it must be attached to insulin. ALA is shown to have an insulin mimicking effect. So then more glucose would be shuttled to fat cells because the muscle cells are full, right? Wrong! Studies show that ALA increases Glut-4 transporters on the outside of muscle cells. This means more glucose can be shuttled into muscle cells and away from fat cells. Studies show that the amount of glucose shuttled to your muscles can increase from 50-60%. For those who are not that good in math: This means if you ate 100 carbs and originally without ALA, 40 grams of glucose went to your muscles cells and the rest, 60 grams, went to fat cells. Now, by supplementing with ALA, you have the power to send 60 grams of glucose and only 40 to fat cells. That is a big difference! How you ask.
ALA has an insulin like effect. It does not take the place of insulin, only mimics it. (To learn about insulin and its effects you can read my Insulin article). ALA has been shown to increase glucose uptake by mimicking insulin and shuttling it to Glut-4 receptors as mentioned above. Because ALA has increased the number of Glut-4 receptors on the outside of the muscle, more glucose can be absorbed.
Effects of Increased Glucose Uptake
This increase of glucose does many positive things. These include:
Less fat accumulation
Increases Amino Acid transport
Increased insulin sensitivity
The increased pump is due to the increase in glucose uptake. Not only does this feel great, but it also contributes to muscle growth. By increasing the muscle cells volume, but nutrients are able to be shuttled to the muscle. Hence increased muscle growth.
Less Fat Accumulation
Again, due to the increase in glucose uptake by muscles cells, less glucose is stored as fat. ALA also lowers one's blood sugar levels, creating a more suitable atmosphere for fat burning.
Increased Amino Acid and Creatine Uptake
This comes back to the increased pump. Because the muscle cells are in an enlarged state, more amino acids and creatine can reach them. Insulin increases amino acid and creatine uptake. Remember, ALA mimics insulin, which means it also increases amino acid and creatine uptake. There are a ton of creatine products on the market that are loaded with sugar. This is because sugar causes an insulin spike, which carries the creatine to muscle cells. The problem with this is an excess amount of sugar with cause you to gain fat. By supplementing with ALA you can carry more creatine to muscle cells without swallowing 75+ grams of sugar. I still recommend taking a simple sugary carb after your workout, but ALA can increase creatine uptake while you take a lower amount of sugar. This is very important for those who are cutting. They can get the same effects post workout without having to worry about storing excess carbs as fat.
Increased Insulin Sensitivity
This is great news for bodybuilders! When I go on a bulking cycle. I find that about after two months, my gains slow drastically. One way to combat this is to go on a brief cutting cycle to and your insulin sensitivity rebuild. Supplementing with ALA could allow you to add more mass as a result of your insulin sensitivity not reducing.
Results During Cutting vs. Bulking
Results will differ depends on your diet. If you are bulking, you can expect to less fat and more muscle gain because of ALA nutrient partitioning effect.
Results from cutting are increased fat loss and a muscle sparing effect. Because your muscles are storing more glucose, your muscles will not become as depleted as they usually do when cutting. This helps you look full and not flat.
Dosage (per day)
200-600 mg will increase insulin sensitivity and lower blood glucose levels. Lower than 200 mg won't give you noticeable effects, except for ALA antioxidant properties. 600 mg-1200 mg will give you an increase in #1 1200-2000 will give you an increase in #1 and more noticeable fat loss. 3000 mg is "said" (Not a fact, just what has worked best for ALA users) to be the ideal dose to assist in massive fat loss, increase in insulin sensitivity, and increasing glucose.
I got these doses from experienced ALA users and other information I've read. They are a general ranges. It is best to divide you dosages up throughout the day. For example, if you are taking 1000 mg a day. You could take:
300 mg with breakfast
200 mg with a carb meal
300 mg post workout
200 mg with last meal
When buying ALA, you have to be careful. ALA is very unstable and rapidly degrades when exposed to the outside atmosphere. Some people think that as long as it is not exposed to atmospheric conditions for extended periods of time, it will be fine. But even a brief period of time can cause massive degeneration of the product. That is why it is not wise to buy ALA in powder form. It is most likely useless. An especially big no-no is buying creatine products with ALA already in them. The only thing you are paying for is the creatine, because there isn't any ALA in those tubs. The solution, buy ALA in capsules! Most companies are very careful when capping their ALA. AST, for example, uses ALA that is vacuum packed in UV protected plastic. Therefore, I do not recommend buying ALA from no name companies. I'm not saying their ALA is not quality ALA, but it's your money and I know I'd rather play it safe.
Well there is what ALA can do for you. In my next article, we will look at different tests and scientific data that backs up what is stated above.
08-11-2002, 02:34 PM #7
Here is someone's test results showing what has been widely speculated. ALA is a poor liver protectant and there are better choices out there. Here is why rALA blows ALA away in terms of Glucose uptake.
r-ALA is the pure form of ALA found in nature. ALL other ALA products are a racemic mixture of the natural R and the synthetic S enantiomer. The S has little or no beneficial effects and is often detrimental to the activity of the R. In this racemic mixture half of the ALA is relatively useless and in many respects working against the other half. We have removed the unnatural S enantiomer and bring you the pure R enantiomer. Which is the one that has been shown to improve glucose uptake, insulin sensitivity, mitochondrial activity, and free radical elimination.
Test results showing ALA as a weak liver protectant:
Blood Work Done:anavar Shuts You Down, And Ala Isnt Worth Much As Liver Protector (post #1)
i'm sorry to tell you this but this is just the truth: this is my blood work done just before starting the cycle: NORMAL VALUES
COLESTEROL 172 less than 200
HDL 73 more than 55
LDL 102 less than 150
TESTOSTERONE 5.5 2.4-8.3
LH 4.6 1.5-9.3
FSH 6.7 1.4-18.1
GOT 21 less than37
GPT 24 less than 40
so you see everithing was normal, and this is the blood work done after 32 days (5th week) of 40mgs/day of anavar (spanish generic)
It was the only drug taken besides a xenadrine eca
so as you can see it did not have a great effect on the lipides (even though HDL 24 is way too low) but it totally shut down my natural test production. It has also increased my liver enzimes, nothing serious, but this prooves ala (used every single day between 800 and 2000mgs a day) is not that effective, sice once i got the same liver values from dbol without using anything. Also it shows oxandrolone is not so mild on the liver as everybody calims. I'm sorry to tell you this, because the results were great. I dieted all the time gained 3 pounds on the scale and went from 13% bf to 7%, and, belive me, by the mirrowr that 's simply amazing (other fat burning prodoucts like eca and yohimburn were used) i'm sorry to say this aslo because i like ala as a supplement but i can't say the same regarding liver protection. I will end my cycle tomorrow, and i will have to do a full clomid therapy. When i did this tests i was hoping not to even use it and just throw in some tribulus i had, but it will obviousy not be the case.One more thing the 40 mgs of anavar were split throughout the day. I hope this informations help
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08-11-2002, 02:46 PM #8
im going to order r-ala for liver protection, and cranberry extract for the ole kidneys.
dosages will be:
r-ala 2000mg ed
c.e. 1000 mg ed
if i feel i need more i'll bump it up.
thanks for all the help guys, i wish i could get a ballpark dose on the cran though. ive never run it with fina, so i have no idea if 1000mg is enough, but i will see.........
08-11-2002, 04:33 PM #9Junior Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
Sorry....but ALA has been used in Europe for many years to treat liver ailments. A simple search on one of the search engines will bring you much info and proven clinical studies about ALA's effect on the liver.
The part you quoted about the r-ALA was taken from the people who sell it's web site.....not an unbiased opinion if you ask me...
Plus the example used says they used between 800-2000 mg/day....well that's more than a slight variance....there is a big difference between 800 and 2000 mg daily. And I have seen many posts where people used ALA and had good liver values after or during a cycle.
PLUS....the above research study says that r/s ALA(original ALA) worked better than the seperate enantiomers as an anti-oxidant/liver protector.......but believe the hype if you want.
08-11-2002, 05:25 PM #10
I agree that r-ALA is not a good liver protectant I just disagree that ALA is one. There are much better products out there. The discription of r-ALA was taken from AF's web site and if you click on the more detail button you can read quite a bit about the science behind it but would be very difficult to post. Again if the purpose of the ALA/rALA is simply for liver protection then I think neither is the best choice. If you want the glycogen uptake then r-ALA is the best choice. By the way my Dr. prescribes Tyler liver detox and many do take ALA with it. Have you ever taken rALA Iceburg?
08-12-2002, 01:28 PM #11
ok then i will use tyler's for the liver.
i thought ala was supposed to be the shit for liver protection. maybe i'll just go back to milk thistle........hehe.
08-12-2002, 01:42 PM #12
the tyler ld and the milk thistle work well for your liver on the dbol ,and anavar
the tren as you know will effect your kidneys.a friend of mine gets kidney infections all the time(not from as use) and the dr tells him to just drink cranberry juice(ocean spray) a few big glasses a day,so that may be an option instead of cranberry extract.
cranberry juice acts like a douch for your kidneys.
i dont really like ala or ala-r for the simple reason that first its proven liver cleaner,and its not.its used for slimming down bf%,and its not.etc
its too hard to keep up on what its for so i just dont use it.
08-12-2002, 04:10 PM #13
you think the cranberry extract will do the same thing for me as the juice? i already ordered some, but it was dirt cheap. so its not a big deal if it wont work the same.
i can always get the cranberry juice if it dosent.
08-12-2002, 05:52 PM #14
im a believer in" if it dosent kill you it will make you stronger"
so i would do both.
the reason i think the juice works is because it actually flushes you out but if you add the extract it will make a higher consentrate,and who knows, it might work better
08-13-2002, 05:07 PM #15
thanks bro, i will run both, along with the tylers..........
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