Thread: Heart Damage Clenbuterol
02-07-2003, 06:48 PM #1Junior Member
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- Oct 2002
Heart Damage Clenbuterol
Did any body read the article in Muscular Development about clenbuterol damaging heart and skeletal muscles?
I wish they would print more info about the test like doses and length of test.
Has anyboy else heard of this other than in the MD article?
02-07-2003, 06:58 PM #2
Clen carries a lot of the same risks of ECA and other CNS stimulators which we know can damage the heart in high dosages. I'd be curious as to the dosages they used in these trials. I am sure it's much higher then what most of us use?
02-07-2003, 07:22 PM #3
If i'm not mistaken, and i very well could be, most of the studies associating clen usage with heart damage come from animal studies, in which they are given dosages (pound for pound) that I've never heard a human even remotely considering. OF course, this also assumes that the effects are the same pound for pound, so we can't be certain. However, I'm sticking by my guns that a plurality of these studies, if not overwhelming majority, are strictly based on animal studies at MEGA dosages. But, as a poster above states, the risk is there, as is the case with ECA.
02-08-2003, 03:44 AM #4
Actually, chronic use of any sympathomimetic drug can have potential to induce cardiomyopathy. I won't go into detailed mechanisms but if you think of a person who has congestive heart failure, look at the preceeding pathology and neurohormonal mechanisms involved. Basically in CHF, the heart is not pumping blood effeciently to meet O2 demand by the body. So what does the body do in response? It uses compensatory mechanisms to increase cardiac efficiency by 1) ventricular dilation, AKA Frank Starling Law 2) increased activity of the sympathetic nervous system (biggie) 3)ventricular hypertrophy (related also to hypertension). All three of these compensatory elements also tend to increase the oxygen demand by the myocardium. Of the three compensatory mechanisms, the increase in sympathetic activity is the most acute and affects not only the myocardium (increased heart rate, contractile force and rate of fiber shortening) but also the arteries and veins. The increase in arterial tone or constriction (afterload) helps to maintain pressure and flow to essential organs such as brain, but eventually may become EXCESSIVE and lead to decreased renal blood flow, sensed by the kidneys and in turn tries to compensate by volume expansion (RAAS,etc), and increased venous tone increases venous pressure, thereby augmenting venous return (preload) to the heart and enhancing ventricular filling and performance. You can begin to see the vicious cycle? Over time the increased catecholamine release and subsequent cascades of compensatory events involving Renin Angiotensin Aldosterone System, vasocostriction, alterations in blood volume and various other neurohormonal aspects/mediators (although initially intended to actually help the heart) lead to CHF or related disorders.
So you are probably thinking what does this have to do with sympathomimetic drugs? Exactly this same mechanism. Not all sympathomimetics are the same, I wont explain them here, and I am not saying that all will do this. But I have seen first hand, a young man (mid twenties) in clinic with CHF because he was a chronic methamphetamine user!? Scary! (of course he may have had other precipitating factors/comorbidities), but primary morbidity was linked to excessive meth use. But the good thing is that you were asking about clen . Although clen is referred as a stimulant, and it does increase O2 consumption and lipolysis, it acts via what seems to be mainly beta 3 receptors in fat cells, side note: (Propranolol, beta 1 and 2 antagonist,does not seem to reverse the protein anabolic effects of clenbuterol in skeletal muscle and this is why we think that clen is not working through beta-2 receptors). But clen does seem to produce the nervousness, tremors and and other effects associated with CNS adrenergic stimulation (so it may invoke other receptors depending on dose etc.) But like said above, most studies of clen have been done in animals, but also remember we can correlate the basic physiology of animals to humans in some extent. So my point is that 1) yes, crhonic/excessive use of CNS stimulants (depending on type,dose,duration) can lead to cardiac problems, but for most healthy people using reasonable doses/durations should be ok. Know your limits. 2)Clen may seem to have less cardiac effects than other stimulants such ECA, phentermine, and especially amphetamines. You will find literature out there, but you need to take the time to search for it and be able to decide for yourself if it is credible. You may want to review the pathology of CHF and related cardiac disorders (I have, time and time again, and it is still intense) because in science, we are now learning that these neurohormonal mechanisms (adrenergic stimulation-->increased catecholamine concentrations -most CNS stimulants do this by one mechanism or another, Renin system etc.) do to play a primary role in understanding the pathology behind CHF/cardiomyopathy. It is complex system of events. But if you are in good health (relatively speaking), using mild CNS stimulating (adrenergic) agents in reasonable regimens should be ok. Like anything, just don't over do it and listen to your body.
Last edited by ichabodcrane; 02-08-2003 at 03:50 AM.
02-08-2003, 05:39 AM #5
02-09-2003, 08:51 AM #6
I read that article too, real breif, and did not get into the trials details. I would agree, moderation is the key to using Clen . Only hit it for two weeks at a time and give your body rest between using it.
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