Thread: DNP and Insulin bridge
02-17-2003, 10:22 AM #1Junior Member
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DNP and Insulin bridge
I grabbed this from anabolic extreme and was wondering what some of the vets think about this:
Iím sure by now that everyone is familiar with the use of insulin of bodybuilding circles. Without a doubt, insulin use is the greatest advance in the sport since GH in the early 80ís. I would say that the massive size increases you have seen in the sport over the past five years have been a direct result of insulin use, more so than anything else. Insulin can also kill you.
Most of you are probably aware of DNP ís use in bodybuilding. For those of you who arenít familiar with DNP, which by the way stands for 2,4-Dinitrophenol, it is an unbelievable fat burning drug. If youíve ever wondered how a pro bodybuilder drops down from say, 280 to 225-230 in a very short period of time, itís probably because that particular individual is using DNP with a host of other drugs like thyroid, clenbuterol , etc. In fact, this bodybuilder might develop thyroid problems and balloon up and down in weight, even missing shows or looking horrible at others. Man, good thing this isnít a real person weíre talking about. Anyway, I digress. DNP is the greatest thing to come along in dieting since, well, I guess itís about the only good thing to come along that I can think of. And, DNP will kill you quicker than insulin.
Before we continue on, letís get real for a moment. Please do not use either insulin or DNP. Iím not joking that either of them can kill you, in fact the bottle of DNP Iím looking at right now lists the many horrible consequences of just touching the stuff. Be warned that you are taking your life in your hands by using either insulin or DNP. DNP is used in bug sprays for Christís sake. Now that I got that off my chest, we can continue.
Iím really not going to bore you with long and complicated explanations of how both DNP and insulin work in the body, but I do need to touch on the subject. Many of the articles written about DNP refer to itís abilities to block the actions of insulin. This is true only in a limited sense. Insulin is released by pancreatic beta cells in response to elevated ATP/ADP ratios. Briefly, when your blood sugar levels rise, your ATP/ADP levels become elevated, inhibiting ATP sensitive potassium ion channels (KATP), altering the membrane potential of the pancreatic cells and causing insulin release. The key point here is that insulin will not be released unless ATP levels within the cells increase. DNP interferes with the protein complex ATP synthase, which allows for the synthesis of ATP from ADP and Pi (inorganic phosphate). Since DNP interferes with a key step in ATP production, obviously ATP levels never elevate within any cell, including pancreatic beta cells. Hence, the feedback system through the KATP channels (at least in regards to insulin release), is disabled, and you effectively make yourself a diabetic while on DNP.
The primary action of insulin in the body is to drive glucose into muscle and liver cells (stored as glycogen) which is converted into ATP. ATP again? Since DNP reduces ATP production significantly, it again interferes with insulin by preventing a significant amount of the glucose that is pushed into cells by insulin from ever being used as energy (at least by the cell). So, what is happening to all of this energy that is being expended through the electron transport chain to turn ADP and Pi into ATP? Itís thrown off as heat, and lots of it. In fact, because the amount of heat produced is a direct correlation of how much DNP is consumed, taking too much DNP will cook you from the inside out. Let me repeat this. Taking too much DNP will fry you like an egg. It doesnít sound like a pleasant way to die, does it? DNP is not one of those, hey a little did me good, more will do me better kind of substances. A little will do you good and more will burn your ass up.
So, now we understand the ways in which DNP interferes with some of the actions of insulin. Another action of insulin (thank you God) is that it promotes transport of amino acids from the bloodstream into muscles and other cells. Insulin also increases the rate at which amino acids are incorporated into protein. Although DNP does block the release of insulin and prevents a key component of the electron transport chain (ATP synthase, remember?), it does nothing to prevent the aforementioned extremely anabolic affect of insulin. Therefore, when you use DNP, you should be administering insulin at the same time. The exogenous insulin will still work its anabolic magic while the DNP burns off reams of body fat through the resultant metabolic increase.
Many so called Gurus are recommending incorporating DNP as a component to any steroid cycle to ensure that weight gained is purely muscle and not fat. While this certainly works great on paper, application is a little different. I am a firm believer in training and eating to grow while on a heavy cycle (and what other kind is there?) Anyone who has any kind of contact with any professional bodybuilder in the off season will see that the chicken and rice thing has been thrown out of the window and that junk food rules the day. Their drug use is of such magnitude that eating clean would simply not supply the necessary calories for growth. Have you ever tried to consume 5000+ calories while on a low fat diet? Good luck. So, while they are certainly growing like a weed in the off season, they also tend to put on a bit of fat. Big deal. Iím going to let you in on a little secret. The only time those guys look like that is when they are on stage. Many people assume that the top guys are in shape all year round because they never see any pictures of them in the off season. And with good reason. Most (not all, but most) bodybuilders look like a chipmunk with a walnut in each cheek in the off season. These fellow tend to get a bit fat and bloated from their diets and heavy drug use. Now taking DNP while cycling will certainly help keep you leaner. It will also make you weaker, uncomfortable, and more quick to tire from a workout. Obviously not a good combination for consuming mass quantities while kicking ass in the gym is it? Therefore, we need a schedule for DNP administration. Iím a firm believer in down time from cycles (another article me thinks?), not because of receptor down regulation but from other factors. I propose a system where the athlete uses AS for 10 weeks, similar to the system advocated by Paul Borreson, followed by three weeks of down time. During this down time, 24 days actually, the athlete uses DNP in conjunction with insulin and T3, losing body fat while maintaining lean body mass. The dosing schedule would be as follows:
Last day of AS administration
Days 1-8 DNP with insulin and T3
Days 9-16 DNP is not used, insulin use continues, T3 continues for days 9-12
Days 17-24 DNP with insulin and T3
BACK ON THE JUICE!!
Psychologically this isnít the easiest system to use. Most guys who take AS never want to come off because they canít deal with the trauma of not feeling ďjuicedĒ. You know that feeling you have that if your car were flip over twenty times in a horrible flaming wreck it wouldnít matter because youíre on and you wouldnít get hurt. Thatís the feeling Iím referring to, the feeling that Iím strong, Iím invincible and on top of the world. However, are you taking gear to give yourself some false sense of security or because you want to take your body to previously unseen levels? Every person Iíve seen who takes time off between cycles (weíre talking three weeks here people) is healthier, bigger, and in better shape than those who donít. Additionally, by staying leaner in the off season, you have less fat to lose before a show, which will result is less muscle catabolism while dieting. I think weíll see the day soon where bodybuilders are staying much leaner in the off season by incorporating a system like the one Iíve described above, and getting on stage much bigger.
02-17-2003, 10:23 AM #2Junior Member
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In the last issue of Anabolic Extreme, we introduced the concept of using DNP and insulin in between steroid cycles to maintain size and reduce body fat. In Part II of this series, we'll further examine the use of these drugs and attempt to give you answers to the questions left unanswered in Part I.
Without a doubt, the biggest question people had after the first article was, "Where do I obtain DNP?" I know when people ask this question they are basically asking for an address or phone number they can call an order DNP like a pizza. I'm sorry if that's what you wanted, because it doesn't work that way. DNP is not a chemical that is very widely used, and the industries that use it are very specialized. For example, DNP is used in bug sprays. DNP is also used as a wood treatment. Railroad ties have DNP applied to them to help preserve them. Not very many companies sell DNP because it is considered a hazardous material and companies have to apply to the Department of Transportation to become exempt from certain regulations regarding the shipping and transport of these materials. So, what we are left with is a situation where there exists a very small need for DNP and it can only be obtained from a few companies. Understand that when you call these companies, you're usually dealing with someone who has a background in chemistry and are not easily conned into selling a dangerous substance to Joe Bodybuilder. However, that doesn't mean it can't be done!
The first thing I would do if I were a person seeking DNP is find out what companies actually sell this substance. There are a couple of different ways to do this. One, you can search the chemical companies on the net. There are several different chemical sites that will actually locate companies that sell given chemicals. This takes time and perseverance but is a fairly good way to locate any substance you might be seeking. The other way is to find out what companies can even ship hazardous materials through carriers like UPS. Again, these companies have to file with the Department of Transportation and be granted an exemption from certain regulations. Since this is public information, it's possible to get the list of exempt companies from the Department of Transportation. The regulations from which these companies are exempted are 49 CFR Parts 172 Subparts E and F, 173.25(a) (1) - (4), 174.3, 174.81, 175.3, 177.801, 177.848 and Part 173, Subpart E. What does this mean? How the hell should I know? What I do know is that if you write to the following address, you can get a list of companies that can ship these materials through normal carriers.
Associate Administrator for Hazardous Materials Safety, Research and Special Programs Administration
Department of Transportation Washington D.C., 20590
Now the great thing about a substance like DNP is that it's very hard to get. Which means that the average guy probably won't be able to obtain it. My feelings on DNP are that if you are smart enough to obtain it, you are smart enough to use it properly. However, I have noticed that some boards have posts from individuals offering to sell DNP capsules. DO NOT BUY DNP FROM THESE INDIVIDUALS!!! Let's get real for a moment. The dosage of DNP that can kill you is not significantly higher than that which is used to lose body fat. Since we are dealing with very small amounts of material, it's vitally important that the utmost care is taken when measuring DNP. Personally, my life is worth enough to me that I'm not going to trust some strangers skill in very precise measuring, unless that person has gone to school for years like a pharmacist. Once you've obtained the DNP, what's next? DNP is packed wet, moistened to about 20-25% H20 by weight. Because it is considered a volatile substance, it's packed wet to keep it exploding in transport. Before we can encapsulate the DNP, we have to remove as much of the water as possible. For the purposes of this article, I tested a small sample of DNP to determine its volatility. I took a very amount and tried to ignite it under a flame. No dice, it simply melted. I also took a small amount and subjected it to forceful compression, which is a fancy way of saying I hit it with a hammer. Still nothing. So, I assume that DNP is relatively stable. At the same time, I wouldn't try and dry it out in my oven. The most effective way I've found is to simply leave it out in the sun for a day. I've also used a desk lamp when the sun wasn't an option. Despite the results of my two simple tests, I still respect DNP and take great care in drying it out. You should too.
In order for the DNP to be measured out properly, you'll need to obtain a very accurate scale. The scale I use is accurate to 0.1 g. You can obtain scales that are more precise but they are tremendously expensive and are unnecessary for our purposes. The easiest way to find an acceptable scale is visit a smoke shop. Hopefully, everyone reading this article is familiar with the metric system. DNP is best used at a ratio of 4-5 mg per kg of bodyweight. Slightly higher dosages are more effective at burning fat, but come at the expense of an increase in discomfort and are generally impractical for most people. Knowing that 1 lb equals 2.2 kg, a 220 lb bodybuilders weighs 100 kg. Therefore, this bodybuilder would want to consume approximately 400-500 mg of DNP per day. Ideally this is consumed in two equally divided doses, one taken at about 5 p.m., the other immediately before bed. Since most of you will be using a scale that is similar to the one mentioned above, it's impossible to measure DNP with precision accuracy. Realistically capsules will range in potency from 150-300 mg per capsules. However, this is accurate enough for our purposes.
When handling DNP, the utmost in care must be taken not to destroy you house. DNP stains like nothing I've ever seen before. Its fumes will also stain just as bad as the actual powder, so you must store dried DNP in a fashion that does not allow the fumes to escape. Just to give you an example, when I first starting using DNP, I stored my dried out powder on the far corner of my kitchen counter in a flat Pyrex dish sealed in two hefty trash bags. It wasn't before very long that the entire corner of my kitchen started taking on a yellowish hue from the escaping fumes. It's best to store DNP inside a sealed Ziploc bag inside a sealed Tupperware container. When handling the actual powder, cover everything in the immediate vicinity with plastic! Wear gloves and immediately throw them away outside along with any other protective material. If you are lax in your handling of DNP, everyone will notice because your home will be stained a nice urine yellow.
DNP's Side Effects
Once you start taking DNP, the side effects begin. What follows is a listing of the joys of taking DNP.
The first time you take DNP, you prepare yourself for some excessive sweating. Believe me when I tell you that no amount of hyperbole can prepare you for the actual ordeal you are beginning. By the second day of your DNP cycle, you should be feeling fairly moist. By day three, it's as if someone is twisting you like a wet washcloth, squeezing all of the water out of you. During my first cycle of DNP, I was working in a job that required formal attire. I had to lie to everyone at work and tell them I was very sick and feverish for five days while I was drenched in sweat. Fortunately now I work at home and am able to sweat like a pig in the comfort of my own house.
It's vitally important to drink copious amounts of water while on DNP to avoid dehydration from the excessive sweating induced by DNP. It's also important to stay as cool as possible at night while sleeping. Keep your house as cold as possible and aim at a fan at yourself at night.
Discoloration of Bodily Fluids
From the anecdotal reports we've received, everyone experiences this side effect to one degree or another. Urine becomes a dark yellow, sweat secretions stain clothes yellow, and semen takes on a yellowish tinge. Although the discoloration of bodily fluids is not harmful in and of itself, it can be quite irritating when you've managed to ruin half your shirts and stain your carpet. When I take DNP, I take care not to wear light colored clothing, especially whites. During my first DNP cycle, I ruined several white shirts by staining the collars and armpits of the shirts yellow. Additionally I managed to ruin brand new carpet in my home by laying on it while I was sweating. Unbelievably, it left yellow stains on the carpet that I cannot get out. Finally, I have carpeted bathrooms that are now stained with yellow dots from the shower water bouncing off my skin and onto the floor. DNP users should take care around any fabrics and take necessary precautions to avoid ruining them by allowing them to come into contact with bodily secretions. Once you've stained any material yellow, it's probably not coming out.
Lack of Energy/Lethargy
Obviously, any substance that interferes with your normal production of ATP is going to cause extreme lethargy. Please refer to Article I in the archives section for a detailed explanation of how DNP works in the body. By day three of a DNP cycle it becomes difficult to make it through a normal days activities. Most users will find it difficult to continue on their normal workout schedule due to the extreme lethargy experienced while using DNP. This is one of the primary reasons why DNP cycles are kept very short.
DNP cycles are created out of a need to balance the benefits of DNP with the many unpleasant side effects of the drug. For the dosing schedule of DNP, please refer to Part I of this article in the archives section. The eight-day cycles allow for significant fat loss to occur while allowing the user to recover from the trauma of using the drug. Most individuals find themselves at the end of their rope, so to speak, at the end of the eight days. Additionally, longer cycles might result in muscle catabolism as a result of decreased ATP levels within the muscle cell and an inability for the user to effectively train with weights. The dosing schedule advocated in Part I of this article allows for two brief DNP cycles during a "cleaning out" period from anabolics. Not only does this help keep bodyfat levels low, but the anabolic rebound effect experienced after a DNP cycle helps maintain lean body mass while off steroids .
Insulin therapy is crucial to achieve the massive size exhibited by today's professional bodybuilders. However, extreme caution must be exercised when using insulin to avoid a dangerous drop in blood sugars. Compounding this problem is the fact that significant amounts of insulin must be used to achieve the desired effect. In my research, I've seen very few articles accurately state the amount of insulin that should be used to induce anabolism. Most articles quote figures that are next to useless, in the range of 1-3 iu's a few times a day. Realistically, insulin is most effective when used in the 30-40 iu's a day range, with some professional bodybuilders using 3 times that amount!
Carbohydrates must be consumed every time a dose of insulin is administered. A good rule of thumb is to consume 10 grams of carbohydrates for every 1 iu of insulin that is used. Since most doses should be in the 10 iu range, you must consume 100 grams of carbohydrate to protect yourself from hypoglycemia. These carbs should consist of a combination of simple and complex carbs. A few examples of this would be eating a banana with rice or drinking fruit juice with a baked potato. It's imperative that you always have an emergency source of simple carbohydrates on you at all times, whether it be a soft drink, candy bar, or tube of glucose paste. It's also a good idea to inform the people around you that you are using insulin so they know what to do if you start acting funny. Simply tell people that you have been diagnosed as a diabetic and go over the symptoms of getting "low" with them. I go so far as to wear a medic alert bracelet stating I'm a diabetic. Lastly, you should obtain a glucagon pen in case you really get in trouble. Glucagon has the opposite effect of insulin and will cause a massive release of glycogen from your liver and muscle cells.
While insulin will certainly cause anabolism, it also has a tendency to make you fat. The dosing schedule described in Part I of this article solves that dilemma. When insulin is used during a steroid cycle, the fat burning properties of the steroids keeps fat gain to a minimum. When it's used during the cleaning out period, the simultaneous use of DNP will actually cause a reduction in bodyfat while the insulin keeps the loss of lean body mass at a minimum.
Accessory Supplements and Drugs
While using DNP and insulin, some accessory drugs and supplements are required to ensure the safety and effectiveness of these substances. What follows is a list of these supplements and drugs, along with a brief explanation of each.
Anti-oxidants are of particular importance when taking DNP. In the early 1900's when DNP was used as a dieting drug in this country, a very small percentage of women talking the drug ended up with cataracts. Taking anti-oxidants like vitamin C and vitamin E are vitally important to reduce any risk of developing cataracts and to reduce the damage caused by the increased production of free radicals. Vitamin C can also be beneficial due to its cortisol suppressing abilities when taken in high dosages so consume about 10 grams a day in divided dosages. Vitamin E should be supplemented at a rate of about a 1000 iu's per day.
Glycerol has been shown in some studies to aid in muscle hydration. Dehydration is always an issue when using DNP due to the extreme sweating it causes. Even slight dehydration can cause catabolism in muscle cells, so staying properly hydrated becomes vitally important when using an agent like DNP. Use 3 tbsp a day in divided dosages and try to consume a gallon of water per day.
As stated earlier, bodybuilders using insulin to induce anabolism always run the risk of dropping blood glucose to dangerous levels. Carbohydrate drinks or supplements like Carboplex are quick, efficient ways to ensure you are getting the necessary carbohydrates you need every time you administer insulin. Shoot for 10 grams of carbs for every iu of insulin used.
DNP use will cause a significant decrease in the production of thyroid hormones as your body attempts to counter its significant increase in temperature. As such, supplemental doses of T3 thyroid become crucial to maximize the effectiveness of DNP's fat burning characteristics. T3, available as Cynomel in Mexico, should be used at a rate of 25-50 mcg per day. It's also possible to use triatricol, available over the counter as a dietary supplement here in the US, failing acquisition of Cytomel or Cynomel. Triatricol should be supplemented at a rate of 1000-2000 mcg per day.
Chromium Picolinate is a chelated form of chromium, an essential co-factor for the proper function of insulin in the body. Chromium increases the absorbability of insulin, helping to reduce body fat and build lean muscle. Most people suffer from deficient levels of this mineral since most foods do not contain chromium. Athletes should supplement chromium picolinate at 200 mcg per day.
DNP and insulin can be combined synergistically for a powerful anabolic/lipotropic combination. Athletes considering the use of these substances must be made aware of all the potential side effects and dangers associated with these drugs. If you are considering using either of these substances, please carefully consider the information presented in this two part series. Hopefully we will help you minimize the risks and enjoy more of the benefits of these powerful drugs.
02-17-2003, 02:59 PM #3Junior Member
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