Thread: under 21 juicing
11-04-2003, 04:48 PM #1New Member
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under 21 juicing
You say it's wrong for a 18-20 yeard to juice because their too young and it will stunt their growth? This is factually incorrect.
Epiphyseal plate closure on average occurs at age 15 in girls(that't right, at 15 their completely developed) and in boys at age 17. Almost nobody nowadays grows until their 21.
What causes epiphyseal plate closure?
ESTROGEN! causes it. It's the aromitzation of anabolic androgenic steroids that causes premature epiphyseal plate closure. Simply use a dht derivative that doesn't aromitize and you won't closure the plates.
Small doses of steroids such as oxandrolone (which cannot aromatize
due to the fact that the A ring is a lactone) have been used to stimulate linear growth in prebubescent children (with minimal risk of virilization).
Cheaper than hGH and easier to administer.
BUT, It's not that simple. There are other hormones at play in the
developing skeleton than just testosterone , such as estrogen, growth
hormone, and IGF-1. They all interact in bone metabolism and
associated soft connective tissue (bone is also a connective tissue,
but referred to as 'hard' CT, versus the 'soft' CT of ligaments and
Actually, Test has a biphasic effect: the initial effect is rapid bone
elongation resulting from the synergistic effects of three anabolic
hormones: GH, IGF-1 and T. Estrogen has the opposite effect (and it's
fairly rapid). Estrogen is also a key component of epiphyseal closure.
However, as with most hormones, the effects are biphasic. In other
words, the response during the initial time of treatment (acute) and
changes in response during long-term treatment (chronic). Acute T
administration causes accelerated bone growth (T has a GH-independent
effect on epiphyseal growth plate by upregulating IGF-1 receptors),
which then declines with chronic treatment.
Estrogen is similar, except that the initial effect of E is to inhibit
growth of the epiphyseal growth plate. Long term T administration
overrides the growth inhibition of E on the plates.
The other reason you state is that natural testosterone is through the roof when your a teenager
WRONG! There is no comparison between being on steroids and a slightly elevated testosterone blood plasma level in 18-20 year olds. A simple dosage of 10mg of d-bol causes a 5 fold increase in tests levels(posted in the profile section of this website)
There is no significant difference between test levels in the average 19 year old vs. 21 year old. The large increase in test are seen at ages 14-16 and even here there is no comparison to steroid use . Do you see balding 15 year olds? Again this is the average. Some males do grow till they are 19.
Under age 20, x-rays should be taken to make sure epiphyseal plate closure has taken place.
Age 20 and up... there is no risk. Your simply picking age 21 because that's the drinking age in the states and the "new" age of adulthood because of the extended adolescence were seeing in today's youth.
Were raising a bunch of adult babies who can't support themselves. Back in the day.. 18... your ass is kicked out. That's the way it should be.
It takes about 1.5 years to plateau in development when lifting. Distance yourself from the thought that you can gain serious muscle and strength from natural weightlifting after 1.5 years. First 6 months... enormous strength increase-- neural--- 6-1.5 years slight hypertrophy. On average 8 pounds with a person who knows exactly what their doing.
Finally, my recommendation is that everyone should wait until age 20 to start the juice, but STATE THE FACTS.
11-04-2003, 04:54 PM #2
Dear god, not again!!!!!
11-04-2003, 05:23 PM #3
All I know is I'm glad I waited to use AAS until I was 24, because I grew 2" from the age of 20 to the age of 22.
11-04-2003, 05:25 PM #4
good read regardless. is there any proof in what you are saying bro, or is this a theory.
11-04-2003, 05:27 PM #5
viper, do you know a Foxysphinx by chance?
11-04-2003, 05:34 PM #6Originally Posted by Grant
11-04-2003, 05:49 PM #7Banned
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viper702, ok..maybe steroids ..taken in the proper dosage amount will not stunt growth, for boys aged 17 and olders..BUT..lol I made that mistake right there see..I thought that was the only side effect for teen steroid users..simply plate closures...WRONG! Do not dare to promote the use of steroids to teens after I have made that same mistake. I am 17 and I decided to stop juciing you know why? Not cause of growth plates, because I didnt really give a damn about my height im 5"11 lol. talk about sexual dynsfunctions for the rest of your life..YES! SEXUAL DYSFUNCTIONS! Talk about cum that is all watery with no sperm...for the rest of ur life..that is very possible among you 20 and under juicers. I plan to have kids so...I had to get off the cycle..but if you dont plan on having kids (that is staying impotence for the rest of ur life) then go ahead..JUICE UP! Get big teens! Go for it! But remember..dont come crying to me..or any other guys in a few years because we will just simply give our regrets..that is all...because we wontg be able to do anything about it!!!! yes! Teens, your testosterone is at its peak now..you dont want to fuck it up..especially now since ur test is heightened up..otherwise you'll throw off your hormonal balance and..its good ol 6 iu hcg everyday for a long time heh..
11-04-2003, 05:51 PM #8Originally Posted by Grant
11-04-2003, 05:53 PM #9Originally Posted by viper702
Seriously, I am glad I waited to try this stuff.
11-04-2003, 05:54 PM #10
11-04-2003, 05:54 PM #11
Pandora's box all over again.
11-04-2003, 05:55 PM #12Junior Member
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Impressive second post... Heard this from someone else before?
IMO the reasoning to advise 16-19yo against the use of AS is more psycological than pysiological. The pressure from high school to be "Buff" and "Tough" right now, turn many this age to the "quick-fix" which, like it or not, steriods can be. The teenage user, who probably doesn't work-out as hard as the majority here, nor eat as well, will notice a rapid increase in muscualrity and strength...Especially since the mental aspect of gear will force them to work-out more frequently and hopefully eat a little better, not to mention that it increases appetite. The downfall is the end of the cycle when the gains dissapate as quickly as they came on, and the sides increase.
The problem many BB have with this is, for them, steriods are a means to the end rather than a quick-fix. Many take offense to the thought that anyone can inject and get bigger...they feel that they are highly specialized athletes (with which I agree) and juice is an important component not something just anyone can use. Fact is: Most anyone can use steriods and increase size and strength....regardless of work-out, diet, or lifestyle.
I would continue to advise against steriod use to teenagers...but I have not seen sufficient medical research (and I have exhaustively searched) to support a growth stunting effect or even in most cases a permanent chemical imbalence. I agree with Viper on this point.
But I take extreme exception to your statement:
"Almost nobody nowadays grows until their 21."
That's completely unfounded and ridiculous. Medically the body realizes no age...Personally I grew until 23 as did the majority of the pitchers on my team. The second baseman (short guys...and I mean no disrespect) stopped growing at a much younger age. But the taller guys, some are still growing at 24. That's my own observation and I have no medical backing nor imperical research I wish to find to support this. Although I have read on this subject...
Maybe it's time for a poll....
11-04-2003, 05:59 PM #13
it just strikes me as odd that TWO people are taking this stance within 24 hours.hmmmmmm
11-04-2003, 06:06 PM #14Junior Member
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I'm not taking a pro-teenage steriod stance......
I really hope it doesn't sound like that....but I did my first cycle last year and grew an inch at 23 and a half years. I have not done enough research (comparativley speaking) to express opinion about growth plate closure...but I know it is not test produced. Estrogen does cause epiphyseal plate closure and test effects estrogen. But in my case...and many others I know, steriods have had no effect on growth...
I haven't tried to impregnate my girlfriend tho... :smile:
11-04-2003, 06:11 PM #15Originally Posted by Grant
11-04-2003, 06:58 PM #16
My personal opinion is no gear until 2-4 years of training to gain as much of your genetic potential. 18 is too young 19 would be a minimum. I know lot's of guys who started AAS in their freshman year of college in the 70s and 80s who are just fine now. The problem with much of the info regarding AAS is that it is anecdotal because of the societal taboo associated with performance enhancing drugs. The consensus on AR seems to be age 22 or older. I believe that there are 19 year olds who are mature enough and developed enough to make the choice for themselves. In those cases I would be willing to give advice based on my experiences and not make judgements.
11-04-2003, 08:51 PM #17Originally Posted by Grant
My same thoughts bro. Good call. I mean how many Newbies come on here and begin posting stuff like that? It's not like Hey, i'm about to start a cycle, blah, blah, blah, then add a theory like that to the mix. NOPE. First post and BAM. Does he really think we are that stupid? I mean how does a guy who just becomes a member today, already is telling us were wrong about teens juicing? I actually am finding this amusing...SAD, but amusing....
Last edited by buylongterm; 11-04-2003 at 08:56 PM.
11-04-2003, 08:54 PM #18Originally Posted by Powerful Beast
11-04-2003, 09:02 PM #19Originally Posted by markas214
11-04-2003, 09:15 PM #20
I`m a bit older than most...39. When I was in high school there was ALOT of juicing. I don`t even want to get into growth and funtion or disfuntion.
Since it was so wide spead in my school and the gym i worked out in I was close friends with several early juicers. I`m talking about 15-17yr olds.
Steriods were so easy to come by. Walk into the gym in 1980 and chose what you wanted. Hell most owners would set you up. Local wrestling and football coaches either supplied them or hooked you up. They would tell you "how" to use them. Boy was their advise shitty.
Alot of orals. Drol-D-bol- and alot of Var. Used for too long with pyrimid cycles.
OK I regress. Anyway, One of the major proplems I saw was Roid rage . Oh yes its a real thing especially in immature hormonally over inhanced teens. Couple of me friends went to jail out of high school as violent offenders. One friend that I was very close to spent a year in the nut house. Sweet guy. The things I saw and heard of him doing especially with an alcohol mix is ledgendary.
Immaturity of mind AND body is not a good mix with AAS's.
There is too much already goining on in your body at that age to introduce AAS's to. MHO DOUBLE J
11-04-2003, 10:15 PM #21Originally Posted by byu
11-05-2003, 02:20 PM #22New Member
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Number 1, I'm not a physician so don't take anything what I say or anybody else says as absolute fact. Consult a doctor.
Like I said, I do not recommend steroids under 20, in fact I don't recommend steroids to ANYONE. Their illegal for a reason. They are known to cause numerous side effects(you all know this in this forum so I'm not going to list them). Any steroid use under age 18is deadly and will most likely stunt growth as well as possibly permantly damage normal hpta.
At age 18+
that risk is minimal to non-existant,
but obviously still present since SOME people do grow till age 21, though very very rare. Almost nobody grows past age 20.
How many high schoolers do you see nowadays with fully grown thick facial hair? Once that happens, puberty is finito.
What I said is not a theory, but FACT.
Average age girls stop growing is 15. FACT.
Very Very few people grow till there 21.
Check it out for youself, type in a search engine
"average age of epiphyseal plate closure in adolescents"
Steroid use for ANYBODY IS BAD FOR YOU!!!, no matter what the age!
I agree that there are MANY MANY reasons people 18-20 shouldn't be taking steroids, the hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis is still "learning"
to keep hormone levels in homeostasis ect., but
STUNTING GROWTH IS DEFINETLY NOT THE MAIN REASON.
There also many reasons people age 21+ shouldn't take juice! Liver tumors
for example. Just because you don't get it immediatly, doesn't mean 30 years down the line it won't catch up with you. Taking 35/mgs a day of d-bol is a recipe for liver cancer. Check out rxlist.com or any drug reference handbook. See the side effects. 9 months non stop of anadrol will almost certainly cause immediate liver cancer. Your doing 2 months, over and over most likely damaging the dna. Stay away from 17-alpha alk pills in high dosages and you can avoid MOST, but not all, toxic side effects of aas.
Pick up any pediatricians manual(or med school books), and you'll see that almost nobody in modern times grows till they are 21. You have to remember that in the victorian era, girls didn't have their first period until the age of 18, now it's like age 10!
I'm simply stating facts. As for me being two different people or something... wrong.
11-05-2003, 03:19 PM #23Junior Member
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Sonhouse....great post. I love hearing about the "slightly older" generation and the trial and tribs they have. You can only learn from past mistakes. And I agree with you that it is the mental state of the adolescent mind that should be considered when prescribing AS.
Buylongterm....look at more of powerfulbeasts posts, especially:
Viper...I was agreeing with you on the majority of your first post. However, searching the internet yeilds very subjective information. Try medical journals published by major universities or associations like AMA, this is true imperical research.
In my own personal experience, which is what I said before and from what I have read, researched, and written about at school epiphyseal plate closure occurs much later (chronologically) than in the early and mid part of last century. Further, complete closure of the growth plates may not occur until mid 20's, with rare reported cases (in otherwise healthy normal adults) until late 20's. If I can find the paper I wrote, I will get you the journals for my research.
"You have to remember that in the victorian era, girls didn't have their first period until the age of 18, now it's like age 10!" This proves evolution and a Darwinistic "survival of the fittest". Height and weight have both advanced significantly since the mid 1900's and dramatically since the Victorian era. Abraham Lincoln was 6'2" and considered a giant, no one he was standing near in any photo was close to as tall...that was little more than 150 years ago. Plate closure occurs later in life...but that has no bearing on steriod use, as far as I have seen.
11-05-2003, 03:20 PM #24Junior Member
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BTW Grant...no worries bro. I think we've had this misunderstanding before...it's my fault.
11-05-2003, 03:28 PM #25
It's not about age totally......maturity plays a HUGE factor.....
11-05-2003, 03:36 PM #26Junior Member
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My thoughts exactly...rather than admonish a 18 year from using AS I think we all should educate. They are probably going to hit it anyway, we might be able to delay their cycle a bit and help them to better prepare.
11-05-2003, 04:30 PM #27
First time ive seen somone else who can speak the growth plate lingo to me. But viper, have you thoroughly studied chondrogenesis and osteogenesis, or did you simply study the hormones effects on bone growth (which is very dull, as its much better to learn the two processes that result in bone growth and how these hormones effect these processes).
For instance, GH is pro-rpoliferative to prechondrocytes which come from recently differenetiated mesenchymal cells in the germative layer of the growth plate. While GH also primes the prechondrocytes for IGF-1 expression. IGf-1 then stimulates them to undergo massive clonal expansion and proliferation, differnetiation, and hypertrophy. While Thyroid hormones and corticosteroids are anti-proliferative and pro-apoptosis (cellular death). You want apoptosis after massive clonal expansion and differentiation, as apoptosis has to occur before the stages of Osteogenesis can occur.
Much of your post is correct. The rate at which epiphytseal growth occurs, depends on how high your T levels are, because they aromatase to E which is reponsible for the closure yes. So taking steroids will speed this up.
But its also easy to prevent, just take anti-aromatase, and stick to low aromatising steroids and/or low dosages. Or as you suggested, DHT derivatives.
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