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  1. #1
    DocHoliday's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Clomid V. HCG basics for beginners 101

    I hope this sheds some light on the differences between Clomid and HCG . It is designed to be easy to read for the starting point for beginning researchers.

    Difference between HCG and Clomid.

    Clomid:
    Clomid is a synthetic estrogen. Its legal medical use is to be prescribed to woman to induce ovulation.

    Why body builders use it after AS use:

    Clomid stimulates the hypophysis to release more gonadotropin so that a faster and higher release of follicle stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone occurs. This results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production.

    Ok, this is important. To make things simple, clomid triggers one thing to trigger another that leads to an increase in the bodies own testosterone production.

    The most effective way to administer Clomid as post cycle therapy.

    Clomid has a long half-life and as such there is no need to split up doses throughout the day. However, it is wise to split up the dosage on the first day of administering Clomid (300mgs on day 1. After the first day it should be used 100mgs for 10 days and then followed by 50mgs for 10 days. Sometimes its use can be longer than 21 days, but this is dependent on the length of AS use. Anywhere from 8-18 weeks and this rule of thumb should be adequate, given the degree of complexity of the cycle.

    Day 1 300mg (split evenly throughout the day)
    Day 2-11 100mg each day
    Day 3-21 50mg each day

    Common side effects when using Clomid:

    During the use of clomid, some of the most common reported side effects are: emotional distress/instability, acne breakout, and blurred vision.

    However, the acne breakout cannot be directly attributable to the clomid use. It may or not be a late reaction to the use of AS.

    Blurred vision and emotional distress/instability does not occur in all subjects. I did not experience any of the three listed side effects. Just like use of AS, it depends on the individual and you must see how the body will react.


    Not all Steroids shut down the HPTA.

    So why use clomid? Everyone is different and as I said above, you need to take into account the duration and dosages you have been using a certain steroid in order to determine if you need clomid or not. In all honesty, itís a cheap precautionary step, so why not take the step?

    HCG:
    A natural protein hormone that is developed in the placenta of a pregnant woman.
    Its medical use is administered in women in inject-able form and allows for ovulation since it influences the last stages of the development of the ovum. In a man HCG stimulates production of androgenic hormones (testosterone).

    Why body builders us HCG:

    HCG causes a quick and significant increase of the endogenic plasma- testosterone level. HCG does stimulate endogenous testosterone production, and stimulates the testicles to produce testosterone. However, unfortunately, it does not help in reestablishing the normal hypothalamic/pituitary testicular axis. The hypothalamus and pituitary are still in a refractory state after prolonged steroid usage, and remain this way while HCG is being used. This is because the exogenous testosterone the body produces from the exogenous HCG still represses the endogenous luteinizing hormone production. Once the HCG is discontinued, the athlete must still go through a re-adjustment period.

    Ok, this is important. To make things simple, HCG directly makes the body produce testosterone.

    When to administer HCG?

    There are two ways to administer HCG. During cycle or post cycle.

    The benefit, and in my eyes the biggest benefit, of administering HCG during cycle is to prevent the atrophy of the testicles. Atrophy of the testicles can result from prolonged uses of heavy doses of anabolic steroids . During the administration of HCG during cycle, usually mid way, or at two-week intervals for several intervals in long run cycles, a subject will notice a surge of testosterone. These surges may result in significant strength and muscle gains during the intervals of administration.

    Using HCG post cycle is tricky. Since we know the body will still enter a re-adjustment period afterwards, or a crash, it doesnít seem like a good compound to use as therapy. It does have its place however. In certain cycles, usually long ran cycles at high doses using harsh compounds it can be administered after the cycles end but before the use of clomid.

    Just a little piece of info: HCG should be injected intramuscularly. It can be injected, as some do, subq. Using an insulin needle this form of injection is much easier to measure out.

    (addition by LuvMyRoids
    Doses of HCG
    Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing estrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia . This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

    Presentation and Administration of HCG

    Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.
    (end addition)

    Clomid V HCG.

    We simplify our view on the two compounds to give a general comparison.

    Clomid would be a compound that teaches or helps heal the body into a state of regularity. HCG would be a compound that acts like a crutch, from which you sill must learn to walk again.

    Both are important compounds, but AS users must know when to use them, and how to use the.

    Disclaimer-ish:

    I want to note that what I have written here will be constantly revised and updated. What I have written is not law. It is a starting point for understanding the differences between Clomid and HCG.

    I was a 20 year old college student when I wrote this.

    May this be of some help to beginners.[COLOR=DarkOrange]

    Doc
    Last edited by DocHoliday; 03-07-2004 at 01:07 AM. Reason: update

  2. #2
    Lord's Avatar
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    ill just waited for this post from you keep up the good work bro. good and informative thread btw.
    Last edited by Lord; 01-12-2004 at 03:24 PM.

  3. #3
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    SgfuryZ,

    Well to be honest, I donít know of the benefits of using them in conjunction. I will read up. If you have any info, or places to read I will read up.

    Just from what I know, now that is, I couldnít imagine it being good to run HCG all the way through Clomidís use in PCT. Unless if you were bridging between cycles.

    Doc

  4. #4
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    In other words after the cycles end and before Clomid. I wrote that. Should I reword it to make it clearer? Let me check it out.

    Doc

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocHoliday
    SgfuryZ,

    Well to be honest, I donít know of the benefits of using them in conjunction. I will read up. If you have any info, or places to read I will read up.

    Just from what I know, now that is, I couldnít imagine it being good to run HCG all the way through Clomidís use in PCT. Unless if you were bridging between cycles.

    Doc
    The nolva will mimic estrogen making the clomid start restoring HPTA functions.

    And you're right never run HCG and clomid together HCG and nolva are fine to run together. HCG will not allow clomid to do it's job if ran together..

  6. #6
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    hey doc ive read several posts about clomid causing permanent vision imparement... at what doses would this sort of thing happen??

  7. #7
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    Blurred vision. Itís a possible consequence. Permanent effects I donít think are proven. I donít believe that it will result in permanent impairment in how body builders will use it for PCT.

    Unless youíre a pilot, or assassin, I doubt the blurred vision will be that much of a problem should you get it.

    Doc

  8. #8
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    Great post Doc
    I only wonder if this post should include "recommended" dosages of HCG for mid-cycle and post-cycle. You address that with the clomid but I didn't see it for the HCG. (I could have missed it)

    Again--Great post

  9. #9
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    I did not address the dosages. I think with HCG itís just a tad bit more tricky. It depends on when you use it, how much gear youíre using, and the need for HCG.

    If you can help me find a way to incorporate a chart-like section Iíd appreciate it.


    Ok, Iím going to give my own thread at least one star. :smile:

    Doc

  10. #10
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    what kind of risks are involved w/ clomid and some of the more serious sides?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocHoliday
    I did not address the dosages. I think with HCG itís just a tad bit more tricky. It depends on when you use it, how much gear youíre using, and the need for HCG.

    If you can help me find a way to incorporate a chart-like section Iíd appreciate it.


    Ok, Iím going to give my own thread at least one star. :smile:

    Doc

    I guess you are right, Doc. Too many variables to give a generalized dose. Didn't look at it that way.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klossus
    what kind of risks are involved w/ clomid and some of the more serious sides?

    Putting that in now.

  13. #13
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    Updated 01/12/04 at 5:33pm Easter USA.

  14. #14
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    Bump for input

  15. #15
    Consistency's Avatar
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    good read doc

  16. #16
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
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    Good post, Doc.

  17. #17
    Steven7's Avatar
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    Good post doc.

  18. #18
    winny100 is offline Junior Member
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    I found clomid and arimidex post cycle increasesd fsh , lh and test

  19. #19
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    great read

    great read doc as usual! i think when need to change your rank to proffesor or maybe super librarian i need to check my spelling on that one before you flame on me... be back in a minute...........ahhh screw it i cant beat you espiacially with you having those super zargonian powers able to answer 1000 threads in a single bound faster than a speeding go-cart etc

  20. #20
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    You guys are out of control. Thanks.

    Ouch, down to two stars? I need to revamp it eh? Lets see what I can touch up.


    Bump.

  21. #21
    DocHoliday's Avatar
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    Bump.

    I have updated the injection info for HCG . 01/25/04 @ 9:20 US eatern.

    Doc

  22. #22
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    good info...im saving it to use as a reference...

  23. #23
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    hey guys I was just wondering if u like my first cycle , I have been doing some research but lemme know what u guys think... wk 1-12 ....300mg test
    wk 1-11.... 200mg deca
    wk 1-18 20mg nolva a day.nolva..... 20mg everday all the way
    wk 15-18 clomid 300mg first day.day 2-11 100mg.12-21 50mg.

  24. #24
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    back to the top

  25. #25
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    well... if you don't give a recomendation for taking HCG by dosage... how about like... 2500 I.U. with your last injection of lets say 13 week test E and 12 week EQ? Would you recomend any kind of follow up shot or just 1? thanks.

  26. #26
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    Interesting read on clomd and HCG . I see someone bumped this. Well, while im here, Im going to comment and compliment the thread with more information pertaining to Clomid and HCG.

    Clomid also works as an anti-estrogen. As it's a weak synthetic estrogen, it binds to estrogen receptors on cells blocking them to estrogen in the blood. This minimises the negative effects like gynecomastia and water retention that may be a result of estrogen that has aromatised from testosterone .
    It's effect as an anti-estrogen are quite weak though, and it should not be relied upon if you are going to be using androgenic steroids that aromatise at a rapid rate, or if you are pre-disposed to gynecomastia. Arimidex and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen ) are far more effective anti-estrogens.

    As for HCG...

    Doses of HCG
    Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing estrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

    Presentation and Administration of HCG
    Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.

  27. #27
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    LuvMyRoids,

    I'm going to copy that and put it into edit of my thread. I'll quote you. Thanks.

  28. #28
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    No prob and thank you. It's a good thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by DocHoliday
    LuvMyRoids,

    I'm going to copy that and put it into edit of my thread. I'll quote you. Thanks.

  29. #29
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    Excellent thread. Thanks for the read.

  30. #30
    winny100 is offline Junior Member
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    Hcg

    HCG does work but to get test levels up can take a few months for long term users. I know i work with my endocrinologist and he recommends 3000 to 4000iu a week. After this you should take arimidex and clomid this combo really works to boost your FSH LH and natty TEST.

    I did not take nolvadex with the HCG but think this would be a good Idea . Please note i was a long term user and it took me 2 years to get my endocrine system back to normal, but i do not have any sperm count left , this i hope will be back when i have a test for it for it in a few weeks. the endocrinologist strongly suggests using FSH injections to complement HCG if after HCG has raised your Test levels you still have no sperm count. He may put me on FSH next . But i think i won't need it. Fingers crossed. Please note a good doctor will also look at Prolactin levels and SHBG.
    Hopefully i will be fine and keep my repeat prescriptions to have a nice stash of this stuff.


    Take care Bros

  31. #31
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    Yes Nolvadex should be used with HCG , and I didn't come out and directly say it, but of course Clomid is needed after, but HCG should not be used alone.

    Thanks for the addition to this post Winny100! Good luck.

    Doc

  32. #32
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    Great post doc !

  33. #33
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    Bumping for a friend

  34. #34
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    Bump

  35. #35
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    Doc what's up bro???

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by groverman1
    Doc what's up bro???
    Hey grover, long time man.

    Hit me up on PM for an e-mail addy.

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