Propionate Half-life Graph

**johnsomebody** · 02-12-2004, 05:21 PM

Hey bros,

Since there's been a lot of debate about the half-life of propionate I thought I’d attach a graph from a thread at Steroidology.

I hope this is helpful.

It also shows decanoate as well.

**johnsomebody** · 02-12-2004, 05:24 PM

There's always the question of how reliable that info is but at least according to it, eod injections of Prop ought to be fine as far as maintaining blood levels.

**Devourer** · 02-12-2004, 05:29 PM

isnt that for deca though?

**ichabodcrane** · 02-12-2004, 05:39 PM

It is for nandrolone , but remember it is the ester that determines half-life and not the parent molecule. Notice the nice high peak, which occurs early and at ~ 1 day with the prop ester! It doesen't really start to decline until day 2-3 so this is why you need ED or EOD injects. Nice post JS!

**einstein1905** · 02-12-2004, 05:51 PM

With the decanoate, the 4mL shot yielded a lower nM peak for the same period of time as a 1mL shot. The half-life wouldn't change, but the peak should be approximately 4x that of the 1mL shot. The error bars are big, but not big enough to account for that.

**JohnDoe1234** · 02-12-2004, 11:24 PM

Got any charts for Tren ?

**Warrior** · 02-12-2004, 11:30 PM

THAT IS PHENYL-PROPINATE WHICH IS HEAVIER THAN PROPINATE... once again, to say that is a graph of propinate is incorrect. You can find one in Ananbolics 2003 - propinate releases quickly than takes a huge drop on the third day. Half life would be close or on the third day...

**Warrior** · 02-12-2004, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by JohnDoe1234

Got any charts for Tren?

Trenbolone is an anabolic steroid - it is not an ester... as a suspension you would have an active life of a matter of hours...

**einstein1905** · 02-13-2004, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior

Trenbolone is an anabolic steroid - it is not an ester... as a suspension you would have an active life of a matter of hours...

For some reason, I've read that trenbolone itself has a 24 hr half-life. I don't remember where I read that though. In almost every case, the steroid itself is negligible compared to the ester.
For tren acetate...

http://www.fitnessgeared.com/forum/s...threadid=19784

**Da Bull** · 02-13-2004, 12:38 AM

Interesting post on the frontload of fina.

**Warrior** · 02-13-2004, 12:39 AM

Acetate's half life is around 24-36 hours...

**Mealticket** · 02-13-2004, 12:53 AM

nice post

**einstein1905** · 02-13-2004, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior

Acetate's half life is around 24-36 hours...

Yeah, I've seen posted anywhere from 24-48 hrs for acetate, but for trenbolone unesterified I've seen it noted as having a 24 hr half-life. Since I can't remember where, I can't vouch for that number.

**HollywoodM3** · 02-14-2004, 09:22 AM

I just looked at that graph, does it make a difference where you inject as to how well the compount will respond, just wondering for rotating spots??

HW

**ichabodcrane** · 02-14-2004, 02:42 PM

I will just add that p-prop is one of those weird esters which does not follow the general rule. Generally as you increase the carbon chain length of the ester, you would expect to notice increased half-life. Vice versa for shorter esters. P-prop has a half-life similar to propionate even though it is C9 vs. C3 for prop. Half life is directly proportional to the carbon chain length of the ester and then the log partition coeffecient (oil/water solubility) of the ester. So the more lipid soluble an ester is the higher the partition coeffecient, and hence higher the half-life. So by having an ester with a longer carbon chain, this allows the AAS molecule to be more readily dissolved in lipid/oil at any one time than in the blood. This slows the transfer of the molecule into the blood and extends the half-life. But phenylprop is an odd one because even though it is an ester with a longer carbon chain, it exhibits a half-life very similar to propionate ester. So you must look at its partition coeffecient. Also, yes, the volume of AAS injected as well as the muscle injected into can alter the release rate of the AAS and provide different concentrations vs. time. Although this difference may be small. Just food for thought.

**Pwrlfter** · 02-14-2004, 02:43 PM

If I'm reading the chart right, a higher concentration depot gives a higher blood conc., assuming that each line is the same weight of gear in either 1 or 4 ml of oil.

**Pwrlfter** · 02-14-2004, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by ichabodcrane

I will just add that p-prop is one of those weird esters which does not follow the general rule. Generally as you increase the carbon chain length of the ester, you would expect to notice increased half-life. Vice versa for shorter esters. P-prop has a half-life similar to propionate even though it is C9 vs. C3 for prop. Half life is directly proportional to the carbon chain length of the ester and then the log partition coeffecient (oil/water solubility) of the ester. So the more lipid soluble an ester is the higher the partition coeffecient, and hence higher the half-life. So by having an ester with a longer carbon chain, this allows the AAS molecule to be more readily dissolved in lipid/oil at any one time than in the blood. This slows the transfer of the molecule into the blood and extends the half-life. But phenylprop is an odd one because even though it is an ester with a longer carbon chain, it exhibits a half-life very similar to propionate ester. So you must look at its partition coeffecient. Also, yes, the volume of AAS injected as well as the muscle injected into can alter the release rate of the AAS and provide different concentrations vs. time. Although this difference may be small. Just food for thought.

Just saw this post ..... phenylpropionate isn't a long chain, its a propyl ester with a 6 membered aromatic ring hooked to it. Phenyl is the name for benzene when it is hooked onto another group. Benzene is a cyclic compound with 3 double bonds that actually take the form of an electron cloud above and below the ring, and the double bond electrons are spread out equally over the ring.

**johnsomebody** · 02-14-2004, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior

THAT IS PHENYL-PROPINATE WHICH IS HEAVIER THAN PROPINATE... once again, to say that is a graph of propinate is incorrect. You can find one in Ananbolics 2003 - propinate releases quickly than takes a huge drop on the third day. Half life would be close or on the third day...

Sorry about any confusion but I'd always assumed Phenylpropionate and propionate had similar halflives. I have read Phenylprop's is longer than straight prop by a day or so, but as Ichabod points out they're at least quite simlar.

Everything I've read about Prop's half life says a minimum of four days or as long as five -usually 4.5 is the compromise number. That's what's listed at Anabolex' page on half-lives, for example... http://www.anabolex.com/modules.php?...howpage&pid=12

It's then reasonable to assume that at a four day halflife eod injections -half the halflife -should be fine.

**johnsomebody** · 02-14-2004, 06:36 PM

Note also that the Anabolex page lists the halflife of Acetate, which is the ester usually associated with Trenbolone , at 3 days, which explains the need for ed injections.

**johnsomebody** · 02-14-2004, 06:38 PM

And by the way Warrior IT'S IMPOLITE TO SHOUT!

**Warrior** · 02-15-2004, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by johnsomebody

And by the way Warrior IT'S IMPOLITE TO SHOUT!

And by the may Mr SOMEbody - I DON'T REALLY CARE WHAT YOUR RULES ARE HERE. I can highlight a retort by using caps or bold type - its my choice stud.

If you don't like how I type - than put me on your ignore list... luego...

**Mealticket** · 02-15-2004, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior

And by the may Mr SOMEbody - I DON'T REALLY CARE WHAT YOUR RULES ARE HERE. I can highlight a retort by using caps or bold type - its my choice stud.

If you don't like how I type - than put me on your ignore list... luego...

Cat Fight

**ichabodcrane** · 02-15-2004, 05:28 PM

Yes p-prop is a prop ester with a benzene ring or benzyl group or phenyl ring or 6 membered aromatic ring attached, whichever you prefer. My point was that it does contain more carbons than regular prop ester, so one might assume that it therefore would have an increased half-life vs. prop. If you counted the total carbons atoms vs. those in prop, you would notice it does contain more. You are right, my wording should have been more careful, but I think you get my point. Yes I am aware of what a benzene ring looks like, and yes I took chem, o-chem, med-chem and p-chem, (Can't say I remember much, but that is not the point ) and yes we could go on and spew chemical properties like the resonance theory which accounts for the stability of benzene and by saying it is a planar molecule with the shape of a regular hexagon, and all C-C bonds are 120 degrees, all 6 carbon atoms are sp^2 hybridized, and each carbon has a p orbital perpendicular to the plane of the 6 membered ring, and on and on. Sure, you may know more than me when it comes to chemistry. I did not major in chem, rather pharmacy/pharmacology. My point was simply that p-prop contains more carbons than regular prop, whether thery are open or closed, and is often confused with having a longer half-life. Again, sorry for not wording my reply correctly, I give you that. It is not about who is smarter than who, but how we can relate this info to help eachother.

Originally Posted by Pwrlfter

Just saw this post ..... phenylpropionate isn't a long chain, its a propyl ester with a 6 membered aromatic ring hooked to it. Phenyl is the name for benzene when it is hooked onto another group. Benzene is a cyclic compound with 3 double bonds that actually take the form of an electron cloud above and below the ring, and the double bond electrons are spread out equally over the ring.

**ichabodcrane** · 02-15-2004, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior

And by the may Mr SOMEbody - I DON'T REALLY CARE WHAT YOUR RULES ARE HERE. I can highlight a retort by using caps or bold type - its my choice stud.

If you don't like how I type - than put me on your ignore list... luego...

What is going on? Js simply stated you can easily make a point w/o going ballistic. I did not read anywhere that these were his rules, did you? You should care, because he did nothing to offend you! Why is everyone so hell-bent on dogging eachother? JS apologized for any confusion he may have caused. That is more than I see you doing??? Instead you prefer to bash someone as opposed to being an adult about it. Who cares? Put it to rest, cuz I know I did!!

**Pwrlfter** · 02-15-2004, 06:22 PM

I wasn't flaming you ichabod, just elaborating on what you said. Also you forgot to put that all the bond lengths in benzene are inbetween the that of sp3 and sp2 hybridized carbons, and that benzene follows Huckel's rule, 4n+2 where n=1, and that the added stability is in comparison to the fictional 1,3,5-cyclohexatriene .... j/k

My point was that it wasn't a proper argument to compare a straight chain ester to one with an aromatic ring attached to it. While there is a loose general trend to the half-life of straight chain aliphatic esters, that breaks down at higher chain lengths, such as the octanoic ester is less active and has a shorter half-life than the enanthate or nonanoate. Hexadecanoate has little activity and a short half-life which is probably due to a size limitation in the active site of the enzyme that hydrolyses the ester moiety. And branched chain esters show low activity due steric hinderance; Very sterically hindered esters are next to impossible to cleave, with the exception of tert-butoxy which you can cleave with TFA.
So there may be a general trend regarding number of carbons and half-life, in reality it's just not that simple

Gould, D.; J. Amer. Chem. Soc., 79, 1957, 4472-4475.

**johnsomebody** · 02-15-2004, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior

And by the may Mr SOMEbody - I DON'T REALLY CARE WHAT YOUR RULES ARE HERE. I can highlight a retort by using caps or bold type - its my choice stud.

If you don't like how I type - than put me on your ignore list... luego...

You can certainly rant and rave and scream and yell all you want to and it's still rude just the same. Those aren't my rules, it's just the way it is.

**powerlifter** · 02-15-2004, 06:26 PM

good info on the prop

**ichabodcrane** · 02-15-2004, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by powerlifter

good info on the prop

No offense taken. Sure there is a relation between carbon length and t1/2, and it does seem to fall away from the general rule once you reach around 10 C atoms. But t1/2 is also dependent on oil/water solubility of the ester, as well as chemical properties of the ester, and never the parent molecule. This probably explains the half-life seen with the p-prop ester. Also, if you read the article where JS obtained his graph from, it is interesting to note (although already assumed) that the volume of oil injected, as well as the muscle injected into can change release rates, thereby changing clearance of the AAS. http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/co...ll/281/1/93#F2 Anyways you post good info. I just hear alot of people who are misinformed and automatically assume a larger ester, regardless of chemical properties, has a higher t1/2. It is that simple but at the same time always complicated. Oh! by the way, do you have a copy of your journal article you sited?

**Pwrlfter** · 02-15-2004, 09:08 PM

I'll e-mail the paper to you if I can figure out how. It's too big to post as an attachment here.

**Pwrlfter** · 02-15-2004, 09:23 PM

Check you PM, I couldn't email you the paper because your not accepting them, so I cut and paste the article minus the tables(which are very interesting, but come out crazy looking when pasted), and the experimentals since I was limited to 10,000 characters.