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  1. #1
    Whitey is offline Anabolic Member
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    Insight into time on/time off for Slin

    These are some questions I researched for myself and some of the bros here at AR. After a thoughful and educated response from RedBaron @ I 4 L, I asked if he wouldn't mind if I shared his posts with the boys at AR, as I think this info will be beneficial for all insulin users.

    Originally Posted by Whitey at I 4 L:

    These are some questions I've been thinking about regarding time on/time off for slin, and avoiding insulin resistance and dependence.

    1. The general rule is 4 wks on, 4 wks off - shot PWO. Does it make a difference how frequent the shots are over the 4 wk period?

    In other words, wouldn't there seem to be a big difference between a user who shoots ED vs. 1 day per wk? Couldn't the user who shoots 1x per week expect to run slin longer than 4 wks, without developing a dependency? How about 3x per week?

    2. Should non-insulin users be concerned over constantly using dextrose to spike their insulin levels PWO? Should this practice be given time off, as well?

    Obviously, there is a difference between injecting exogenous insulin and producing your own, in response to a sugar spike. However, individuals who consistently consume diets loaded with simple sugars often develop insulin-dependent diabetes.

    Just some food for thought here. Hopefully we can have an intelligent discussion and increase our understanding (or at least mine) of supplementing with insulin.

  2. #2
    Whitey is offline Anabolic Member
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    Response from RedBaron at I 4 L:

    1) Certainly the frequency would come into play to some degree. You could inject 1X per week probably indefinitely without too much worry. If you are running 4-5 days a week, then the 4 week on / 4 week off is pretty safe advice to follow.

    I typically inject 3-4 days a week in 5 week on / 5 week off cycles. The most important thing is to monitor yourself at all points when using insulin . If you have been monitoring yourself all along the way and keeping a log, you will notice if the time comes when exogenous insulin use is not effecting your BG levels as it has been in the past, which could possibly point to insulin resistance.

    It is also important to use just what you need. For the majority of people 8-15 IU's of insulin post workout on workout days only is all that you need, but I can't tell you how many times I have ventured to various forums where you will have these yahoo's talking about using insulin 20 IU's at a time 4 or 5 times a day everyday for a month .... these are the folks that create the horror stories that we hear about, not the ones of us using insulin properly for bodybuilding. Even 300 + pound pros can usually get by with using around 20 IU's a day on workout days only of slin.

    Overuse will only cause insulin resistance. Your body is only able to utilize so much sugar and will protect itself from high insulin levels by building a resistance to it in constance presence of supraphysiologic levels. Sugar is actually a toxin to the body above the amount needed to fuel the brain and glycogen for the muscles. That is why diabetes is such a dangerous condition. Sugar levels above the lower 200's mg/dl for any length of time will kill off your small blood vessels, damage your kidneys, and in general start killing off other organs. That is why insulin is such an important hormone. It is your body's only defense against sugar buildup in the blood-stream.

    2) A non-insulin user wouldn't have to be concerned about their post workout dextrose shake assuming the rest of their diet is clean. The problem with today's society is that we live in an age of super-refined foods - flour, sugar, high fructose corn syrup, etc. are the primary ingredients of TONS of the food that we buy.

    If your diet includes a bunch of the typical garbage that is in most supermarkets and quicky-stops, then you are almost certainly already insulin resistant and on your way to type II diabetes whether you realize it or not. In this case, a post workout dextrose shake probably won't even result in a insulin spike at all .... the pancreas has most likely burned out and given up long ago.

    A typical bodybuilder is more careful with their diet than the average person though. We eat fresh vegetables, fresh fruits, and clean, fat free meats whenver humanly possible. In our case, a single shake a day of dextrose will spike our endogenous insulin level and get that dextrose to our our muscles to refuel glycogen stores after our workout and start the healing and growing. It won't cause a problem with the 3-5 times a week we workout to use this shake over the long haul.

    If our diet is crap then certainly some time off would be in order .... but that time off should include time away from all the other sugars and super-refined flours and other insulin triggers as well.

  3. #3
    Whitey is offline Anabolic Member
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    Something we need to be more cognizant of in our insulin supplementation is developing insulin resistance. We should be monitoring or BG levels not only to prevent hypoglycemia, but also to detect long-term trends and changes in our bodies' response to insulin. For those of us who may have been negligent in this practice already and have developed a resistance, I asked Baron this follow-up question:

    Originally posted by Whitey:
    There are some supplements, such as ALA and r-ALA, that help to increase insulin sensitivity. Are there any long-term cures that we know of for those who have become insulin-resistant?

  4. #4
    Whitey is offline Anabolic Member
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    Response by RedBaron:
    For the most part, the body can recover from being insulin resistant. As you mentioned, there are some supps that will assist. Taking 300 - 500 mg of r-ALA or K-rALA along with 300mcg's or so of GTF Chromium or Chromium Piccinolate will help. If you have a really serious case of insulin resistance, getting your doctor to prescribe something along the lines of Actos (30mg) and even possibly MetFormin for a while will help.

    The MOST important part to recovery will be getting your diet in check and keeping it in check for several months. The body is a very resilient thing, and in the absence of some underlying problem, if given the opportunity it will repair itself and recover.

    You won't necessarily have to follow a ketogenic diet for this time (though that would be one option), but you will definiitely need to become acquainted with the glycemic index and make sure that ALL of your meals stay really low on the scale. You will need to avoid spiking your insulin levels for a few months to recover (though actually after just several days your body has already begun responding better).

    At any rate, for all but the most dire resistance problems, you can get back on track with some careful eating and the right supps. The best plan of attack is to be monitoring yourself so you can catch any problem before it gets to be a big problem.

  5. #5
    Whitey is offline Anabolic Member
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    Hope this is helpful to you all. Feel free to post any questions you might have, and I will be glad to help.

  6. #6
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    Gear is offline HGH/IGF/Insulin Forum ~ AR-Hall of Famer
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    Thanx Whitey, good read. Haven't seen RB on AR lately. Hope everything is kool.

    -Gear

  7. #7
    Whitey is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gear
    Thanx Whitey, good read. Haven't seen RB on AR lately. Hope everything is kool.

    -Gear
    Cheers, bro. Yeah, as I understand it, RB is spending most of his time on the boards where he is a mod now. I believe it is more an issue of just having so many hours in the day, than it is anything else.

  8. #8
    Gear's Avatar
    Gear is offline HGH/IGF/Insulin Forum ~ AR-Hall of Famer
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    Ok, now I understand why he hasn't been around. Well good to hear he is all well and still giving advice. And good on him for earning his moderator position, I am sure his position was well deserved.

    Good seeing you around Whitey.

    -Gear

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