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  1. #1
    Seattle Junk's Avatar
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    l3 IGF-1 + GH - When?

    I didn't mean to hijack the 10iu GH thread so I created another one.

    If you've been on GH long enough to where you're producing a high amount of IGF-1 via your liver (2-3+ months), what's the benefit of using l3 IGF-1 ontop of that? Isn't that opening yourself up to possible sides? I can see using l3 IGF-1 at the initiation of GH/AAS since it takes a few months before your liver start releasing higher amounts of IGF-1. Please help me understand this, thanks.

  2. #2
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    There's a study floating around that shows LR3 doesn't give negative feedback, it was done on pigs, which are supposed to have a similar system as ours.

    The only reason I can see is to lower HGH doses, but if you're going to go for 10iu a day, I'd go with LR3 over those high doses. Reason being, HGH increases IGF-II also, which causes gut growth, which is a side effect we're not looking for. LR3 has been shown not to increase gut weight and it doesn't increase IGF-II, so the possibility of that side effect is lowered.

    I'm sure you've heard me say this before, but from now on, I won't buy anymore HGH, I'll stick with LR3, I'll pay a co-pay for HGH but won't buy it out right

    JohnnyB

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    SPIKE's Avatar
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    This is an interesting thread that holds some info that could probably change a lot of peoples ways of cycling GH. What do you think some good numbers would be for dropping the GH dosage?

    Lets take my scenerio for example . I'm currently running 3.6IU 5on 2 off. Now I'm starting my LR3 next week. What dosage should I drop my GH to? 2IU 5 on 2 off? Then resume 3.6 when off the IGF-LR3 and back on the Slin?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhova16
    This is an interesting thread that holds some info that could probably change a lot of peoples ways of cycling GH. What do you think some good numbers would be for dropping the GH dosage?

    Lets take my scenerio for example . I'm currently running 3.6IU 5on 2 off. Now I'm starting my LR3 next week. What dosage should I drop my GH to? 2IU 5 on 2 off? Then resume 3.6 when off the IGF-LR3 and back on the Slin?
    when on igf i would lower the dose to 2iu before bed.if your takin the igf ed then go ed with the gh also.

    -rodge

  5. #5
    MorganKane is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodge nl.
    when on igf i would lower the dose to 2iu before bed.if your takin the igf ed then go ed with the gh also.

    -rodge
    I work out in the evening.
    Sometime I am not done before 9pm.
    If I shoot IGF after that, should I still do 2iu HGH right before bed or would you recommend something different.

    Thanks,

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    Quote Originally Posted by MorganKane
    I work out in the evening.
    Sometime I am not done before 9pm.
    If I shoot IGF after that, should I still do 2iu HGH right before bed or would you recommend something different.

    Thanks,
    Just change the HGH to am

    JohnnyB

  7. #7
    rodge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    Just change the HGH to am

    JohnnyB
    whats your reason behind this? i would still take it before bed as this is were your body would produce its most gh normally and thus mimicking a normal pattern.i think the body does everything with a reason,and it prob needs hgh at night the most.anyway i still do it this way only cause it makes me sleep like a baby.

    -rodge

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    SPIKE's Avatar
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    Wait, I'm confused now. I thought that when running Gh and IGF-1LR3 you are supposed to Inject the Gh about 5 minutes after injecting the IGF-1LR3. Or was that Slin?? Now that I think about it I think it was the Slin.

    You're always very in depth with your answers and more so you give an explanation of your answer to back it. Can you do me/us a huge favor and explain when to inject GH when on Slin and/or IGF-1LR3.

    Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhova16
    Wait, I'm confused now. I thought that when running Gh and IGF-1LR3 you are supposed to Inject the Gh about 5 minutes after injecting the IGF-1LR3. Or was that Slin?? Now that I think about it I think it was the Slin.

    You're always very in depth with your answers and more so you give an explanation of your answer to back it. Can you do me/us a huge favor and explain when to inject GH when on Slin and/or IGF-1LR3.

    Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    in my opinion,

    hgh only- AM and before bed
    hgh/slin- 1 dose of hgh close after slin
    igf- pwo
    igf/hgh- igf pwo,hgh before bed

    when on hgh/slin i shoot 1 dose in the AM and the other pwo wich is for me 2hrs before bed.but again if its possible cause you workout earlyer in the day then shoot 1 dose of hgh before bed.

    -rodge

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    SPIKE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodge nl.
    in my opinion,

    hgh only- AM and before bed
    hgh/slin- 1 dose of hgh close after slin
    igf- pwo
    igf/hgh- igf pwo,hgh before bed

    when on hgh/slin i shoot 1 dose in the AM and the other pwo wich is for me 2hrs before bed.but again if its possible cause you workout earlyer in the day then shoot 1 dose of hgh before bed.

    -rodge

    OK so it was Slin that I was thinking of. It couldn't have been broken down any easier than that Rodge, thank you very much.

  11. #11
    MorganKane is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodge nl.
    in my opinion,

    hgh only- AM and before bed
    hgh/slin- 1 dose of hgh close after slin
    igf- pwo
    igf/hgh- igf pwo,hgh before bed

    when on hgh/slin i shoot 1 dose in the AM and the other pwo wich is for me 2hrs before bed.but again if its possible cause you workout earlyer in the day then shoot 1 dose of hgh before bed.

    -rodge
    Do not mean to hijack this thread, I dont think I am.

    I plan to run IGF + HGH.
    50mg IGF ED (30 days)
    2 IU HGH 5/2

    On Workout days
    50 mg IGF post work out and 2IU HGH before bed

    Other days
    IGF in the morning and HGH in bed, is this a good idea?

    When IGF cycle is over I plan to bump HGH to 4 iu 5/2

    Will probably run IGF again 60 days after first IGF cycle.

    Does this make sense?

    I am an old man
    Turning 40 next month.

    Will also add some AAS in there too.

    I would appriciate some suggestions.

  12. #12
    Seattle Junk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodge nl.
    in my opinion,

    hgh only- AM and before bed
    hgh/slin- 1 dose of hgh close after slin
    igf- pwo
    igf/hgh- igf pwo,hgh before bed

    when on hgh/slin i shoot 1 dose in the AM and the other pwo wich is for me 2hrs before bed.but again if its possible cause you workout earlyer in the day then shoot 1 dose of hgh before bed.

    -rodge
    Do you recommend IGF immediatly PWO? Do you take it to the gym with you or rush home?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodge nl.
    whats your reason behind this? i would still take it before bed as this is were your body would produce its most gh normally and thus mimicking a normal pattern.i think the body does everything with a reason,and it prob needs hgh at night the most.anyway i still do it this way only cause it makes me sleep like a baby.

    -rodge
    I agree, but with the half-life of LR3 it will give him elevated IGF-1 levels when he goes to bed, assuming he goes to bed with-in those 6 hours. So for this reason I'd go am with the HGH, the LR3 will be repairing his muscles while he sleeps, for the first few hours.

    Here's something to think about, there's a study that showed LR3 had no negative feedback on HGH or IGF-1 while it was active, I believe this was done on a pig, which are supposed to have a similar system as ours. Damn that bothers me, that would mean, women are right when they call men pigs

    I'd also wake up and have a shake ready to drink with-in 3 hours of going to sleep.

    JohnnyB

  14. #14
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    Okay here it is and it wasn't pigs, they only said animals


    Synergistic interaction between insulin-like growth factors-I and -II in central regulation of pulsatile growth hormone secretion.

    Harel Z, Tannenbaum GS.

    Department of Pediatrics, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

    Insulin -like growth factor (IGF)-I and -II peptides, receptors, mRNAs, and binding proteins are widely distributed in the central nervous system (CNS), yet their physiological role in the brain remains largely unknown. While earlier in vivo studies in the rat suggested that IGF-I may participate in feedback regulation of GH secretion at a CNS level, the preparations used were only partially pure. The recent availability of purified recombinant IGF-I and -II peptides prompted us to reexamine the involvement of the IGFs in vivo in central regulation of pulsatile GH secretion. Five groups of free-moving adult male rats bearing chronic intracerebroventricular (icv) and intracardiac venous cannulae were icv administered IGF-I (in doses of 0.5, 2, 3, and 10 micrograms) or the acid-saline vehicle; an additional group received 1 microgram of the potent IGF-I analog, long R3 IGF-I. Spontaneous 6-h plasma GH secretory profiles were obtained from all groups. Vehicle-injected control animals exhibited the typical pulsatile pattern of GH secretion, with most peak GH values above 150 ng/ml and trough levels below 1.2 ng/ml. Central administration of IGF-I alone or long R3 IGF-I at all doses tested failed to alter the pulsatile pattern of GH release; there were no significant differences in GH peak amplitude, GH trough level, GH interpeak interval, or mean 6-h plasma GH level compared to those in vehicle-injected controls. In a second study, designed to determine the effects of central administration of IGF-I and IGF-II, in combination, icv injection of 1 microgram IGF-I and 1 microgram IGF-II resulted in a marked suppression in the amplitude of spontaneous GH secretory bursts approximately 3 h after injection; both GH pulse amplitude (43.5 +/- 5.6 vs. 130.6 +/- 14.6 ng/ml; P less than 0.001) and mean plasma GH level (16.3 +/- 1.9 vs. 35.2 +/- 1.8 ng/ml; P less than 0.001) were severely reduced 3-6 h after injection compared to those in vehicle-injected controls. These results demonstrate that IGF-I alone does not play a physiologically important role in feedback regulation of GH secretion at the level of the CNS. Our findings suggest a synergistic interaction between IGF-I and -II in the brain for central control of pulsatile GH secretion.
    --------------------------

    I have the full research report, it's going to take some time to read, but I'll go through it and see what else I come up with.

    JohnnyB

  15. #15
    rodge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorganKane
    Do not mean to hijack this thread, I dont think I am.

    I plan to run IGF + HGH.
    50mg IGF ED (30 days)
    2 IU HGH 5/2

    On Workout days
    50 mg IGF post work out and 2IU HGH before bed

    Other days
    IGF in the morning and HGH in bed, is this a good idea?

    When IGF cycle is over I plan to bump HGH to 4 iu 5/2

    Will probably run IGF again 60 days after first IGF cycle.

    Does this make sense?

    I am an old man
    Turning 40 next month.

    Will also add some AAS in there too.

    I would appriciate some suggestions.
    looks solid to me,only thing i would change is switch hgh to ed when on igf.after that back to 5/2.

    -rodge

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Junk
    Do you recommend IGF immediatly PWO? Do you take it to the gym with you or rush home?
    slin i take to the gym but igf i shoot at home cause i would'nt want to leave it un-refridgerated plus i would allready have to add BW. so i rush home for that but i only live a 5 minute walk from the gym,and i still go by car

    -rodge

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodge nl.
    in my opinion,

    hgh only- AM and before bed
    hgh/slin- 1 dose of hgh close after slin
    igf- pwo
    igf/hgh- igf pwo,hgh before bed

    when on hgh/slin i shoot 1 dose in the AM and the other pwo wich is for me 2hrs before bed.but again if its possible cause you workout earlyer in the day then shoot 1 dose of hgh before bed.

    -rodge
    I disagree with the before bed dose of HGH.Explain to me why you wouldn't take advantage of your natural Gh release at sleep?
    I'll take an educated guess and say your reply will be,to increase the levels while sleeping,over a minimal level secreted naturally.Being the body repairs itself while sleeping.Thus would be a good idea for high levels of HGH.

    My retort would be,the human body does real well repairing itself with the natural release of HGH while asleep.I haven't seen any studies that support a higher level of HGH will speed up muscle recovery at sleep.Nor more growth.
    IMO,an AM and early afternoon dose is the best scenario.I don't remember where I saw several studies showing the male body catabolic in the early afternoon hours(around 2pm).But there are several studies out there to support this.


    ~Pinnacle~

  18. #18
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    the raised igf-1 levels create a negative feedback loop and thus the pituary won't secret endo hgh.and since i did my last bloodwork 3 days after last hgh administration and my igf-1 levels were still elevated i would say litle to no natural gh release untill igf-1 levels drop below normall.

    -rodge

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodge nl.
    the raised igf-1 levels create a negative feedback loop and thus the pituary won't secret endo hgh.and since i did my last bloodwork 3 days after last hgh administration and my igf-1 levels were still elevated i would say litle to no natural gh release untill igf-1 levels drop below normall.

    -rodge
    Thanks for the reply.That's extremely interesting and educational.Suddenly you have me rethinking my HGH dose times.At least when I'm not running IGF.

    Let me ask your opinion about this scenario.
    I train evenings.Right now I'm in day 5 of an IGF cycle(100 mcgs).I also am running 6 iu's of HGH(year round).If I'm reading you correctly,then at this point I wouldn't need HGH in the PM because of the fact I administer IGF in the evening after training.There wouldn't be a need for both since the IGF is the stronger of the 2 factors?Or am I thinking in reverse here,and actually would need HGH PM as well?


    ~Pinnacle~

  20. #20
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    first of all i would split up the igf in 50mcg upon wakening and 50mcg pwo.and when on igf i would lower the hgh to 2iu before bed this to avoid sides.

    -rodge

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodge nl.
    the raised igf-1 levels create a negative feedback loop and thus the pituary won't secret endo hgh.

    -rodge
    So you don't think much of the study I posted? Can you imagine the possiblities if this is the case for humans

    JohnnyB

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    So you don't think much of the study I posted? Can you imagine the possiblities if this is the case for humans

    JohnnyB
    it would be great but then why is it that gains slow down or even stop after about 6-7 weeks of lr3? and we need to take a break to cycle it again but it seems that you can use it longer,effectively, when on hgh. is'nt this because of recruiting sattelite cells from the hgh?meaning this won't happen when on lr3 only and thus we are'nt releasing any endo hgh.

    interesting debate tho,

    -rodge

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodge nl.
    i rush home for that but i only live a 5 minute walk from the gym,and i still go by car

    -rodge
    LOL. That reminds me of the people that piss me off, especially my clients. They'll be late and tell me they were trying to find a spot. So I tell them to come early and park in the very far corner of the lot. I mean honestly.................they are coming to a gym to do cardio and train but dont want to walk 100 feet.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhova16
    LOL. That reminds me of the people that piss me off, especially my clients. They'll be late and tell me they were trying to find a spot. So I tell them to come early and park in the very far corner of the lot. I mean honestly.................they are coming to a gym to do cardio and train but dont want to walk 100 feet.
    guilty

    -rodge

  25. #25
    Seattle Junk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    Okay here it is and it wasn't pigs, they only said animals


    Synergistic interaction between insulin-like growth factors-I and -II in central regulation of pulsatile growth hormone secretion.

    Harel Z, Tannenbaum GS.

    Department of Pediatrics, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

    Insulin -like growth factor (IGF)-I and -II peptides, receptors, mRNAs, and binding proteins are widely distributed in the central nervous system (CNS), yet their physiological role in the brain remains largely unknown. While earlier in vivo studies in the rat suggested that IGF-I may participate in feedback regulation of GH secretion at a CNS level, the preparations used were only partially pure. The recent availability of purified recombinant IGF-I and -II peptides prompted us to reexamine the involvement of the IGFs in vivo in central regulation of pulsatile GH secretion. Five groups of free-moving adult male rats bearing chronic intracerebroventricular (icv) and intracardiac venous cannulae were icv administered IGF-I (in doses of 0.5, 2, 3, and 10 micrograms) or the acid-saline vehicle; an additional group received 1 microgram of the potent IGF-I analog, long R3 IGF-I. Spontaneous 6-h plasma GH secretory profiles were obtained from all groups. Vehicle-injected control animals exhibited the typical pulsatile pattern of GH secretion, with most peak GH values above 150 ng/ml and trough levels below 1.2 ng/ml. Central administration of IGF-I alone or long R3 IGF-I at all doses tested failed to alter the pulsatile pattern of GH release; there were no significant differences in GH peak amplitude, GH trough level, GH interpeak interval, or mean 6-h plasma GH level compared to those in vehicle-injected controls. In a second study, designed to determine the effects of central administration of IGF-I and IGF-II, in combination, icv injection of 1 microgram IGF-I and 1 microgram IGF-II resulted in a marked suppression in the amplitude of spontaneous GH secretory bursts approximately 3 h after injection; both GH pulse amplitude (43.5 +/- 5.6 vs. 130.6 +/- 14.6 ng/ml; P less than 0.001) and mean plasma GH level (16.3 +/- 1.9 vs. 35.2 +/- 1.8 ng/ml; P less than 0.001) were severely reduced 3-6 h after injection compared to those in vehicle-injected controls. These results demonstrate that IGF-I alone does not play a physiologically important role in feedback regulation of GH secretion at the level of the CNS. Our findings suggest a synergistic interaction between IGF-I and -II in the brain for central control of pulsatile GH secretion.
    --------------------------

    I have the full research report, it's going to take some time to read, but I'll go through it and see what else I come up with.

    JohnnyB
    They were rats.

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