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  1. #1
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    Exclamation coming off juice after 6 months

    Hi,

    I have been using steroids for the last 2 years now and my longest course was 14 weeks which w end with hcg clomid and HGH and arimidex . But in 2004 i have been on juice since june and im still on it which makes it 7 months. Yes its dumb i know but here i am and now my testies are the size of peanuts and my hair is very very thin. I the last 7 months ive been using almost everything, yes i know dumb very dumb. I started in june with equipose and winstroll and moved on to trenbolan growth Hormone sustanon and deca . Nethless to say my testostorone production is completely halted (hence peanut testis). I decided i have to come off and im planing to take last sustanon on the 20th. Now i already have Arimidex, nolvadex , proviron , HCG(5000 iu) HCG(2500 iu), clenbuterol and looots of clomid ready for post cycle.
    After the last injection of sustanon i plan on waiting 3 weeks and start with HCG but im a bit confused.

    In the front section of this site "how to come off steroids" it says that i should take 5000 iu of hcg 3 times in 3 day interval is that correct? is it not too much?

    well if it is correct this is what i plan on doing and id like some opinions.
    last injection of sus on 20th -----
    after 1 week start proviron and nolvadex 1 tab a day of each.
    after 3 weeks of the last sus injection add HCG(5000 iu) 3 times in 3 day period which means 5000 iu every day in those 3 days.
    Once i start HCG i would discontinue proviron and start with arimidex but still
    carry on with nolvadex.
    after those 3 injections i would do another HCG 5000 iu 5 days later and another 5 days after that one.This is where i would stop HCG and carry on with clomid 2 tabds (50 mg) a day for next 2 weeks and 1 tab a day for Another 2 weeks terminating arimidex, carrying on with nolvadex and also when i start clomid start clenbuterol as well which i plan on taking for 6 weeks to try and prevent the catabolic phase.
    I would be using nolvadex throughout this whole period where arimidex would be discontinued 5 days after the last HCG injection.

    Please feel free to add your opinions since i have never been on juice so long so i dont know how will my body react. I am at 93 Kgs with 9% body fat and stong as an OX right now but i fear that i might lose a lot if the post cycle therapy is not done correctly and precisely.
    I am also worried about cortisol but the anti cortisol drugs are extremely expensive and with lots of side effects on its own which i would like to avoid.

    Thanks very much
    Lex

  2. #2
    scorp's Avatar
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    Have you had any bloodwork done to see exactly where your levels are at from a hormonal perspective? Seriously. You should consider getting a complete hormonal profile and complete wellness profile done. It would be very wise to do so. Do not even try to guess this **** brother. It is impossible. You need not further your issues.

  3. #3
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    after such a heavy and long use of juice i dont really need to do blood work at this stage because all it will show is high test levels remember im still on the juice hence blood work would be pointless, i know my testostorone is supressed from by just looking at my testies. but i will deffinately do it after the post cycle therapy .

  4. #4
    scorp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Lex
    after such a heavy and long use of juice i dont really need to do blood work at this stage because all it will show is high test levels remember im still on the juice hence blood work would be pointless, i know my testostorone is supressed from by just looking at my testies. but i will deffinately do it after the post cycle therapy.
    You need to get bloodwork done to see exactly what is going on with all of the parameters associated with your cycle. There are many things that could be suppressed besides your natty test production. There could be many thing are elevated besides your free test level. You have been cycling for 2 years, I have been cycleing for 18 years. Bloodwork is essestial is this game. Do not base your natty test level on the shrunken nut syndrome scenario. Details are very important. You need to know what is going on pre-mid-post-6 weeks after PCT. How in the world are you ever going to know how, what and why your body is responding unless you get bloodwork done? Be proactive. Not reactive.

  5. #5
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    is there no one here with experience and pharmacutical knowledge to give me some feed back on this pct theraphy and dosages?

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    Lex, you should have been using the HCG through the cycle that would have saved your nuts somewhat. HCG isnt supposed to be used during PCT but rather, before PCT.
    For PCT I would run 20mg of Nolvadex right through till you end the Clomid. Start PCT 18 days after your last Sust shot and do 300mg Clomid Day 1 then 100mg clomid Day2-31 Have a look at this thread is is a good explanation about PCT Pheedno's PCT and this will explain HCG Hcg usage - 250iu ED throughout cycle? check it outYou might also want to consider using Clen during PCT it has great fat burning and anticatabolic properties
    Last edited by seanw; 01-07-2005 at 04:15 AM.

  7. #7
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    I made the same mastake in regards to hcg and only took it at end of cycle. Now I do what seanw says and run hcg 500iu mon & fri troughout the cycle. Start your Hcg straight away. Finish hcg 21 days after last shot of sus and start clomid as sated in seanw link. If you wanted you could use fast acting products till the sus is out of your system like prop and winny. This way you can keep the gains going till the end. Take clen , clomid, tribulus, Zma to hold on to your hard erned gains when off. Try to stay off as long as you can to give your body a break after staying on so long if you find it hard to stay off take a very low dose anbolic bridge after about 4 weeks of pct like primo and anavar pct has to be run again after this. If you stay on big doses all year round your body will just need more and more to get the same results. Learned from experence.

  8. #8
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    i would taper down with low dosages of propionat so u dont crash to hard. do this for a few weeks and then start pct. after a month of pct get bt done and check if it is working. u will need a few month of pct and recovery, that s for sure...

  9. #9
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    I read the articles and basically i should not be using proviron hcg or arimidex ? after such a long use of AAs dont i need something to "kick start" the testies into production? This is why i bought lots of HCG ampules cause as far as i understood HCG is used to "kick start" the test prod by mimmicking the LH and FSH and clomid afterwards to actually increase your own LH and FSH production. im confused to the max right now

  10. #10
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    plus everyone seems to be talking about 250 IU and 500IU hcg here in South Africa we only get 2500IU and 5000IU HCG ampules

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    seanw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Lex
    plus everyone seems to be talking about 250 IU and 500IU hcg here in South Africa we only get 2500IU and 5000IU HCG ampules
    Lex, you have to make it up and then put it into Insulin Pins at 250 or 500 IU and store them in the fridge

  12. #12
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    and shoot them like HGH SQ not IM? but it still leaves my question unanswered should i not use arimidex HCG and proviron at all?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Lex
    and shoot them like HGH SQ not IM? but it still leaves my question unanswered should i not use arimidex HCG and proviron at all?
    If you use slin pin you shoot it SQ. You have been on a long time so one of the more experienced guys will have to answer with regards Arimidex and Proviron , but HCG I would do now if you are planning on staying on for a couple more weeks and stop before your start PCT

  14. #14
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    ok so basically start with HCG right now 250IU or 500 IU 2 days in a week, and start nolvadex right now as well or only at the beginning of the pct? sorry im not trying to be a pain just want to understand this properly and precisely.

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    Well better you ask than you do sh!t that will hurt you, thats why we help one another. So yes on both counts, I would do 500IU if HCG and 20mg of Nolvadex

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Lex
    ok so basically start with HCG right now 250IU or 500 IU 2 days in a week, and start nolvadex right now as well or only at the beginning of the pct? sorry im not trying to be a pain just want to understand this properly and precisely.
    big lex, check your pm's.

  17. #17
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    thanks for the info up to now guys more feed back would be very appreciated.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Lex
    ok so basically start with HCG right now 250IU or 500 IU 2 days in a week, and start nolvadex right now as well or only at the beginning of the pct? sorry im not trying to be a pain just want to understand this properly and precisely.
    Yes start HCG now 500iu mon & fri SQ meaning under the skin like HGH with 20mg N/dex before bed as it makes some people tired. Run this with 100mg prop EOD and 40mg winny tabs ED. Stop prop on the thursday and winny tabs on sat and you will be clean of AS by monday. Stop your HCG on sat and start clomid on monday.

  19. #19
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    I personally would run IGF since people claim it helps your body recover from a cycle so well, and will also help keep you from crashing and help you keep your gains.

  20. #20
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    IGF? how do you run IGF? you mean shoot HGH during PCT to increase IGF ? the best i can do is 1 IU a day of humatrope during PCT (my doctor advises me not to go higher since my insulin sensitivity is not great, dont want diabetes type II). still though im sure there are some guys here who have gone on courses for more than 6 months. some of their opinions on PCT would be great. also my question on arimidex and proviron still stands.

  21. #21
    scorp's Avatar
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    Lex-

    Anytime that I use certain AAS compounds that are considered more suppressive than other compounds I run HCG within the cycle and in small doses, lasting no more than 6-8 weeks. For example, If I am running quite a bit of Tren (150mg/EOD) for the first 6 weeks of the cycle, I will implement HCG at 250iu's/Mon and Thurs during weeks 7-12. Given the fact that I have bloodwork done pre-mid-post and 6 weeks after PCT I am able to monitor how my hormonal components are functioning. That amount of HCG is very prudent for me to use and has been a savior in regards to my HPTA. In my 18 years of cycling AAS, I have found it more logical to run HCG during the cycle to promote a better balance in my HPTA, than to run HCG for the last 2-3 weeks of the cycle. It is not prudent to wait until the HPTA is holding up a white flag to run HCG. A lot of what you have earned in terms of muscle mass will wither away when that approach is taken. This game is full of learning curves and we will all learn from our mistakes. At least I would hope so Lex. So you made a bad call, we all have my friend.

  22. #22
    scorp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumbo
    I personally would run IGF since people claim it helps your body recover from a cycle so well, and will also help keep you from crashing and help you keep your gains.
    That is a good idea about using IGF after the completion of a cycle. However, its ability to help the recovery mechanism of the HPTA will be somewhat limited if the HPTA is in shambles. It will help a little but will not solve a major HPTA issue.

  23. #23
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    yes i made a bad call but i dont intend to sit now and wait for the hpta to recover on its own ill lose everything like that. I need someone to write out a PCT well at least recommend something solid. Like i said i have proviron nolva arimidex hcg clomid and clen stocked. but dosages and what to stack with what is my problem right now. But i still have some time so hopefully someone will suggest something in full.
    thanks

  24. #24
    seanw's Avatar
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    Lex post this question in the Steroid Forum, I am sure a lot of guys there never leave it and they may not be seeing this.

  25. #25
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    thanks sean will do that.

  26. #26
    scorp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Lex
    yes i made a bad call but i dont intend to sit now and wait for the hpta to recover on its own ill lose everything like that. I need someone to write out a PCT well at least recommend something solid. Like i said i have proviron nolva arimidex hcg clomid and clen stocked. but dosages and what to stack with what is my problem right now. But i still have some time so hopefully someone will suggest something in full.
    thanks
    I would be more than happy to assist you on your request if you will get some bloodwork done LEX. I cannot really assess your HPTA until I see where certian levels are at LEX. Sure, one could guess but that is not how I play this game. I need to have the following info in order to help you out.

    Testosterone , LH & Estradiol
    Testosterone, Total: 260 - 1000 ng/dL
    Testosterone, Free: 50 - 210 pg/mL
    Testosterone, Free %: 1.0 - 2.7%
    Estradiol: < 32 pg/mL
    LH: 1.5 - 9.3 mIU/mL

  27. #27
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    I have decided what ill do hopefully it will work out i will extend the course for another 6 weeks of sus/propionate . i already started nolvadex and ill use it till the end of PCT. my last shot of sus will be 3 weeks before the end and in those last 3 weeks ill use HCG 500 iu monday and thursday, proviron 25 mg a day plus ill cut my 1 mg arimidex tabs in to 4 so i get .25s and use that as well till the end of my HCG shots. This should completely get rid of estrogen by the time my PCT starts . After the last shot of HCG ill stop proviron and 3 days later stop arimidex as well. This is where i begin with Clomid first day 300mg then 3 weeks of 100 mg and 2 weeks of 50 mg (using nolvadex all this time). I also intend toi start clenbuterol , animal stack 2 from universal (with longjack extract + tribulus) the day i start my PCT. Shorten my work outs to 45 minutes 5 days a week, train one body part a day with compound movements such as squats, deadlifts, bench press, barbell curls etc.Ill probibly only do Squats for upper legs since they are supposed to increase test levels naturally apparently. Ill cut down on my carb intake but ill keep protein very high drink lots of cofee for cafein vs cortisol effects. 3 weeks after the PCT ill do bloodwork and see how im doing. How does that sound?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Lex
    I have decided what ill do hopefully it will work out i will extend the course for another 6 weeks of sus/propionate. i already started nolvadex and ill use it till the end of PCT. my last shot of sus will be 3 weeks before the end and in those last 3 weeks ill use HCG 500 iu monday and thursday, proviron 25 mg a day plus ill cut my 1 mg arimidex tabs in to 4 so i get .25s and use that as well till the end of my HCG shots. This should completely get rid of estrogen by the time my PCT starts . After the last shot of HCG ill stop proviron and 3 days later stop arimidex as well. This is where i begin with Clomid first day 300mg then 3 weeks of 100 mg and 2 weeks of 50 mg (using nolvadex all this time). I also intend toi start clenbuterol, animal stack 2 from universal (with longjack extract + tribulus) the day i start my PCT. Shorten my work outs to 45 minutes 5 days a week, train one body part a day with compound movements such as squats, deadlifts, bench press, barbell curls etc.Ill probibly only do Squats for upper legs since they are supposed to increase test levels naturally apparently. Ill cut down on my carb intake but ill keep protein very high drink lots of cofee for cafein vs cortisol effects. 3 weeks after the PCT ill do bloodwork and see how im doing. How does that sound?
    Good luck partner. I do not know about that caffeine cutting down on cortisol. That sounds like wishful thinking to me. I would research that avenue with more authority.
    Last edited by scorp; 01-11-2005 at 03:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Lex
    IGF? how do you run IGF? you mean shoot HGH during PCT to increase IGF ? the best i can do is 1 IU a day of humatrope during PCT (my doctor advises me not to go higher since my insulin sensitivity is not great, dont want diabetes type II). still though im sure there are some guys here who have gone on courses for more than 6 months. some of their opinions on PCT would be great. also my question on arimidex and proviron still stands.
    I am 2 and a half months off of a 9 month test and eq cycle... on my last test shot I started HCG and took about 1000 iu's every 3rd day till I used up 10000 iu's, after the HCG my sack was starting to fill up and hang a bit, on the last day of HCG I started clomid at 100 for ten days, and 50 for two weeks. I also was using .25 arimedex and 20mg nolvadex throughout the entire cycle. I have been off all anti E's for about a week and am just now starting to feel the natural morning wood phenominon.

  30. #30
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    Here's what I know about HCG , if it's any use, though I've never done anything longer than 12 weeks myself. Large doses, like over 500iu, can cause a test spike which can in turn cause an estrogen spike, so using Proviron and Arimidex , like you plan, should help prevent estro. From what I've read (Llewelyn has a good long article about it up on the web, if I recall correctly) over 500iu is what can cause gyno if not careful from the estro spike. Personally if I'm not up to size at the end of a cycle I do 500iu/day til I'm back to full size, then wait a couple days for the HCG to clear (I believe it has a relatively short halflife -18 hours or so) then start the Clomid.
    I'd say keep researching HCG and PCT. I know I've seen threads here about coming off long cycles so do a search if you haven't already.
    You should post pix too, you must be huge by now!
    Good luck.

  31. #31
    Big_Lex is offline Associate Member
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    yep looking pretty **** big right now i will get some pics done at the end of this cycle post them and then post after the PCT.As for HCG i found way to much info that contradicts one another some say HCG low dose during cycle some say post cycle. Thats why im extending the course really so ican use HCG during the cycle. Got a 3 bottles of BioTest RED KAT and TRIBEX some ZMA capsules lots of vit B Complex and B12 ampules so i intent to use all of that in the PCT. The hair part is what worries me right now so ill start some propecia and if that doesnt make it better ill get some proscar although it always grows back after i stop juicing. But since ive been on so long id rather not risk it. we'll see and ill keep on posting my result here during the start of the PCT.
    thanks

  32. #32
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    Here's what convinced me to go during cycle -that and the fact my nads were killing me just a week or two in. This is by Swale, who's a pretty well respected and often quoted doc who specializes in the BB community...

    Hcg usage - 250iu ED throughout cycle? check it out

    "I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

    Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid -induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

    If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

    The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex , is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

    I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel , or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ?bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can?t ?fool? the body?it is smarter than you are.

    I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

    All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

    Thought this would shed a little light on all the HCG questions during cycle."

  33. #33
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    Nice post. I am very pro-HCG during the cycle. I do it a little different but it has been effective for me nonetheless. Catching up is hard to do when it comes to a battred HPTA. However, it can be done. Not without a price in the gains lost department.

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