prohormone cycle - feedback request!

[triangulo]

hi there

I am 39 years old, have been training brazilian jiu jitsu for almost 6 years now and am getting ready for my third prohormone cycle. i am interested in increasing my strength and some muscles, but don't want to gain too much weight since I want to stay in the same weight class.

I train 2-3 times jiu jitsu per week and go running on the crosstrainer for an hour once a week. I don't really work out in the gym, however, I have a machine for working the back (back roman hyper by hoist), and a flat/incline/decline bench with weights that I try to use daily for about 30min. I also have mats layed out in my flat and some other handy training equipment to do practical exercises.

my stats
height: 5'10" (1.78m)
weight: 163.8lbs (74.3kg)
BMI: 23.4
fat: 26.01lbs (11.8kg)

I have have done two cycles this year so far:

1st cycle

march 12th-april 8th ON:

ultradrol by antaeus labs (2mg Methylstenbolone (2a,17a-dimethyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstan-1-ene-3-one)): 3 capsules/d, in the morning
trenazone by antaeus labs (hydroxyestradienone ('dienolone')): 1ml/d in the morning

in addition:

cycle assist by competitive edge labs: 3 capsuless/d in the morning
N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine - 750 mg
Milk Thistle (Standardized to 80% Silymarin) - 500 mg
Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B-5) - 500 mg 5000%
Hawthorn Berry Extract (Standardized to 1.8% Vitexin) - 300 mg
Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCL) - 50mg 2500 %
Saw Palmetto Extract (Standardized to 45% Fatty Acids) - 160 mg
Celery Seed Extract (10:1) - 75 mg
Grape Seed Extract (95% Proanthocyanidins) - 75 mg
Policosanol - 20 mg
Zinc Gluconate - 15 mg 100%
Magnesium Stearate

april 9th-may 6th OFF:

recycle by purus labs: 3 capsules/d in the morning
Tribulus Alatus --------------- 500mg
Macuna Pruriens --------------- 400mg
Basella Alba ------------------ 400mg
Icariin ----------------------- 250mg
3,4-Divanillytetrahydrofuran -- 200mg
Bladderwrack ------------------ 350mg
White Button Mushroom --------- 300mg
Resveratrol ------------------- 250mg
Indole-3-Carbinol ------------- 100mg
Quercetin --------------------- 60mg
Piperine ---------------------- 50mg

drive by applied nutriceuticals: 4 capsules/d in the morning
A4E2 ATP Synthase(TM)
410.00 mg
Cordyceps (7% Cordyceptic Acid)
Dodder Seed Extract (20:1 Cuscutta Chineses)
Naringin (98% Extract)
StAR 35 Anaplex(TM)
90.00 mg
Epimedium Extract (40% Icarlin)
Forslean® (20%)

cycle assist by competitive edge labs: 3 capsules/d in the morning

tamoxifene citrate (20mg/ml): 1ml/d in the morning


2nd cycle

june 11th-july 8th ON:

trenavol-v by chapparal labs (Estra-4,9 diene-3,17 dione - 30 mg): 3 capsules/d in the morning
pro-epi by dragon nutrition (10mg-2a, 3a-Epithio-17a-Methyl- 5a-Androstan-17b-Ol): 3 capsules/d in the morning

in addition:
protect by iron labs: 3 capsuless/d in the morning
Milk Thistle (Standardized to 80% Silymarin) - 500 mg
N-Acetyl-L-Cystenine (NAC) - 400mg
Hawthorn Berry Extract (Standardized to 1.8% Vitexin) - 400 mg
Saw Palmetto Extract (Standardized to 45% Fatty Acids) - 200 mg
Celery Seed Extract - 75 mg
Grape Seed Extract - 75 mg

july 9th-august 5th OFF:

protect by iron labs: 3 capsules/d in the morning

drive by applied nutriceuticals: 4 capsules/d in the morning

recycle by purus labs: 3 capsules/d in the morning

tamoxifene citrate (20mg/ml): 1ml/d in the morning


I have to admit that I never felt any adverse effects, no acne, no liver pain whatsoever during these first two cycles. I gained muscles nicely - moreso during the first cycle (ca. 8kg), during the second cycle a little bit less (ca. 5kg) - and was able to keep quite some gains after cycle stop. I did not do any special dietting and did the same training regimen as mentioned above.

I have gotten a blood sample a week ago which looks as follows:
TG: 1.48mmol/l
Chol: 5.15 mmol/l
BIL: 17.2 ymol/l
CREA: 79.9 ymol/l
GOT: 21.9 U/l
GPT: 19.3 U/l
GGT: 14.4 U/l


my plans for my 3rd cycle are as follows:

november 19th- december 16th ON:

pro-epi: 2 capsules/d, 1x in the morning, 1x in the afternoon
pro-tren : 2 capsules/d, 1x in the morning, 1x in the afternoon

cycle assist by competitive edge labs: 4 capsules/d, 2x in the morning, 2x in the afternoon

december 17th-january 13th OFF:

p.c.t. assist by competitive edge labs: 4 capsules/d, 2x in the morning, 2x in the afternoon
Trans Resveratrol (50%) - 500 mg
Indole 3 Carbinol - 175 mg
Horny Goat Weed (standardized fro 40% Icariin) - 250 mg
Mucuna Pruriens SE (Precision Blended 95% & 20% Extracts) - 250 mg
Piperine (95%) - 20 mg

cycle assist by competitive edge labs: 4 capsules/d, 2x in the morning, 2x in the afternoon

tamoxifene citrate (20mg/ml): 1ml/d in the morning


I would greatly appreciate if you could give me some feedback especially on the following points:

- would you add anything or leave out something ON/OFF (also in the previous two cycles)?
- shall I add clomiphene during PCT or is tamoxifene sufficient?
- is it crucial to divide the daily dosage of the several products into two dosages per day or can I take it all in the morning (better for compliance)? if two dosages per day is better, when would be best to take them timewise?
- how long would you wait in the future in between two cycles?
- is there any rule of thumb how many cycles you can do during a year?
- what is really crucial to take during PCT? are natural hormone boosters (i.e. drive by applied nutriceuticals, recycle by purus labs) necessary, if you already take tamoxifene citrate and/or clomiphene?
- is it important to start with an on-cycle support (like i.e. cycle assist by competitive edge) already before starting your cycle? if so, how long before? in such a case would you take the full dosage from the beginning or do a dosage escalation until cycle start?
- when exactly is the best time to do a blood sample? what parameters should such a sample contain?

a lot of questions, I know ;-), i still hope you will take your time and help me learn from your experience! thanx a lot for your help, I really appreciate it!

[Lunk1]

While some may disagree my opinion is that you should throw all of that shyt in the garbage. I havn't seen a good prohormone in over 5 years. I used to use alot of them myself but even the ones that contained a steroidal product were so low dosed that it would take 5X the required dose to have any real effect. This was a great strain on the liver and kidneys, not to mention the starin on the wallet.

Just not worth it imo.

[Honkey_Kong]

You've done two cycles this year and you're still 163lbs? Doesn't that tell you something is wrong? You don't need steroids or prohormones, you need to eat and you need to learn how to workout. You say you kept your gains, how much did you weigh when you started running these cycles?

[triangulo]

thanx for your input guys. i have to admit i don't know anything about proper eating and training. i used to only train jiu jitsu and have started to look for ways to complement my training. obviously i need to do some research before i do another cycle and learn about nutrition and training regimens, since i want to spend my money wisely.

what sources can you recommend? are there any good websites with well written articles on these topics? any good threads in forums? do you know of any books you can recommend?

i know i could just read through this forum, but i feel like when you don't know anything yet, forums can be more confusing, because in one thread you have somebody saying this, in another thread that. especially in this areas. just look at all the different diets there are. i think forums are a great way to learn - when you already know something.

looking forward to learn!

p.s. i weighed 70kg before i started my first cycle.

[songdog]

Bro before you do anything else hit the diet section.LEARN how to eat and spend the next few months doing this and building a base.Then if you want to hit the juice.

[Honkey_Kong]

thanx for your input guys. i have to admit i don't know anything about proper eating and training. i used to only train jiu jitsu and have started to look for ways to complement my training. obviously i need to do some research before i do another cycle and learn about nutrition and training regimens, since i want to spend my money wisely.

what sources can you recommend? are there any good websites with well written articles on these topics? any good threads in forums? do you know of any books you can recommend?

i know i could just read through this forum, but i feel like when you don't know anything yet, forums can be more confusing, because in one thread you have somebody saying this, in another thread that. especially in this areas. just look at all the different diets there are. i think forums are a great way to learn - when you already know something.

looking forward to learn!

p.s. i weighed 70kg before i started my first cycle.

I recommend you hit up the diet section AND NOT RUN ANY MORE CYCLES. At least not for a long time. What you should do is tomorrow write down from the minute you wake up to the second you go to bed, everything you eat for the day, when you eat it, what the portions are of what you eat and what the calories, carbs, sugars, proteins and fats are of each item. Then post this in the diet section here and then people will give you solid advice on what you're doing wrong in the kitchen. As far as training goes, you can post your exact training regimen for the last week in here and we can help you with that too.

What exactly are your goals from training? It's important to write out your long term goal and then divide it among achievable short term goals. Otherwise it's really difficult to get results when you don't have and idea of what you want and what you have to do.

[triangulo]

I recommend you hit up the diet section AND NOT RUN ANY MORE CYCLES. At least not for a long time. What you should do is tomorrow write down from the minute you wake up to the second you go to bed, everything you eat for the day, when you eat it, what the portions are of what you eat and what the calories, carbs, sugars, proteins and fats are of each item. Then post this in the diet section here and then people will give you solid advice on what you're doing wrong in the kitchen. As far as training goes, you can post your exact training regimen for the last week in here and we can help you with that too.

What exactly are your goals from training? It's important to write out your long term goal and then divide it among achievable short term goals. Otherwise it's really difficult to get results when you don't have and idea of what you want and what you have to do.

hi again! thanx for your input. i found someone who offered to help me design a diet and a proper training regimen. i sent him all my info and am waiting now for his reply. i will keep you posted. no worries, i realize i need to learn about eating and training first before even considering doing another prohormone cycle.

however, i still have a couple of questions i would like to ask you about what you proposed:
- how do i count calories, carbs, sugars, proteins and fats in daily life? i mean, i know that you can find all this info on the packages, but how do you actually break them down for example if you ate just 2 cookies of a whole package? what if the cookies are self-made and there is no package to see the ingredients and calories? what if you eat a bowl of cereals out of a cereal box? do you weigh the cereals before you eat them? what if you make your own muesli out of fresh ingredients without all of that info? maybe those questions may sound really stupid to somebody who is used to count calories etc., but all of this is really new to me and i don't even know where to start...
- can you recommend any literature on this for me to read?

[warmouth]

Seriously. Why prohormones? They are not healthy, and I would even say they are way worst for you than a real cycle of AAS. I would get BW done to check lipids and liver enzymes AT LEAST! So not worth it, especially if you have means to healthier alternatives.

[triangulo]

Seriously. Why prohormones? They are not healthy, and I would even say they are way worst for you than a real cycle of AAS. I would get BW done to check lipids and liver enzymes AT LEAST! So not worth it, especially if you have means to healthier alternatives.

that's what i am starting to figure out myself since starting this thread...:-)

after all, got my BW done 2 weeks ago (see above) and they seem to be ok. cholesterol appears to be slightly above cut-off, but apart from that i seem to have been lucky.

[mtb1981]

While some may disagree my opinion is that you should throw all of that shyt in the garbage. I havn't seen a good prohormone in over 5 years. I used to use alot of them myself but even the ones that contained a steroidal product were so low dosed that it would take 5X the required dose to have any real effect. This was a great strain on the liver and kidneys, not to mention the starin on the wallet.

Just not worth it imo.

Seriously. Why prohormones? They are not healthy, and I would even say they are way worst for you than a real cycle of AAS. I would get BW done to check lipids and liver enzymes AT LEAST! So not worth it, especially if you have means to healthier alternatives.

Both are potent and active steroids , not prohormones.

Edit - misread the OP. The first cycle is the one I was referring to that are steroids not prohormones.

[triangulo]

Both are potent and active steroids, not prohormones.

prohormones are inactive precursors of actual hormones. they need to be activated by enzymes in the liver. because of that steroidal prohormones are thought to be more harmful than injected hormones, because those are already active and don't lead to as much stress in the liver.

both - prohormones and actual hormones - can also be harmful because they have the potential to dysregulate the well regulated equilibrium of the hormones in your body that are controlled via endogenous feedback loops...

[mtb1981]

The goals of bjj'er are vastly different than a bodybuilder. Run some low dose of test and some hgh or peptides, for 10-15 weeks. Train hard, recover faster, and train more frequently.

I also train bjj and I ran 250mg test and 400 eq for 15 weeks, and it was terrific. I had only 1 strength workout a week, along with about 3 circuit workouts, but trained bjj 6-8 times a week. The on the mat gains I made were incredible.

[Honkey_Kong]

hi again! thanx for your input. i found someone who offered to help me design a diet and a proper training regimen. i sent him all my info and am waiting now for his reply. i will keep you posted. no worries, i realize i need to learn about eating and training first before even considering doing another prohormone cycle.

however, i still have a couple of questions i would like to ask you about what you proposed:
- how do i count calories, carbs, sugars, proteins and fats in daily life? i mean, i know that you can find all this info on the packages, but how do you actually break them down for example if you ate just 2 cookies of a whole package? what if the cookies are self-made and there is no package to see the ingredients and calories? what if you eat a bowl of cereals out of a cereal box? do you weigh the cereals before you eat them? what if you make your own muesli out of fresh ingredients without all of that info? maybe those questions may sound really stupid to somebody who is used to count calories etc., but all of this is really new to me and i don't even know where to start...
- can you recommend any literature on this for me to read?

Well if you made the cookies yourself, you know how much of each ingredient you used. You can google that stuff out and from there use a little algebra to figure out how much is in the portion size you ate (there's finally a use for it). But like if a package says there is 400 calories per serving and 3 servings to a box. you can assume there's 1200 calories in the entire box. Then you can divide that by the portion size you ate and that's how many calories you consumed from that item.

If you're good at estimating, you don't really have to weigh everything. But it also wouldn't hurt you to invest in a dietary scale.

[anahny]

Both are potent and active steroids , not prohormones.

Edit - misread the OP. The first cycle is the one I was referring to that are steroids not prohormones.

Agreed. Both are steroids once in the body. Main reason why they are both banned. Second cycle was a mild prohormones. But first was aas

[triangulo]

Agreed. Both are steroids once in the body. Main reason why they are both banned. Second cycle was a mild prohormones. But first was aas

what do you mean?! ultradrol and trenazone are both steroids ? i didn't even realize...i thought they were both prohormones...

ultradrol is not available any more, but trenazone can still be easily purchased on amazon etc.

how can you hold steroids and prohormones apart? is there any way to do so by the chemical structure?

[Buster Brown]

what do you mean?! ultradrol and trenazone are both steroids ? i didn't even realize...i thought they were both prohormones...

ultradrol is not available any more, but trenazone can still be easily purchased on amazon etc.

how can you hold steroids and prohormones apart? is there any way to do so by the chemical structure?

They are not considered steroids because at the time of the ban, these products weren't being used. Now there are alot of "prohormones" floating around (DMZ etc.) that were pre-cursors to steroids (created but not marketed years ago) and are inactive on the shelf but need to be ingested to become an active compound. I would think that they would adversly affect your endurance doing your martial arts.

[Abmaster]

And there is safe prohormones
1-andro works great zero liver toxity or epistane considered the safest one zero estrogen zero liver toxity quality hard dry lean gains
They make prohormones that can go under ur tongue zero liver toxity. I don't quiet get that I mean ur liver filters ur blood and there going b in ur blood stream but some how still non liver toxic for ability absorb through ur tongue
My personal experience is they absorb quicker buy aren't as effective
Jw any any suggestions what stacks well with super drol ppl ????
How do u get a profile pic up to ???

[Abmaster]

Ultra drol is a avaible lmao. strongsupplmentshop.com it's a replacement for SuperDrol since they band that in augest
I think ultradrol is like zero estrogen and still great for bulking not sure on that don't quote me on it haha

[Abmaster]

And you ppl have to realize some of this stuff gets band cause the FDA dea know there's dumb ppl out there will abuse and misuse this cause harm to themselves
And cause of big pharma companies to like the original 1-AD by eurgopharms was like $30 bucks ? Now u have go to a doctor get prescribe for like $100 ???
It comes down to money why some of this stuff gets band

[anahny]

'dienolone is what trenbalone converts too once inside the body. The compound wasn't banned in the previous bans because that compound wasn't exactly in people's minds. So you're *trenazone " is in fact a steroid and a strong one at that. Now keep in mind it's not as strong as tren ace or e but close enough. Without proper pct and cycle assist you can mess yourself up. They called it a prohormones because prohormones are legal and that compound wasn't banned. But it's banned now so if you still see it on Amazon chances are who's selling it doesn't know it's been banned. If I'm wrong about 'dienolone someone please correct me.

[Abmaster]

You can get introuble for that ??! Selling band stuff on amazon ??
I thought only the manufactures got introuble of they kept making it.
But what's left over the shelves u can sell till its gone ?? @annahny

[anahny]

You can get introuble for that ??! Selling band stuff on amazon ??
I thought only the manufactures got introuble of they kept making it.
But what's left over the shelves u can sell till its gone ?? @annahny

If it's banned its illegal. Bottom line if you get the caught using it, selling it, buying it your screwed.

[triangulo]

can somebody tell me how you know whether you have a prohormone or an aas in front of you? what are the cues you have to look for?