Why not low dose clomiphene instead of HCG on TRT?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vetteman08

Ren, if you're saying that HCG mono-therapy failed, then I have no idea how you think Clomid will do the job. If the testicles didn't respond to exogenous LH analogue administered from HCG, then they're not going to be receptive to any LH that 'might' get naturally produced from the HPTA.

I know G2F addresses this, but what were your test labs with the HCG Mono? If it was moderately or majorly low, then that might indicate your diagnosis as being primary, so those dogs won't be hunting no matter how you try to feed them.

This is an interesting thread, but quite puzzling just the same ...

---

HCG may or may not have failed, it`s hard to say and I may have jumped on exogenous testosterone too early, but I`m trying to pull my life together the best I can on my own without a doctor who knows what he`s doing. Read my prior post on why I abandoned HCG mono.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...14#post6010014

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by oscarjones

What exactly are we discussing here? The use of Clomid vs hCG monotherapy? Or, the use of Clomid vs hCG while on exogenous Test? If you believe a monotherapy type approach will work for you, then so be it, however I'd REALLY love to see the labs on your hormones after dosing Clomid for 25mg everyday. I am a huge advocate of Test being utilized along with proper ancillaries for a replacement protocol, and I think a lot of guys miss the important factors of having ALL hormones in a proper range, and not just free and total test.

Also, who said Clomiphene wasn't FDA approved? That's ludicrous it's been on the market since 1999, and is manufactured by PAR pharmaceuticals, which is in Spring Valley, NY.

In addition, yes the drug can be considered as "hepatotoxic" as it's a contradicted therapy for those with a history of liver disease or dysfunction.... Yes... it's Hepato-toxic...

Edit: Yes, just confirmed that some cases of clomiphene citrate treatment have resulted in all sorts of neoplasms and elevated transaminases in relation to hepatitis. Where do you come up with it NOT being hepatotoxic is what I want to know, along with the rest of your theories about the drug?

---

What I intended on discussing was the use of clomiphene VS HCG while on exogenous testosterone.

If I understand correctly, clomiphene is FDA approved for women, but not for use with males and for treating hypogonadism.

Where did you find that it is actually hepatoxic? I`ve only read similar studies that MrManGuy84 linked to and toxicity is not mentioned, I believe.

I have my BW while using clomiphene also.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renholder

Why do you assume I do not have labs? Do you think I`m that stupid? I`ve posted my blood work in a thread I made earlier, but I did not get much comments on it post HCG.

HCG was not successful since I felt like SHIT after using it for two weeks, although to my major surprise blood work showed a substantial increase in both total and free testosterone. E2 was slightly elevated as well (I don`t have access to a sensitive test here in Norway), so that MAY have explained why I did not feel better on it.

The reasons I started with exogenous testosterone treatment are several: 1) I`ve read about people who have great BW on HCG, but still feel the same. Even Crisler has mentioned this phenomenon; 2) I was desperate to get better and after spending three years of my life feeling like shit, I just don`t have the patience to fool around any longer; 3) I do not have a knowledgeable doctor to help me and he was not interested in prescribing an AI. He did not even know what HCG was before I mentioned it.; 4) I will always have the opportunity to get back on HCG mono at a later date, maybe with a better doctor. For now, my priority is to function normally and get my life back.

---

We're not hunting for your bloodwork, so put it in here if you want an analysis by anyone who can help you. Elevated estrogen, if that was indicated will definitely make you feel like shit. Before stopping you should have added an AI on the day of inj. You cant classify yourself as one of those people with great bloodwork who still feels bad because you didnt have great bloodwork. What im trying to say is you pulled out before you came but then you dIdnt even ccomee--wtf oVer?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by go2failure

We're not hunting for your bloodwork, so put it in here if you want an analysis by anyone who can help you.

---

No need to hunt for my blood work when I have posted it multiple times and updated my thread several times with questions without getting any new answers.

However, this thread was not about my personal situation, but a discussion on clomiphene VS HCG as an adjunct to TRT.

Not seeing any good reason or arguments against trying it, I will continue with my experiment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renholder

No need to hunt for my blood work when I have posted it multiple times and updated my thread several times with questions without getting any new answers.

However, this thread was not about my personal situation, but a discussion on clomiphene VS HCG as an adjunct to TRT.

Not seeing any good reason or arguments against trying it, I will continue with my experiment.

---

Once again, we 're not hunting--put it in the thread if you're serious. Good luck with your experiment, remember to bring your bloodwork.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by go2failure

Once again, we 're not hunting--put it in the thread if you're serious. Good luck with your experiment, remember to bring your bloodwork.

---

I already posted my thread which contain the bloodwork at post #41.

Thanks. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renholder

I already posted my thread which contain the bloodwork at post #41.

Thanks. :)

---

The results were somewhat difficult to read, but it appears your estrogen spiked--I still say go back on it with a AI used on shot days.

I myself may be getting weaned off of T here soon. I'm going to follow an T + AI usage, followed by lower T dose + HCG + AI, then HCG + AI or clomid + AI, then possibly just AI. That's if I even feel good without a 700+ range level. I'm not sure I'll hit 700+ TT with HCG + AI... I hit that with 200mg/week. TT isnt the key, but it gives an idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by go2failure

The results were somewhat difficult to read, but it appears your estrogen spiked--I still say go back on it with a AI used on shot days.

I myself may be getting weaned off of T here soon. I'm going to follow an T + AI usage, followed by lower T dose + HCG + AI, then HCG + AI or clomid + AI, then possibly just AI. That's if I even feel good without a 700+ range level. I'm not sure I'll hit 700+ TT with HCG + AI... I hit that with 200mg/week. TT isnt the key, but it gives an idea.

---

One of my problems is that I do not have access to a sensitive E2 test here in Norway, so I`m not sure if it is a precise measurement. E2 did fall back into the normal range on my last BW though. I will continue using Nebido for a while and then consider going off exogenous testosterone further down the road under better circumstances and ideally with a doctor who knows more than I do.

Why are you going off T? Are you secondary? And did I just read you saying you may use clomiphene?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renholder

One of my problems is that I do not have access to a sensitive E2 test here in Norway, so I`m not sure if it is a precise measurement. E2 did fall back into the normal range on my last BW though. I will continue using Nebido for a while and then consider going off exogenous testosterone further down the road under better circumstances and ideally with a doctor who knows more than I do.

Why are you going off T? Are you secondary? And did I just read you saying you may use clomiphene?

---

Based on my low fsh/lh when i first began, the new dr wants to try lh/fsh stim as a potential treatment. Basically, slowly weaning me off my T with estrogen control then leaving me on HCG or clomid with an AI for a short period of time. Then maybe seeing if i can feel ok on just an AI. We havent seen my estrogen yet, but he believes it may be supraphysiological estrogen levels im dealing with right now and potentially an estrogen problem at the beginning driving my T and production down. However, overall he wants me to feel good so i it doesn't work out as planned we'll go back to more treatment with test, ai's and hcg. But he wants to at least try the former since it should have been tried in the beginning. But too much time may have passed and too much damage may have been done *shrug*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by go2failure

But he wants to at least try the former since it should have been tried in the beginning. But too much time may have passed and too much damage may have been done *shrug*

---

What damage? Should be reversible, no?

As for my little experiment, I`ve been having a few rough days lately.

I started last monday with 25 mg clomiphene Monday night. Felt pretty decent at the start of the week (after being off HCG for a while), but then not so good later in the week. Libido was through the roof both on Friday and Saturday.

Sunday, the day after drinking alcohol, was a fairly good day like it typically is. I don`t know what the short-term effects of alcohol are on the hormonal profile, but something seems to fall in place the day after.

Monday (yesterday), I felt like SHIT. Very tired in the morning and had to drag myself out of bed after more than 8 hours of continued sleep. Fatigue in my body, slight body aches and a feeling of being TIRED, although there is no reason I should be tired, with the last prior days simply resting. Mentally, a feeling of brainfog and being inarticulate. Noticed that this state let go a little on Monday night.

Took 12,5 mg Monday night, which is the new dose I planned on using.

Now, the problem is that I`ve felt like this before and on HCG as well, so it is very hard for me to tell if it`s random or not. I have a friend who`s been strictly on Nebido for a few years now and he`s also trying this, but I have not heard from him lately.

Feeling BETTER today, but defintely not very well. :(