What the **** is Lion stocking?
Andarine (S-4) or Ostarine (S-1)?
There is another claimed source of SARMs on the net. What the **** is he stocking?
What the **** is Lion stocking?
Andarine (S-4) or Ostarine (S-1)?
There is another claimed source of SARMs on the net. What the **** is he stocking?
This artiicle confirms that S-4 is not Ostarine...Quote:
Originally Posted by Swifto
http://www.medpagetoday.com/endocrin...steroids/17107
But the question still stands what is s-4? Is it andarine?Quote:
S-4 is a nonsteroidal, arylpropionamide compound that activates certain androgen receptors, while having no effects or acting as an antagonist at others. GTx conducted a Phase I trial of S-4 about five years ago, but later dropped the compound in favor of a second-generation agent with the trade name Ostarine, which has completed Phase II trials in cancer cachexia and chronic sarcopenia.
:hello: me tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Swifto
I emailed lion this :Quote:
Originally Posted by Swifto
I have a question regarding your SARM S-4. I see that your lab test states that S-4 is Ostarine but I know someone that contacted the American Chemical Society.He replied to me :
" I'm quite confident of this now. I contacted the American Chemical Society about this, as their database listed S-4 as being Ostarine.
They American Chemical Society replied:
"I am happy to report that the CAS record of interest has been corrected.
For your convenience, please find the attachment of the CAS record containing the corrected chemical name. Thank you for informing us of the error. Please accept our apology for any and all inconvenience."
They now list S-4 as Andarine.
If you look at the patent here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20070161608.pdf
Page 87 shows a compound called "N-4" which matches with the structure of Ostarine, and at the bottom of the first column, refers to this structure as "formula III". The next column describes how this formula III increased muscle mass and decreased fat mass in seniors at 3mg/day. I'm very willing to say that this structure is MK-2866, Ostarine, etc. while S-4 is Andarine
Is your SARM Ostarine or Andarine??
They replied:
It's ostarine and we have a coa on it...99% pure
Also if you look on lions site the lab test says its ostarine
http://www.ar-r.com/catalog/product/.../90/image/225/
False advertising... outright lies I think...
So Lion stocks S-1, NOT S-4.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam15425
S-4 = Andarine
S-1 = Ostarine
Correct?
The terms are so mixed up it's frustrating! I wish someone could clear this up BUT Lion did say that it's ostarine, so take that as you will .......
Here is what I have found:
Andarine S-1
(2S)-3-(4-Fluoro-phenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro-3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-propionamide
Ostarine S-4
(S)-3-(4-acetylamino-phenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro-3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-propionamide
Most are selling this (S)-3-(4-acetylamino-phenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro-3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-propionamide compound which is regarded as an "Ideal SARM"
"The pharmacological activity and pharmacokinetics of S-4 in rats suggest that this compound has the properties of an ideal SARM as defined by Negro-Vilar (1999). It is rapidly absorbed following p.o. doses (tmax, 48−84 min), and it exerts tissue-specific anabolic effects in vivo, with anabolic effects in muscle and bone but lesser effects in the prostate and seminal vesicles (Kearbey et al. 2003, Yin et al. 2003)."
Any one that has some info chime in...
No one can sell Ostarine other than GTx and I believe they are not selling. So if its says Ostarine, then they are either getting it from GTx or selling something else.
All other so call "S4" seem to be - Acetamidoxolutamide?, which is from another source. There's lots of evasion of information from several quarters.
S-4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Swifto
S-4 = Acetamidoxolutamide = Andarine = GTx-007 = (S)-3-(4-acetylamino-phenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro-3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-propionamide
S-1:
S-1 is also NOT Ostarine.
S-1 = S-3-(4-fluorophenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro-3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-propionamide
Basically there is Fluorine in place of the NHAcetyl group on the S-4 molecule.
Ostarine:
Ostarine is NOT S-1 or S-4
Ostarine is not characterized by an S-X name. Ostarine = MK-2866
The Ostarine molecule has a CN group in place of the NO2 group and the NHAcetyl group on S-4 (Andarine).
True Ostarine is NOT currently being sold by anyone at this point as far as I know. What the research companies are selling is S-4 (Acetamidoxolutamide or Andarine). S-4 was developed by GTx and used in phase 1 clinical trials before Ostarin. GTx did not move any further with S-4 but decided to move forward with Ostarine and went into phase II trials.
Also, the dosage is proof that what is being sold is S-4 not Ostarine. S-4 (Andarine) was being tested at 1-3mg/kg of body weight per day which is what most people who have used S-4 have needed to take in order to see gains. However, Ostarine in the phase II trail was only used at 1 or 2 mg per day (for a human, not an animal) and results were seen.
For some reason some research companies are selling S-4 and saying it is the same as Ostarine. This is NOT TRUE, S-4 is NOT Ostarine, they are selling Andarine (Acetamidoxolutamide), they even show you a picture of the molecule or write the chemical formula which correspond to Andarine NOT Ostarine.
^ Nice first post there buddy ...
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam15425
I just wanted to pitch in, I've been interested in SARMs since I first heard about it a month ago and have been following the discussions and logs here on steroids.com and would like to point out something about the lab Lion is using to test their product. It seems AACL has not had a very good past and there are articles of repeated problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam15425
http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/Enforcement.../ucm147299.htm
chucklesmcgee and liv2grow seems to have brought this to a conclusion, props to both of you.
Thanks for that link - though it was dated on 2/2003.
I used to work for one of the larger medical laboratory (Q D) and largest lab company get those letters or even worse all the time for not having standard procedure/compliance - so it really means nothing.
Nice first post though!?
Yeah i agree. I started out taking 100mgs of S4 and the first day i had some mild vision sideeffects. But i was also taking 200mgs of clem too.Quote:
Originally Posted by elpropiotorvic
sorry it took so long to respond but i dont come here that often.
Anyways I had the exact same reaction. My ears blue up, My face was all red and scaley. It started on my arms and traveled up my body to my face both ears and then down to my chest. Took me a week to relise it was the s4 doing it. Went to the doctor and he said I had staff infection in my ear (probably from the insane itch and of course i was itching it.) And i was allergic to something. Gave me a shot for the staff, antibiotics, a cortizone shot and some kind of steroid. Took 2 or 3 weeks to go away and like endus said i had dead scaly skin all over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by endus
Thanks - I'm still trying to figure it out. My doc gave me Prednisone and anti-histamine. I didn't have any other issues - just my face blew up and was super itchy. Took about 2 weeks to go away.Quote:
Originally Posted by poundcake
I have since re-taken S4 (am on it right now at very low dosage) and best I could guess-timate is that I was over-dosing. It could be possible that when I went up to 100-120mg per day, it became toxic and I had a reaction to that.
Forgot - if anyone is experiencing this, make sure you go to your doc ASAP or to emergency room. The swelling could interfere with your breathing or even block breathing passage. I was lucky.
so, you had anaphylaxis from this shit so bad you ended up in the ER
but you're still taking it
despite the fact there is no human data
I can't imagine why anyone would want to take this stuff.
What's the attraction, why don't you stop?
I think it's clear juice would be safer.
No it did not put me in ER - I didn't know what was happening and since, for me, it didn't affect anything critical, I waited for 1 week, then I went to my doc.
And at this point, I do not know what actually caused it. It could be lots of thing - including red dye #40, which I was consuming tons of (crystal lite). I've stopped all of that and it stop - so I'm still trying to figure it out.
Attraction? Like any other supplements (AAS or PH), people take things for variety of reason even though it could make them sterile or lose hair/grow boob. This just happens to not have enough "bro" trials like Test E or other AAS.
In the end, I did get some benefits out of it - including about 30lb increase in dumbell press, 200lb in leg press, and 50lb in shoulder press - all clean movements. And it helped me with my libido. At 44yrs old, I'm getting wood in the morning - everyday. It might not mean much to 20yr old, but for me, its nice. I consider viagra more dangerous at this point and that's legal.
Who know - I'm the one that actually told Ar-r to come clean. Each individual should make their own decision base on variety of logs/experience. If you look at my log - you see the high/low and doubt expressed. Helps the community.
After saying all that - I'm almost done with S4. I'll dump what I have and wait couple of month to do a mild cycle.
Edit - by the way, I'm really scared of AAS at my age for one reason - my hair. Might be silly, but its my critical point. I did couple of cycles in my 30's but am definitely hesitant at 40's due to this fear. So there's many reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by endus
I only know what you tell me.Quote:
Originally Posted by endus
Playing with a drug with no human data is madness.
I guess my literal meaning could be confusing. To me, emergency care is when you go to your doc/clinic for out of ordinary visit. An emergency room visit is something more critical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kratos
I don't disagree with you - just finishing up.
Ya im not sure about it either. I work with some extremely toxic chemicals for my job and I thought i may have come into contact with them. So about 2 months later i tried it again. Same slow red welts came back onto my arms within about 5 or 6 days, insane itch coming back. As soon as i stopped it was gone in 2 or 3 days because i didnt let it go. Ill never do this stuff again, even though i still have a bunch of it left. I prefer AAS, and ive been losin my hair since i was 20 and i buzz and shave it all off already so that part doesnt even bother me any more.
forgot to mention i was dosing between 50 and 100 mgs, 4 days on and 1 day off trying to reduce the vision sides.
what am i taking?
Yeah, if you confirmed it, then not worth it. I didn't get it back and I'm leaning toward red dye 40. I'm stopping everything though - both S4 and albutrol. Got good result from that combination though.Quote:
Originally Posted by poundcake
I still got full head of hair and when I look at the guys at the gym (those that do AAS), they are all bald or partially bald. That scares me but I guess since I'm not a candidate for male patten baldness, I should be okay - right?
Andarine.Quote:
Originally Posted by OH REALLY
good post.. im not on lions s4
I am sure the smoke will clear and we will get some answers soon enough.
All s4 out there is andarine.Quote:
Originally Posted by OH REALLY
^ Are you sure? Any data to back that up?
Not sure what data you are looking for ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrosaro
As far as S4, all sources I've seen list theirs as Acetamidoxolutamide [ (S)-3-(4-acetylamino-phenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro-3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-propionamide ], which is same as one Ar-r is selling now based on their recent posting.
As stated "All s4 out there is andarine." is something I don't quite believe as of right now. How are we to know that there isn't any ostarine really out being produced and is legit? I would never say everything is andarine till real data has been produced as to if andarine is the only thing being produced or if there is ostarine out there and nobody has found it yet.
I like to know the facts and not a guess if you follow me.
hmm dont know if ill be running this again im a little scared now. I too ran a different brand of s-4 that i believe was advertised as ostarine but im not sure. I dont feel very safe taking somthing with so little information.
The only reason indicating why andarine was not further progressed in clinical study - and why ostarine was - is this excerpt from a journal found on American Chemistry Society's website. (ACS). This published journal is not viewable without an account, i will post this excerpt....VERY good reading....i've included the link if you'd like to pay to read the entire address:
3602 Journal of Medicinal Chemistry, 2009, Vol. 52, No. 12 Award Address
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jm900280m
Section 2.1.7. Andarine, the Prototypical Full Efficacy SARM.
Andarine was a SARM that served as the predominant model compound early in the development of the SARM field. Many of the landmark studies with andarine served as proofs-of-concept in the SARM field (e.g., concomitant myo- and osteoanabolism in the absence of VP proliferation, musculoskeletal performance enhancement, etc.). Preclinical characterization of andarine demonstrated high binding affinity for AR (Ki ) 4 nM) and ideal pharmacokinetics (complete oral bioavailability, plasma half-life consistent with daily oral dosing in rats and dogs) with no cross-reactivity with the other nuclear receptors. Myoanabolism was demonstrated in terms of maintenance and restoration of LA weight and restoration of soleus muscle strength in castrated rats. Likewise, osteoanabolism was observed in maintenance and restorative modes in male and female rats with improvements in biomechanical strength, cumulatively demonstrating musculoskeletal performance enhancement. The anabolic effects were also observed at the level of the entire organism as revealed by favorable body composition changes. Importantly, these anabolic effects were tissue-selective when compared to androgenic tissue and HPG axis effects, establishing andarine as a prototypical preclinical SARM. The peripheral and selective anabolic preclinical pharmacodynamic profile of andarine seemed highly promising and stimulated us to pursue landmark clinical trials of the SARMs, andarine and Ostarine. Although phase I studies with andarine were successful with no deficiencies noted , Ostarine was selected for advanced clinical development based on corporate strategy. Readers are cautioned to note that the name Ostarine is often mistakenly linked to the chemical structure of andarine. The chemical structure of Ostarine has not been publicly disclosed. The authors are unable to provide additional information. Collectively, these preclinical and clinical studies have provided the foundation for the massive body of SARM characterizations that are now published and patented (discussed below). Importantly, many of these pharmacodynamic observations have proven to be typical of subsequently published chemodiverse SARMs, as discussed in section 3.
ok so is this stuff making us blind
Lion - you need to put it in print. The comments on this page states that YOU have replied to an email that your S-4 is Ostarine, however your post above states that" The chemical structure of Ostarine has not been publicly disclosed.", which I take this to believe that Ostarine is not yet avaliable. WHAT ARE YOU SELLING????
Alright, looking back I see that you already made that disclosure that you sell S-4, which is Andarine
I really didn't think anything about this post until I saw something on another board where a research chem site was coming out and apologizing because they didn't know they weren't selling the real oxy and have updated there site.
I'm glad that its not the real deal actually because I haven't seen any logs of anyone getting anywhere near the results of Test. Test w/o the sides is suppose to be why its so good. All I ever see is logs of people who paid 300$ and are going blind for half the gains they wouldv't got with a bottle of m-drol that u can get for 25$ off ebay.