Problems on cycle ... please help.

**bigthug87** · 03-06-2013, 05:25 AM

Ok so having a couple problems on my 2nd cycle and am after some advice and help. I am the first to admit I should have been better prepared and am now suffering for it so please dont bash me. I openly admit I am an idiot and now just looking for help.

Here's my story.

I did my first cycle under the guidance of a friend who was been using for the last 3 years. When researching I looking into all things like AI and Serms and when my friend got me my gear I told him to get me these aswell.

Well he came back with Gen Tech Ultra Test 400 - a 10ml bottle of a blend containing -

test Prop - 30mg
test phenylprop - 60mg
test Isocaproate - 60mg
test enanthate - 100mg
tren enanthate - 150mg
per ml

The first time I did it I ran it at 1ml a week, done for me be this friend and it lasted for 8 weeks. Around week 7 I started to get a tiny bit of irritation of my nipples, infrequently though and nothing painful. I was told by this friend and also MANY (pretty much all users I know) to just take tamoxifens and you never need anything else to combat this.

I then came off and ran Nolva PCT for 3 weeks .

About 6 weeks after the end of the cycle I went back on ( Probally should have waited much longer ) and ran the same stuff at 1ml x 2 times a week , on monday and thursdays. Aswell as taking 20mg of tamoxifen ED.

Im currently on week 4, and am experiencing problems with nipple burning, I have checked and been to see someone who is an experienced bodybuilder as was unsatisfied with friends advice on just taking tamoxies to fix it.

It started sunday night, same as before, slight irriration but would go/ be on n off. The last 2 days though it was been constant and is worrying me terribly. I am freaking out a bit but am trying to keep cool headed. I upped the dose of the nolva to 60mg ED when this happened.

The guy with ALOT of experience told me there are currently no lumps there (thank god) although from my own view they are more puffy (water retention ?) and have a burning sensation alot now

INow from reading alot more I should have already had Arimidex or similar on hand to combat high estrogen, but was assured by MANY users they only ever use tamoxies and have no problems.

So now I am asking for help , the experienced user said to lower the dose to 1.5 ml a week and see if it stops. I also have picked up a bottle of test cyp and was thinking of dropping the gen tech INCASE the problem is being caused by the tren. I last injected this monday so will be atleast a week before it gets out of my system though

I am also currently away from home so dont know many people to get Arimidex though I have asked around and trying to get some ASAP

So options atm are ...

1. Come off totally (worried this will crash my test and make the gyno still develop)
2. Swap the mix with test cyp and keep taking Nolva at 60MG ED whilst trying to get some arimidex (soonest is looking to be around the weekend time , hope to god its not too late)
3. do whatever you guys tell me to do ...

Im an idiot, I admit, please just help me without abuse and I will be eternally in your debt. I am getting some vitamin B6 today to take 200mg x 3 ED. As have read this can help with tren gyno...

How long will it be before I will know which it is , or how long before its too late to do anythibg ???

Seriously panicking here

**kronik420** · 03-06-2013, 05:53 AM

option 1

run PCT 2 weeks after last shot, which should be nolva and clomid..

**kronik420** · 03-06-2013, 05:54 AM

you should really have done some research before sticking needles into your self...

lesson learnt?

**crazy mike** · 03-06-2013, 05:59 AM

Myself I can't help you. I'm not knowledgeable enough but I tell you stick on here and some of these guys know what you should do. I believe you are getting very poor advice

...crazy mike

**bigthug87** · 03-06-2013, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by kronik420

you should really have done some research before sticking needles into your self...

lesson learnt?

Lesson most definately learnt , thanks for offering some advice.

So don't continue with just test ? Will coming off now slowly let the estro level down ?

Worried about estro rebound etc.

Thanks for the advice - if you can give advice on then how to end cycle with minimal problems would be much aprreciated. Not worried about losing gains or financial loss. Just get health ok.

**Provita** · 03-06-2013, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by kronik420

option 1

run PCT 2 weeks after last shot, which should be nolva and clomid..

What he said!

Plus next time you think of using get arimidex and HCG on hand to combat the sides. Let these guys on the forum help you set up a decent cycle.

**Back In Black** · 03-06-2013, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by bigthug87

Lesson most definately learnt , thanks for offering some advice.

So don't continue with just test ? Will coming off now slowly let the estro level down ?

Worried about estro rebound etc.

Thanks for the advice - if you can give advice on then how to end cycle with minimal problems would be much aprreciated. Not worried about losing gains or financial loss. Just get health ok.

You have the advice of stopping and doing PCT. you haven't mentioned PCT above so I'm assuming you don't have it or don't understand it?

**kronik420** · 03-06-2013, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by bigthug87

Lesson most definately learnt , thanks for offering some advice.

So don't continue with just test ? Will coming off now slowly let the estro level down ?

Worried about estro rebound etc.

Thanks for the advice - if you can give advice on then how to end cycle with minimal problems would be much aprreciated. Not worried about losing gains or financial loss. Just get health ok.

yes just come off the test totally, and then run a PCT 2 weeks after your last shot..
nolva 40mg ED for a week, then 20mg ED for 3 weeks
clomid 100mg ED for a week, then 50mg ED for 3 weeks

then say a few weeks after that go get some blood work done (full hormone panel with E2 sensitivity assay) just to make sure everything is back to normal.

im guessing you didn;t get any blood work done before you started this cycle??

**bigthug87** · 03-06-2013, 06:20 AM

No blood work done before cycle. I was worried about having it on my medical records as I have a police background check for my licensed firearms I hold.

I understand PCT. 2 weeks after last shot. I already have the nolvadex . Currently don't have any clomid though as I have read it does the same thing ??

Will I be ok if I currently have no lump if I leave it for 2 weeks ?
Also should I keep taking Nolvadex and at what dose for the next 2 weeks until starting PCT.

Very much appreciate the help so far guys!

**kronik420** · 03-06-2013, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by bigthug87

No blood work done before cycle. I was worried about having it on my medical records as I have a police background check for my licensed firearms I hold.

I understand PCT. 2 weeks after last shot. I already have the nolvadex . Currently don't have any clomid though as I have read it does the same thing ??

Will I be ok if I currently have no lump if I leave it for 2 weeks ?
Also should I keep taking Nolvadex and at what dose for the next 2 weeks until starting PCT.

Very much appreciate the help so far guys!

get some clomid, either from a local source, or you can order some from ar-r (the banner at the top of the page, it's called liquid-clomid) if you live in the US it should be at your door step in no time..

i don't think taking nolva during the next 2 weeks before PCT will do too much for you... but i may be wrong (if i am im sure someone will correct me)

i think you'll be ok, but only blood work will be able to tell for sure... i would highly recommend you get some done after you finish PCT..

**bigthug87** · 03-06-2013, 06:54 AM

I am in the UK (Just outside Birmingham) at the moment, but back to Wales in the next 2 weeks. Can pickup some clomid between then.

Have read that Nolva stops the estrogen binding to the receptors in your chest thus preventing gyno. That's why I am unsure if to stop taking it in the 2 weeks before PCT

Will the puffyness around the nipple go back to normal once I stop ?

**kronik420** · 03-06-2013, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by bigthug87

I am in the UK (Just outside Birmingham) at the moment, but back to Wales in the next 2 weeks. Can pickup some clomid between then.

Have read that Nolva stops the estrogen binding to the receptors in your chest thus preventing gyno. That's why I am unsure if to stop taking it in the 2 weeks before PCT

Will the puffyness around the nipple go back to normal once I stop ?

yea definitely get a hold of some clomid,

you can keep taking the nolva if you wish, it won't hurt you either.. 40mg ED is plenty.

it should stop eventually... just give it time..

it might be a good idea to get a hold of some letro, just in case you do develop gyno...

**bigthug87** · 03-06-2013, 07:40 AM

Thanks Kronic for the advice. How evident will it be if I do get a lump ? All monday I was tweaking my nipples like some sort of sex fiend looking for a lump n several time was unsure about it, but the experienced person I spoke to after having enough of bad advice had a look and said there was nothing atm.

Also any idea how long before my nipples stop burning ? Sometimes its bearable or barely noticeable, others is pretty irritating / uncomfortable

... Deffo a lesson learned!

**kronik420** · 03-06-2013, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by bigthug87

Thanks Kronic for the advice. How evident will it be if I do get a lump ? All monday I was tweaking my nipples like some sort of sex fiend looking for a lump n several time was unsure about it, but the experienced person I spoke to after having enough of bad advice had a look and said there was nothing atm.

Also any idea how long before my nipples stop burning ? Sometimes its bearable or barely noticeable, others is pretty irritating / uncomfortable

... Deffo a lesson learned!

i can;t tell you when they will stop burning... i've never had that problem soo...

plus it's hard to tell what's causing it, could be high estrogen, or could be prolactin.. or could be a lil bit of both.. since you are taking test and tren (it's why it is advised that you only run just test for your 1st few cycles, so that it is alot easier to pin point what is giving you the sides..)

just give it time.. be patient.. let your body get back to normal first..

**that guy1234** · 03-06-2013, 08:00 AM

Go the the site sponsor and get liquid letro. That has shown the ability to reverse gyno and will def lower water retention.

**bigthug87** · 03-06-2013, 08:06 AM

Is Rui still ok for UK ? ... How to dose / take liquid letro ?

Many thanks , also any idea how long it'll take to come ?

**MickeyKnox** · 03-06-2013, 09:27 AM

I love it when guys say their experienced friend said so..lol. Your friend said do 800mg/wk and dont bother with an AI? Haha classic.

Anyway, you have lots of advice here. Good luck.

Btw, this belongs in Marcus thread, Cycles Gone Wrong.

**bigthug87** · 03-06-2013, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

I love it when guys say their experienced friend said so..lol. Your friend said do 800mg/wk and dont bother with an AI? Haha classic.

Anyway, you have lots of advice here. Good luck.

Btw, this belongs in Marcus thread, Cycles Gone Wrong.

Yes pretty stupid I can see now. I'm freaking out a little bit, still can't feel any lumps but have a constant burning sensation.

Can anyone tell me when the burning will stop and also if the Nolva will stop lumps forming in the chest ?

Hoping stoping now will be enough to not have anything there permanently.

**MickeyKnox** · 03-06-2013, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by bigthug87

Yes pretty stupid I can see now. I'm freaking out a little bit, still can't feel any lumps but have a constant burning sensation.

Can anyone tell me when the burning will stop and also if the Nolva will stop lumps forming in the chest ?

Hoping stoping now will be enough to not have anything there permanently.

No one here can possibly know when the burning will stop. But if you stop, wait until the ester clears your system, then begin PCT, you'll recover a lot sooner.

Nolva is a SERM and prevents gyno from forming at the breast tissue. You dont need 60mg/day for it to be effective.

**bigthug87** · 03-06-2013, 10:18 AM

So I'll be ok with no lumps and should go back to normal after pct ? ... When I say freaking out a "little" I actually mean a whole ****ing lot!! ... I need to chill, if its that bad then I will save and get the surgery. I'm just panicking atm as having the burning feeling is really not enjoyable.

**vtach12** · 03-06-2013, 01:06 PM

Run your PCT as already directed, and you should be fine. Even if you do develope a lump, there are drugs that can reverse it almost entirely if caught and treated within a few days. Of course it will crash your estro and you will feel like crap for a month, but no lumps.
Good luck

**redz** · 03-06-2013, 01:10 PM

You need to always run an ai on cycle. Tren is not a novice compound either and opens the door for even more side effects with prolactin issues.

**bigthug87** · 03-07-2013, 04:35 PM

ok so an update.

Started a little irritation on sunday night, was already on 20mg ED Nolva. On monday started getting more burning / on n off quite bad. Started 20mg Nolva x 3 ED. Did this Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.

Tuesday was burning sensation ALL day, Wed my nipples were on fire. Today I have slight burning but intermittently like on monday so its getting better than it was, hopefully not speaking too soon. Have some Adex that should be here by weekend hopefully.

Now atm I am continueing to take 20mg nolva x2 ED. Do you advise to take the Arimidex once it arrives ? Last injection was monday night of 1ml. Also have been taking 200mg x 3 ED of Vitamin B6.

Nipples still have no lumps yet but are definately puffy, possibly ( Im hoping atleast ) from a bit of water retention.

Appreciate any insight on proceeding. Atm am waiting for 2 weeks monday to start PCT.

Would also like to thanks everyone so far for your help and support. Much appreciated.

**thai007goy** · 03-07-2013, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by bigthug87

ok so an update.

Started a little irritation on sunday night, was already on 20mg ED Nolva. On monday started getting more burning / on n off quite bad. Started 20mg Nolva x 3 ED. Did this Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.

Tuesday was burning sensation ALL day, Wed my nipples were on fire. Today I have slight burning but intermittently like on monday so its getting better than it was, hopefully not speaking too soon. Have some Adex that should be here by weekend hopefully.

Now atm I am continueing to take 20mg nolva x2 ED. Do you advise to take the Arimidex once it arrives ? Last injection was monday night of 1ml. Also have been taking 200mg x 3 ED of Vitamin B6.

Nipples still have no lumps yet but are definately puffy, possibly ( Im hoping atleast ) from a bit of water retention.

Appreciate any insight on proceeding. Atm am waiting for 2 weeks monday to start PCT.

Would also like to thanks everyone so far for your help and support. Much appreciated.

Good luck bro!

**bigthug87** · 03-13-2013, 09:19 AM

Out of curiosity , why has no - one suggested HCG before PCT ?

I have the Nolva + Clomid on the way. Will start PCT this monday.

I know it will be a while before am back to normal. Probally the steroids messing with my head but after being very worried about Gyno I am now very worried about post PCT recovery etc.

I only did a light cycle at first ( 250mg test 150mg tren for 8 weeks, then 500mg test 300mg tren for 3 weeks ) . Do you think I will be ok and any rough estimates on how long to recover ?

Thanks for the help so far

**bigthug87** · 03-13-2013, 01:02 PM

bump

**MickeyKnox** · 03-13-2013, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by bigthug87

Out of curiosity , why has no - one suggested HCG before PCT ?

I have the Nolva + Clomid on the way. Will start PCT this monday.

I know it will be a while before am back to normal. Probally the steroids messing with my head but after being very worried about Gyno I am now very worried about post PCT recovery etc.

I only did a light cycle at first ( 250mg test 150mg tren for 8 weeks, then 500mg test 300mg tren for 3 weeks ) . Do you think I will be ok and any rough estimates on how long to recover ?

Thanks for the help so far

Out of curiosity, why did you not properly research this cycle? If you had, you would not be in this mess, i assure you that. And hCG belongs on cycle to prevent Testicular Atrophy, not at the end to treat it.

Keep us posted. And smarten up, for the sake of your health.

**zinghigh89** · 03-13-2013, 01:22 PM

Go to google or any search engine and type in 'So you think you have gyno' it should be one of the first results once you have completed the search. Give that a read. Sensitivity does not mean you have full on gyno. Is it definitely a stepping stone? Possibly. But gyno is not life threatening and often times unless someone knows what to look for or if you have it severely, it often goes unnoticed to the "untrained" eye. I'm not saying you shouldn't be worried and I hope you learned your lesson from all this, but when you look at the possible side effects associated with AAS abuse, gyno is small potatoes. IMO. That article should give you some relief.

**bigthug87** · 03-13-2013, 02:46 PM

I was very stupid and went on advice from people who had more experience using that I did, However have learned that doesn't mean they know what they are doing.

The Sensitivity is getting alot better as time goes on and still cant find any lumps , still a tiny bit puffy but they were like that a bit before from my teens ( Maybe a little bit of gyno there before ? )

What Im more concerned about is recovering from the cycle. As you have said Gyno is a small thing and my healthy is more important. I have been very stressed and up n down all week worrying myself about this.

Will run the PCT this coming Monday and then how long do you suggest waiting until getting full blood work done ? I have read that it can take quite a while to recover from tren ... will it be the same even with the low amount I took ?

Thank you for all help so far. Also Libido is down atm, however I have been VERY stressed about all this and constantly thinking about it non stop so Im sure that doesnt help.

**Antonious** · 03-13-2013, 03:52 PM

Good luck on PCT and dont panic, it wont help you

**MickeyKnox** · 03-13-2013, 03:56 PM

Bloodwork 6wks after completion of PCT. Then follow up with more bloodwork 4 wks later.

From KelKel's thread..

INITIAL BLOOD TESTS

• Total Testosterone
• Bioavailable testosterone (aka Free and Loosely Bound)
• Free Testosterone
• SHBG
• DHT (gel users especially pay attention to this)
• Estradiol (specify “sensitive” assay for males)
• LH
• FSH
• Prolactin
• Cortisol
• Thyroid Panel (complete)
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Panel
• PSA (age dependent)
• IGF-1, IGFBP-3 (if HGH therapy is being considered)
• Vitamin D

FOLLOW-UP LABS:

• Total Testosterone
• Bioavailable Testosterone
• Free Testosterone
• Estradiol (specify “sensitive” assay for males)
• LH
• FSH
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Profile
• PSA (for those over 40 with family history of prostate CA. >45 all others)
• IGF-1, IGFBP-3 (if GH therapy has been initiated already)