Deads for BACK!

**Columbus** · 11-03-2006, 06:02 AM

I incorporate deads twice a week every week...one str8 leg for hammys and 1 heavy for back....I am thinking of taking this week off from heavy back deads or incorporating more of a 4x8 as my 2nd or 3rd exercise instead of 5x5 or 5x3.....two questions.......I feel guilty as hell doing this as I feel it's like doing legs and not squatting....deads = mass. So do you feel that there are alternatives like heavy rows that may be BETTER or jsut as effective? What if I did 10x3 heavy deads one week...is this just for strength or mass as well? ANyone that can assist on a great mass back routine, huge K!

**helium3** · 11-03-2006, 07:34 AM

3x8-10 deads
3x8-10 rows
3x8-10 wide grip chins or lat pulls
3x8-12 lat pull overs

dont be affraid to try different rep ranges too as i feel they can play a vital roll in growth.

**Columbus** · 11-03-2006, 07:58 AM

not afraid....just want the best route to mass.......

**Columbus** · 11-03-2006, 09:34 AM

last WEEK
135x13
204x10
230x5
250x5
260x5
275x5
305x3

this week??? Or 4x8 or 10x3
210x10
235x5
255x5
265x5
280x4-5
310x2-3

or.......
3x8-10 deads
3x8-10 rows
3x8-10 wide grip chins or lat pulls
3x8-12 lat pull overs

**Hypertrophy** · 11-03-2006, 10:39 AM

Read up on linear periodization, that will answer your questions about rep schemes.

**Columbus** · 11-03-2006, 10:58 AM

thnx..got it all printed out...can you just asist me for today? I gotta train in 45 mins...

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-03-2006, 12:35 PM

deads twice a wk is suicide, even the worlds best deadlifters only deadlift once a wk. yes it can be done, but for short micro cycels not large macro cycles or permanent. switching it to one wil only help you IMO

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-03-2006, 12:38 PM

also, i told you this before, deads over 5 reps sre a waste, do more sets if you feel like you are not getting enough volume, instead of 3-10, try 5-5 or 8- 3.

**Columbus** · 11-10-2006, 06:56 AM

WASTE IN WHAT WAY? Why is reps of 6-8, 4 sets not optimum for mass...I understand lower reps is strength, but wouldnt it be in my best interest to switch it up?

**helium3** · 11-10-2006, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Doc.Sust

also, i told you this before, deads over 5 reps sre a waste, do more sets if you feel like you are not getting enough volume, instead of 3-10, try 5-5 or 8- 3.

reps over 5 dont produce hypertrophy then? sorry but thats just wrong.

low reps are excellent for strength and mass yeah,but you cant rule out higher reps like that.

**Columbus** · 11-10-2006, 08:42 AM

210x10
235x5
255x5
265x5
280x5
305x3
325x1

so if that was last week , what would you reccomend as a template for this week? Not so concerned with strength I really want some mass, however I know they usually go hand in hand...

215x10
245 x 8
255 x 6
265 x 6
315x3
330x1?

shopuld i drop the x10 as it tires the shit out of me, or do I need it? would 225x8 be a better lift?

**Fat Guy** · 11-10-2006, 09:32 AM

I think this question depends on what your goals are for your back…
If your looking for more mass = Heavy weight + low Reps will increase strength and add size
If you looking for more definition = Lower weight + higher Reps

As for as doing deads twice a week, I would think you are over working that muscle group unless you are on and have that quick recovery time or you might just have good genetics where you naturally recover quickly. Naturally, I can only do deads once a week for proper recovery.

Either way I hope this helps.

**Fat Guy** · 11-10-2006, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Columbus

210x10
235x5
255x5
265x5
280x5
305x3
325x1

so if that was last week , what would you reccomend as a template for this week? Not so concerned with strength I really want some mass, however I know they usually go hand in hand...

215x10
245 x 8
255 x 6
265 x 6
315x3
330x1?

shopuld i drop the x10 as it tires the shit out of me, or do I need it? would 225x8 be a better lift?

I would drop the set of 10 and set of 8 and add 2 sets around the that 300lbs + range, but that is just me and I am all about being a strength monkey…

**Columbus** · 11-10-2006, 09:46 AM

135x6, 185x6, 225x6, 275x3, 295x3, 315x3, 330x1, 265x8

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-10-2006, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Columbus

WASTE IN WHAT WAY? Why is reps of 6-8, 4 sets not optimum for mass...I understand lower reps is strength, but wouldnt it be in my best interest to switch it up?

because when you start to do higher numbers of reps in this lift, your form will start to compromise and this in fact may cause you to injure yourself, you can still get size without doing set s of 10's . 6's are fine, maybe 8 for a fianl set, but to do multiple sets of 8's is just a real bad idea IMO

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-10-2006, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by helium3

reps over 5 dont produce hypertrophy then? sorry but thats just wrong.

low reps are excellent for strength and mass yeah,but you cant rule out higher reps like that.

REPS OVER 5 DO PRODUCE HYPERTROPHY , I i NEVER SAID THEY DIDNT!!!! IN THIS LIFT YOU CAN RULE OUT DOING HIGHER REPS, IT ISNT LIKE DOING CURLS. YOUARE USING MAJOR MUSCLES GROUPS AND HAVE A GREATER CHANCE OF INJURY WITH HIGHER REPS. you can gain plenty of size using reps of 5-6 REPS in this particular lift with multiple set. hey you know what smart ass, KEEP DOING multiple sets of 10's in the lift, AND KEEP GOING HEAVY and lets see how quick you can herniate a disc or have a severe lumbar sprain /strain!

you said it yourself in you post, lower reps are great for mass, and in case you didnt know, hypertrophy adds mass, so realy you just reinforced the point i was trying to make!!!!

if you MUST use higher reps, dont choose this exercise for back and hamstrings, do lighter good mornings, light SLDL's, roman chair, leg curls, glute ham raises or reverse hypers.

doing the deadlift for set of 10's or 15's is just as bad of an idea as trying to do olympic lifts like the clean and jerk and snatch for reps of 10's to 15's. it is an accident waiting to happen

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-10-2006, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Columbus

135x6, 185x6, 225x6, 275x3, 295x3, 315x3, 330x1, 265x8

much much much better columbus!!!!!!! if by chance you still dont feel like you are getting enough of a pump, after you are done deadlifting, you can do a few sets of stiffleg deads for higher reps or good mornings

**chest6** · 11-10-2006, 12:42 PM

did not read the whole thread im in a hurry but

1. I dont like high rep deadlifts for growth/strength
2. there is absolutely NO NEED for deadlifts twice a week..its one of the most taxing movements your body will make in a weightroom

**helium3** · 11-10-2006, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Doc.Sust

REPS OVER 5 DO PRODUCE HYPERTROPHY , I i NEVER SAID THEY DIDNT!!!! IN THIS LIFT YOU CAN RULE OUT DOING HIGHER REPS, IT ISNT LIKE DOING CURLS. YOUARE USING MAJOR MUSCLES GROUPS AND HAVE A GREATER CHANCE OF INJURY WITH HIGHER REPS. you can gain plenty of size using reps of 5-6 REPS in this particular lift with multiple set. hey you know what smart ass, KEEP DOING multiple sets of 10's in the lift, AND KEEP GOING HEAVY and lets see how quick you can herniate a disc or have a severe lumbar sprain /strain!

you said it yourself in you post, lower reps are great for mass, and in case you didnt know, hypertrophy adds mass, so realy you just reinforced the point i was trying to make!!!!

if you MUST use higher reps, dont choose this exercise for back and hamstrings, do lighter good mornings, light SLDL's, roman chair, leg curls, glute ham raises or reverse hypers.

doing the deadlift for set of 10's or 15's is just as bad of an idea as trying to do olympic lifts like the clean and jerk and snatch for reps of 10's to 15's. it is an accident waiting to happen

we will agree to disagree about the reps.if the correct form is used there should be no problem.i work from high reps down to low reps over the course of many weeks increasing the weight as i go.i also use less sets when doing high reps,my back has responded very well,along with my grip.

not being a smart ass,if it works for you good, different people have different results.as far as herniating a disk,i lift/move 17tons of beer everyday plus training,my back aint goin anywhere.

**Undecided09** · 11-10-2006, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Doc.Sust

also, i told you this before, deads over 5 reps sre a waste, do more sets if you feel like you are not getting enough volume, instead of 3-10, try 5-5 or 8- 3.

WORDS OUT OF MY MOUTH!! As usual, Doc sust beating me to what I was going to say...if you want mass then higher volume would be the way to go, but IMO if you are doing the proper rep range with deads, meaning 4-8(at most) and if you are going super heavy like you should be, 3-4 sets should be enough....
~M.A.D.

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-11-2006, 10:27 AM

chest 6, and undecided9, i am glad you understand the reasoning

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-11-2006, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by helium3

we will agree to disagree about the reps.if the correct form is used there should be no problem.i work from high reps down to low reps over the course of many weeks increasing the weight as i go.i also use less sets when doing high reps,my back has responded very well,along with my grip.

not being a smart ass,if it works for you good, different people have different results.as far as herniating a disk,i lift/move 17tons of beer everyday plus training,my back aint goin anywhere.

do whatever you wish,i am just telling you what i know from multiple articles, research, trial and error and examples form the top deadlifters on the planet.

**Jakspro** · 11-11-2006, 01:03 PM

2 warmup sets of 10's is fine. Maybe even 12, if your using piss ant weight just to loosen up and solidifying your form. Then go to working sets. Lower reps but i also stress not more weight than you can bear. Just as getting 10 reps in with lighter weight can weaken form and cause injury, so can going 3 reps with shity form.

**Undecided09** · 11-11-2006, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Jakspro

2 warmup sets of 10's is fine. Maybe even 12, if your using piss ant weight just to loosen up and solidifying your form. Then go to working sets. Lower reps but i also stress not more weight than you can bear. Just as getting 10 reps in with lighter weight can weaken form and cause injury, so can going 3 reps with shity form.

This is an important point, because with deads, if your form isn't right you can seriously hurt yourself...Not to mention you aren't working the desired body part....Better to put the ego away for a sec and keep the form proper, than to pull it out and be sidelined for 12 weeks, because I promise you can't grow while you are injured and not lifting, lol....

~M.A.D.

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-13-2006, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Jakspro

2 warmup sets of 10's is fine. Maybe even 12, if your using piss ant weight just to loosen up and solidifying your form. Then go to working sets. Lower reps but i also stress not more weight than you can bear. Just as getting 10 reps in with lighter weight can weaken form and cause injury, so can going 3 reps with shity form.

sure warm ups for 10 are fine. what i was trying to compare was , you cant possibly train the deadlift to failure, not like curls or tricep pushdown,(isolation movements etc) if you are doing sets of 10's you can not posibly be coming close to failure, you would have to use a lighter weight(sub maxiaml weights). form is everything in this lift, lot of people on this board think this lift is soley for back, this is NOT the case, it works the entire posterior chain(glutes hams,quad lumborum, longissimus ,paraspinals, erectors,lats traps, slight biceps and even a little quad muscles. you shouldnt train this movement like it is an isolation movement because it is not even close to an isolation exercise, and you should never train this movement to failure using higher reps you can achieve hypertrophy usinf multiple sets and lower reps(ie- 5 sets of 5 reps is perfect using percentages of 55- to 80% of your one rep max)

**Columbus** · 11-13-2006, 10:35 AM

high rep for str8 leg deads? hamstring?

**Jakspro** · 11-13-2006, 10:48 AM

Doc, i totally agree with you brother

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-13-2006, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Columbus

high rep for str8 leg deads? hamstring?

again, you will get mixed views on this, i think 8's are fine for SLDL's s long as your form isnt compromised.

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-13-2006, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Jakspro

Doc, i totally agree with you brother

right back at you to bro! totaly agree with you

**Columbus** · 11-13-2006, 11:49 AM

Me Too!

**Undecided09** · 11-13-2006, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Doc.Sust

again, you will get mixed views on this, i think 8's are fine for SLDL's s long as your form isnt compromised.

8s are fine, but what is wrong with working in the low rep range? seems like you don't want to do it?? This is a mass builder for hammies and lower back, if you want higher reps then do laying hammy curls, an iso movement...

Heres how I do my hammies..

Stiffleg barbell Dead: sets 8,6,4,6,4

Superset with Lying hammy curls: 8-10 reps....

thats pretty killer...

~M.A.D.

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-13-2006, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided09

8s are fine, but what is wrong with working in the low rep range? seems like you don't want to do it?? This is a mass builder for hammies and lower back, if you want higher reps then do laying hammy curls, an iso movement...

Heres how I do my hammies..

Stiffleg barbell Dead: sets 8,6,4,6,4

Superset with Lying hammy curls: 8-10 reps....

thats pretty killer...

~M.A.D.

i agree with you on this as well, but sometimes after i have done multiple sets o deadlift, and than i move on to SLDL's i just want to finish them without having to do multiple sets so i will bang at 2- 3sets of 8 with submaximal weight instead of 5 or 6 sets of 5 with submaximal weight again since i am spent alreadyfrom the inital regular deadlifts, now if i was going to be using SLDL's as my main exercise, than i would follow a program closer to your rep scheme. either way it is fine,

**Undecided09** · 11-13-2006, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Doc.Sust

i agree with you on this as well, but sometimes after i have done multiple sets o deadlift, and than i move on to SLDL's i just want to finish them without having to do multiple sets so i will bang at 2- 3sets of 8 with submaximal weight instead of 5 or 6 sets of 5 with submaximal weight again since i am spent alreadyfrom the inital regular deadlifts, now if i was going to be using SLDL's as my main exercise, than i would follow a program closer to your rep scheme. either way it is fine,

When I said "what is wrong with workin the lower rep range" that was directed at Columbus, not you Doc....i believe earlier he was having trouble accepting the lower reps....

P.S. I do Deads and Stiff Deads on Different days...As long as you get your butt down and bend your knees, the hammies are pretty much out of the equation....So no worries on overtraining them there...

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-13-2006, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided09

When I said "what is wrong with workin the lower rep range" that was directed at Columbus, not you Doc....i believe earlier he was having trouble accepting the lower reps....

P.S. I do Deads and Stiff Deads on Different days...As long as you get your butt down and bend your knees, the hammies are pretty much out of the equation....So no worries on overtraining them there...

LOL i new you were speaking to columbus! hahah! we pretty much see eye to eye on this. myself i am not a fan of having to seperate days to deadlift and SLDL, but i am older now and i dont recover as quick. i used to do programs that involved doing at the minimum 5 sets of 5reps 3 days a wk! as long as you are recovering quickly , keep it up! but switch it up from time to time, do a program maybe were you do 6- wks of 2 days, than maybe do another 6 wks of one deadlift day only.but really, as long as you feel your program isnt getting stale and you are making gains, keep it going

**Undecided09** · 11-14-2006, 12:42 AM

Well I mean the only way to know is to try it out, and i feel too many people on this board are constantly changing up things, you can't see result without consistency, and at the same time you can't continue results without change...Therefore its important to stick to your plan for exactly as long as you planned on, and then change things up and do it all over again...Consisently being inconsistent leads to stagnation..

**Pac8541** · 11-30-2006, 02:28 PM

135x6, 185x6, 225x6, 275x3, 295x3, 315x3, 330x1, 265x8

Just wanted to stop into this thread, even though its old, and say that I've read just about everything I can find here on the deadlift. Its been one of my favorite lifts for quite some time but I've never been able to pull anything extraordinary. After reading this thread I decided to give Columbus's above set/rep pattern a try. Its been 2 weeks now so I've been through the sets twice and its been absolutely awesome. I found an article here concerning the 10 biggest deadlift mistakes and applied some of those to the lift (still perfecting it) and I can already tell that 405 is just around the corner.

Columbus and Doc Sust, thanks for putting up one of the best threads on this board. I'll let you know when I breach the 400 mark!!

**Middleweight** · 11-30-2006, 09:49 PM

Good thread! I've been working out for years and just learned something new.
DOC SUST: Appreciate all your knowledge and am going to try less reps when deadlifting as opposed to high reps.

***Doc.Sust*** · 11-30-2006, 10:43 PM

glad it helping gentleman. stop by the powerlifting forum and look at some of my deadlift routines i created and posted as stickies.

**Undecided09** · 12-01-2006, 01:46 AM

Deadlifting for High Reps makes no sense...its a power/Compound/Mass building movement...enough said, lol....

**Pac8541** · 12-01-2006, 04:07 AM

glad it helping gentleman. stop by the powerlifting forum and look at some of my deadlift routines i created and posted as stickies.

Did that weeks ago and copied and pasted them into a document saved on my computer. Been reviewing them ever since. Good shit bro, thanks!!

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