Anyone here actually done both taper down cycle (w/no SERM) and cycle + SERM?

[SMcB]

After doing research, it seems the internet world would never do a steroid cycle without bombing tamoxifen and/or clomid post cycle. Yet, when talking to steroid users in the real world, none of them ever heard things like 'PCT', 'SERM', etc. These guys just use the taper down method. They're all pretty big, even the ones who are off cycle or have been off for quite some time, which has been leading me to believe that it is possible to retain some gains of steroid use without taking drugs like tamoxifen and clomid. You also hear alot about gyno and 'delayed' gyno from the guys who use these SERMs for PCT, which I don't hear from users in the real world. Have any of you out there actually used BOTH methods of cycling? I'm not sure if I am ever going to run a cycle, but if I do, I'm actually more worried about side effects of the SERMs than I am about the side effects of steroids. I guess I would rather listen to someone who has used both methods as opposed to someone who preaches SERMs and PCT just because everyone else on the internet is doing them.

[rc_p90]

Interested to see some answers.

Probably wont get much because 3/4 of this site is 19 year olds trying to figure out there first cycle.

[manveer1]

LOOL where did you get that stat from lol. Theres more than enough highly credible people on this site , especially likes of bonaparte and swifto.

[SMcB]

Wow, so no one here has experience with both taper down method without SERM vs. quitting cold turkey + SERM? Aren't there any old school users here?

[Brewster]

ummmm... Lots of old school users on TRT

[MACHINE5150]

I do not have personal experience but i have some friends that used to do that before starting to use PCT.. PCT is better, and with nolvadex you shouldn't get gyno.. the science behind the theory of "tapering down" is flawed.. your body only produces about 1-200mg of test a week.. so any external test in your body will shut you down.. granted your body will more than likely rebound, but a lot of peoples won't righyt away or at all.. the guys that are not on the internet are taking the word of the guy who sold them the steroids.. and to be completley honest clomid, tamox, nolva and all that will be the first thing a dealer runs out of.. if he carries it at all since the profit margin is so much smaller and it is VERY hard to get if you don't know what you are looking for.. nowadays you can buy them from AR-R.com but back in the day it was not so easy.. Especially in the states where i assume a large quanity (in cali atleast) is coming from veternarian clinics in mexico who do not even sell SERMS.. The internet (and this board especially) will always be on the cutting edge of what is going on in the Steroid world.. i recomend you use the advice you get on here and not something parroted down from a dealer who doesn't want to bother sourcing/importing the SERMS cause he only makes one tenth the mark up on them.

[Swifto]

After doing research, it seems the internet world would never do a steroid cycle without bombing tamoxifen and/or clomid post cycle. Yet, when talking to steroid users in the real world, none of them ever heard things like 'PCT', 'SERM', etc. These guys just use the taper down method. They're all pretty big, even the ones who are off cycle or have been off for quite some time, which has been leading me to believe that it is possible to retain some gains of steroid use without taking drugs like tamoxifen and clomid. You also hear alot about gyno and 'delayed' gyno from the guys who use these SERMs for PCT, which I don't hear from users in the real world. Have any of you out there actually used BOTH methods of cycling? I'm not sure if I am ever going to run a cycle, but if I do, I'm actually more worried about side effects of the SERMs than I am about the side effects of steroids. I guess I would rather listen to someone who has used both methods as opposed to someone who preaches SERMs and PCT just because everyone else on the internet is doing them.

You think we're all parrotts and sheep and only use SERMs for PCT because someone else is doing it?

You wont find a lot of people who are opposed to SERM use on here, or anywhere that has a few knowledgable members on various aspects of the HPTA.

I have friends that taper down and are also pretty big, but the majority of them have pretty much zero sexual labdio when "off" and struggle to get an erection, although they wont be telling you that part.

The idea of coming off everything and teppering down is nothing new and its something I'd do if I was on HRT. You need to give the body a break from androgens IMHO, but I'd be on a low dose of a SERM during this peroid to give myself a boost, not OFF OFF. I've come off of androgens for 2-3 weeks on cycle and I sure as f*ck suffer from side effects of low testosterone (as I assumed I would).

I do taper, but not for the reasons you have attempted to highlight. I do it because of acne.

[Swifto]

Just to add as well. You have a lot to learn mate.

Just because someone at your gym is doing it and is "big" it doesnt mean its correct and it certainly doesnt mean YOU might have the same experience.

[xnotoriousx]

I liked this thread, good read. Listen to swifto here bro

[SMcB]

OK, thanks for the input, guys. I guess the only way I'd know how much more effective SERMs are for PCT would be to do cycles with AND without. I guess I just don't trust SERMs for PCT just yet, since these drugs were initially developed for women. Take tamoxifen, for example. This stuff supposedly acts like estrogen by competing for and binding to estrogen receptors in breast tissue. I just think that the seemingly increasing amount of cases of gyno and 'delayed gyno' in steroid users today are somewhat related to SERM usage. Of course, it's just my opinion. Does anyone here have any studies proving that SERM use in PCT will result in more permanent gains? I'm assuming this is why people risk taking these drugs in the first place.

[Gaspari1255]

Interested to see some answers.

Probably wont get much because 3/4 of this site is 19 year olds trying to figure out there first cycle.

That's interesting.

[RaZr]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't letro the notorious drug for rebound gyno not tamox?

[RaZr]

Also id take a little gyno that could be possibly reversible over raisins for balls and sterility.

[Swifto]

OK, thanks for the input, guys. I guess the only way I'd know how much more effective SERMs are for PCT would be to do cycles with AND without. I guess I just don't trust SERMs for PCT just yet, since these drugs were initially developed for women. Take tamoxifen, for example. This stuff supposedly acts like estrogen by competing for and binding to estrogen receptors in breast tissue. I just think that the seemingly increasing amount of cases of gyno and 'delayed gyno' in steroid users today are somewhat related to SERM usage. Of course, it's just my opinion. Does anyone here have any studies proving that SERM use in PCT will result in more permanent gains? I'm assuming this is why people risk taking these drugs in the first place.

You've come here and done hardly any research yourself at all, but have some pretty strong opinions indeed.

How can you have such opinions when you know so little about SERMs? You cant.

There are tons of studies on SERM usage in hypogondal males. Start with the sticky's in the PCT Forum.