Vatican lists "new sins," including pollution

[kfrost06]

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Thou shall not pollute the Earth. Thou shall beware genetic manipulation. Modern times bring with them modern sins. So the Vatican has told the faithful that they should be aware of "new" sins such as causing environmental blight.

The guidance came at the weekend when Archbishop Gianfranco Girotti, the Vatican's number two man in the sometimes murky area of sins and penance, spoke of modern evils.

Asked what he believed were today's "new sins," he told the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano that the greatest danger zone for the modern soul was the largely uncharted world of bioethics.

"(Within bioethics) there are areas where we absolutely must denounce some violations of the fundamental rights of human nature through experiments and genetic manipulation whose outcome is difficult to predict and control," he said.

The Vatican opposes stem cell research that involves destruction of embryos and has warned against the prospect of human cloning.

Girotti, in an interview headlined "New Forms of Social Sin," also listed "ecological" offences as modern evils.

In recent months, Pope Benedict has made several strong appeals for the protection of the environment, saying issues such as climate change had become gravely important for the entire human race.

Under Benedict and his predecessor John Paul, the Vatican has become progressively "green."

It has installed photovoltaic cells on buildings to produce electricity and hosted a scientific conference to discuss the ramifications of global warming and climate change, widely blamed on human use of fossil fuels.

Girotti, who is number two in the Vatican "Apostolic Penitentiary," which deals with matter of conscience, also listed drug trafficking and social and economic injustices as modern sins.

But Girotti also bemoaned that fewer and fewer Catholics go to confession at all.

He pointed to a study by Milan's Catholic University that showed that up to 60 percent of Catholic faithful in Italy stopped going to confession.

In the sacrament of Penance, Catholics confess their sins to a priest who absolves them in God's name.

But the same study by the Catholic University showed that 30 percent of Italian Catholics believed that there was no need for a priest to be God's intermediary and 20 percent felt uncomfortable talking about their sins to another person.

[Tock]

50 cents and the Vatican's opinion on anything will get you a Dallas newspaper.

- Yawn -

[kfrost06]

50 cents and the Vatican's opinion on anything will get you a Dallas newspaper.

- Yawn -

you read it, didn't you

[Panzerfaust]

I wouldn't give a bucket of mountain lion piss for the opinion of the Vatican or any Catholic priest.

LMAO @ Catholic's making up religious laws. These are the same people who are infested with perverts and child molestors and when one is caught, they simply ship the priest to a new parish in another town.

They have no religious credibility IMO.

[Prada]

I wouldn't give a bucket of mountain lion piss for the opinion of the Vatican or any Catholic priest.

LMAO @ Catholic's making up religious laws. These are the same people who are infested with perverts and child molestors and when one is caught, they simply ship the priest to a new parish in another town.

They have no religious credibility IMO.

I have a similar view on all religions, in general. I still seem to respect peoples choices for the time being as long as they leave me alone.

[thegodfather]

*Yawn*....I'd rather hear Mickey Mouses opinion...

[Pooks]

*Yawn*....I'd rather hear Mickey Mouses opinion...

LOL DITTO..

I dont enjoy the "I've been bad, spank me father" game

[jbonez19]

I have a similar view on all religions, in general. I still seem to respect peoples choices for the time being as long as they leave me alone.

f'in' A bro, there's been more evil done in human history for religious beliefs than under any other banner. religions arethe sooner we all realise it the sooner we can come together as one species united. if there truly was a god or gods, i believe he she or they would be like nothing anyone has ever imagined. anyway i heard one of the "new" sins is being obscenely wealthy. guess bill gates has a big ****in' problem then...

[kfrost06]

f'in' A bro, there's been more evil done in human history for religious beliefs than under any other banner. religions arethe sooner we all realise it the sooner we can come together as one species united. if there truly was a god or gods, i believe he she or they would be like nothing anyone has ever imagined. anyway i heard one of the "new" sins is being obscenely wealthy. guess bill gates has a big ****in' problem then...

Oh really, would you care to state such evil? was it more than the Nazi banner? the Soviet banner? how about laos killing fields? or the current genocides in durfar or rwanda? fill me in with your wisdom.

[kfrost06]

I wouldn't give a bucket of mountain lion piss for the opinion of the Vatican or any Catholic priest.

LMAO @ Catholic's making up religious laws. These are the same people who are infested with perverts and child molestors and when one is caught, they simply ship the priest to a new parish in another town.

They have no religious credibility IMO.

Well there are over 1 billion people (practicing Catholics) that do care and since the Catholic population in Texas is growing you will learn to care. In your eyes no one has religious credibility but then again you are so far out there with your beliefs it comes as no surprise.

[Panzerfaust]

f'in' A bro, there's been more evil done in human history for religious beliefs than under any other banner. religions arethe sooner we all realise it the sooner we can come together as one species united. if there truly was a god or gods, i believe he she or they would be like nothing anyone has ever imagined. anyway i heard one of the "new" sins is being obscenely wealthy. guess bill gates has a big ****in' problem then...

This thread is going to the shitter real quick after hearing this one. I'm outta here

[thegodfather]

Oh really, would you care to state such evil? was it more than the Nazi banner? the Soviet banner? how about laos killing fields? or the current genocides in durfar or rwanda? fill me in with your wisdom.

The Crusades....the Salem witch trials...I'm sure we can pick out just as many evil acts committed in the name of religion as any other reason. Trying to say one is worse than the other is really pointless, so long as you acknowledge that both religion and OTHER motivations have been equally as devastating to human life and that BOTH have been the justification for evil acts in the world. One point that would be pretty hard to argue with, is that religion is yet another point to add to the list of things which divide the human species. I suppose that doesn't matter as we will always find SOMETHING to be divided over.

[kfrost06]

The Crusades....the Salem witch trials...I'm sure we can pick out just as many evil acts committed in the name of religion as any other reason. Trying to say one is worse than the other is really pointless, so long as you acknowledge that both religion and OTHER motivations have been equally as devastating to human life and that BOTH have been the justification for evil acts in the world. One point that would be pretty hard to argue with, is that religion is yet another point to add to the list of things which divide the human species. I suppose that doesn't matter as we will always find SOMETHING to be divided over.

He stated, "there's been more evil done in human history for religious beliefs than under any other banner". That is far from true. In his defense you pointed out the Salem Witch trials which resulted in 19 deaths. World War II resulted in 72 million. There is no comparison. Lets stick to the arguement that religion is more evil than any other banner. It is a shameless lie in order for the liberals to feel better about their discrimmination. If one chooses not to have a religion then thats their choice but there is no need to start the trash talking about the ones who choose to believe in God.

[Kärnfysikern]

So the catholic church is going back to beeing anti science.. To bad, they have been doing pretty damn good lately. I really like that they do not argue against evolution. But saying genetic engineering is a sin is the biggest pile of bullshit I have ever heard.

Whats the difference betwen twins and human clones? Answere NONE AT ALL. I guess nature is sinning all the time.

[kfrost06]

So the catholic church is going back to beeing anti science.. To bad, they have been doing pretty damn good lately. I really like that they do not argue against evolution. But saying genetic engineering is a sin is the biggest pile of bullshit I have ever heard.

Whats the difference betwen twins and human clones? Answere NONE AT ALL. I guess nature is sinning all the time.

umm, the difference be twins and human clones? Well, twins are natural and have been occuring since the beginning of time and human clones at this point is still science fiction, i.e. there has not been a human clone ever. You lost me on that one Karn.

[thegodfather]

umm, the difference be twins and human clones? Well, twins are natural and have been occuring since the beginning of time and human clones at this point is still science fiction, i.e. there has not been a human clone ever. You lost me on that one Karn.

So now we're going to talk about what is natural and what isn't? I hope that you do not take ANY prescription drugs what so ever, because you know most of them are not natural and are synthesized in the lab. I also hope you dont wear corrective lenses, or have ever had surgery of any kind, all of which involve things man made that are not natural, and that have not been occuring since the beginning of time. That is a ridiculous argument. The more that science advances the less credible the argument for religion becomes, it is obvious the church views advances in science as a threat to their business. Let us not kids ourselves either, the Catholic Church is BIG BUSINESS.

[kfrost06]

So now we're going to talk about what is natural and what isn't? I hope that you do not take ANY prescription drugs what so ever, because you know most of them are not natural and are synthesized in the lab. I also hope you dont wear corrective lenses, or have ever had surgery of any kind, all of which involve things man made that are not natural, and that have not been occuring since the beginning of time. That is a ridiculous argument. The more that science advances the less credible the argument for religion becomes, it is obvious the church views advances in science as a threat to their business. Let us not kids ourselves either, the Catholic Church is BIG BUSINESS.

what are you talking about? lay off the drugs before you post. You are so far off in outer space it's impossible to have any type of discussion with you.

[Panzerfaust]

So now we're going to talk about what is natural and what isn't? I hope that you do not take ANY prescription drugs what so ever, because you know most of them are not natural and are synthesized in the lab. I also hope you dont wear corrective lenses, or have ever had surgery of any kind, all of which involve things man made that are not natural, and that have not been occuring since the beginning of time. That is a ridiculous argument. The more that science advances the less credible the argument for religion becomes, it is obvious the church views advances in science as a threat to their business. Let us not kids ourselves either, the Catholic Church is BIG BUSINESS.

C'mon man..lets keep this focused on Catholic's...but keep it off Religion as a whole.

[Kärnfysikern]

umm, the difference be twins and human clones? Well, twins are natural and have been occuring since the beginning of time and human clones at this point is still science fiction, i.e. there has not been a human clone ever. You lost me on that one Karn.

What I mean is that the end result of cloning a human is exactly the same as giving birth to twins. Two genetically identical humans. I se no point in cloning humans, but I dont se any moral objection to it either.

Hopefully we will be able to clone organs in the future and that way make sure no one has to wait for a transplant.

[cslade305]

I don't know if this fits in with the topic, but it is something I have been pondering as I pin myself - Is the use of steroids a sin? And if so how does one who has a faith make the justification?

[Tock]

jbonez19] [/B]f'in' A bro, there's been more evil done in human history for religious beliefs than under any other banner.

Oh really, would you care to state such evil?

I sure would.

was it more than the Nazi banner?

Yep. Lots more.

the Soviet banner? how about laos killing fields? or the current genocides in durfar or rwanda?

Yep. Lots more than all of that.

fill me in with your wisdom.

Organized religion in general, and Christianity in particular, promote not only superstition, but authoritarianism. Many people have been told, "Beleive, or die!" or, "You must do X because the Holy Book commands it," or some other such nonsense. And Billions of people have suffered in the process.


Ya, there's lots more . . . you can find it yourself if you only look.
For starters, try:

http://www.infidels.org/
http://www.atheists.org/




"[E]very major religion today is a winner in the Darwinian struggle waged among cultures, and none ever flourished by tolerating its rivals." Edward O. Wilson, Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge, (First edition, New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1998), p. 144.

[kfrost06]

What I mean is that the end result of cloning a human is exactly the same as giving birth to twins. Two genetically identical humans. I se no point in cloning humans, but I dont se any moral objection to it either.

Hopefully we will be able to clone organs in the future and that way make sure no one has to wait for a transplant.

When it comes to organs, I agree, it would be hard not to agree. As to the first part there is a lot of gray area. I am far from an expert on this field but I recall reading that the clones are far from being a twin. The cloned genes have big problems with mutating, becoming diseased and dying much earlier then the parent clone(and this includes Dolly). In terms of being sinful or in terms of morality one must look at the possible exploytation of clones. Would we start cloning "perfect genes" to get the perfect race, similar to what Hitler had in mind. Granted, I am being the devils advocate here. I know there can be great potential in cloning, like organ replacement. I am simply pointing out that it's a new field and it's not black and white. There is potential for abuse. Is the new clone going to have the same rights as a natural born person? questions that must be answered at some point and I will not write off as a big pile of BS to question the "sinfulness" or at least the potential of sinfulness in the field.

[kfrost06]

I don't know if this fits in with the topic, but it is something I have been pondering as I pin myself - Is the use of steroids a sin? And if so how does one who has a faith make the justification?

I think thats a good question and depends on the person. I personally do not see it as a sin but like anything else, used in excess or abused it would be sinful. For example, I do not see drinking as sinful but I see being a drunk as sinful. I view gear the same way. If you are using it to cheat in a sport, well that would cuase one to question their conscience. I feel comfortable in my use and believe it betters me, allows me to harness my potential but thats me. How about you? Curoius as to your thoughts.

[kfrost06]

fill me in with your wisdom.

Organized religion in general, and Christianity in particular, promote not only superstition, but authoritarianism. Many people have been told, "Beleive, or die!" or, "You must do X because the Holy Book commands it," or some other such nonsense. And Billions of people have suffered in the process.


Ya, there's lots more . . . you can find it yourself if you only look.
For starters, try:

http://www.infidels.org/
http://www.atheists.org/

That is your wisdom? Tock, you have not been the same since Logan left. You are usually much better than that^^^

[cslade305]

I think thats a good question and depends on the person. I personally do not see it as a sin but like anything else, used in excess or abused it would be sinful. For example, I do not see drinking as sinful but I see being a drunk as sinful. I view gear the same way. If you are using it to cheat in a sport, well that would cuase one to question their conscience. I feel comfortable in my use and believe it betters me, allows me to harness my potential but thats me. How about you? Curoius as to your thoughts.

My initial thought was that it probably would be considered a sin. You offer a valid point that anything used in excess is a sin and things used in moderation are not. The only difference in your example, alcohol, and the use of steriods is that steriods are illegal and in general alcohol is not. Of course God didn't make steroids illegal, man did. Thus lies the quandry.

[SMCengineer]

The only difference in your example, alcohol, and the use of steriods is that steriods are illegal and in general alcohol is not. Of course God didn't make steroids illegal, man did. Thus lies the quandry.

Exactly, you can't confuse legality with morality.

[Kärnfysikern]

When it comes to organs, I agree, it would be hard not to agree. As to the first part there is a lot of gray area. I am far from an expert on this field but I recall reading that the clones are far from being a twin. The cloned genes have big problems with mutating, becoming diseased and dying much earlier then the parent clone(and this includes Dolly). In terms of being sinful or in terms of morality one must look at the possible exploytation of clones. Would we start cloning "perfect genes" to get the perfect race, similar to what Hitler had in mind. Granted, I am being the devils advocate here. I know there can be great potential in cloning, like organ replacement. I am simply pointing out that it's a new field and it's not black and white. There is potential for abuse. Is the new clone going to have the same rights as a natural born person? questions that must be answered at some point and I will not write off as a big pile of BS to question the "sinfulness" or at least the potential of sinfulness in the field.

I agree that there are alot of possibilities with biotech that might be exploitable. But when it comes to creating "perfect" genes I dont se a problem. If I in say 20 years biotech has advanced enough so that we can eliminate all hereditary diseases and choose different things for our children I would not mind.

The morally wrong thing will be that in the initial transition period only some can afford to "modify" their children or themself while others cant. But that will equalise when the technology becomes more affordable. The same thing will happen with different kind of implants we will se in the close future that can boost memory, intelligence ect. At first only rich people will be able to afford it and a gap will be created betwen rich and poor.

The bottom line is that those kinds of technologies will be developed so the question is how are society going to handle it. But stating its a "sin" does nothing constructive to the situation. Humanity as a whole will in the long run benifit from it, but its going to create conflict inititialy.

[cslade305]

I'm going to move my question regarding are steroids a sin to its on thread. The topic here seems to be more about science and religion and I don't want to be off topic. Later

[thegodfather]

what are you talking about? lay off the drugs before you post. You are so far off in outer space it's impossible to have any type of discussion with you.

I'm not quite sure why you feel that way. I simply refuted the basis of your argument. You argued that because it is not natural, it is "sinful." I then simply pointed out the obvious that many of the things that you take for granted in your life, is thanks to science. It is no thanks to religion, which has fought science every step of the way, executing them at some points in history for being blasphemous sinners who would dare challenge the knowledge of the almighty Vatican. The many advances you take for granted everyday would never have come about if secularism had not taken hold in society many years ago. The obvious hypocrisy of such things is quite funny to me. People who denounce scientists as being faithless sinners, and yet will partake in the luxury items that scientists are directly responsible for. Maybe I am in outerspace, but I'd much rather be in outerspace then be part of the 1 billion people a year con'd out of their money, i.e.-catholics.

[Tock]

That is your wisdom? Tock, you have not been the same since Logan left. You are usually much better than that^^^

No, it's a reference to somebody's else's wisdom.

I've summed it up several times in other threads, and I'm disinclined to do it again.


You're right, though . . . I haven't been quite the same since Logan left. I've cried myself to sleep every night since he -- since he -- sniff sniff sniff -- since he LEFT ME!
* sob *