Deca Dosage? Advice Needed

[locowhiteguy77]

This is going to be my 3rd cycle. First, was test E only 12wks, Second,same with a little dbol for a kickstart. I have been completely off the sauce for 10months. My current stats:
6'3
204pds. (On empty stomach on wake-up)
BF 13.1% (Mostly from ab area-I'm working on it)

I planned on
Test Cyp. 500mg a wk for 12wk.
Deca 400mg-10wk ( Is 300mg better? Never took Deca before)
My PCT is lined up with Nolva/Proviron/6-oxo
Being a mass cycle, My food intake is going to be over 5000cals a day.

I never had any problems with gyno from past cycles. I am worried about the deca and my natty being shutdown. What have been your guy's sides on a testcyp./deca only cycle, and after proper PCT, did your natty go back to normal?
I am not going to use a kickstart, I didn't like the bloat from the dbol, I am happy for the 4-5week wait for kick in. Just looking for overall consense on your deca experience. My goals are 10-20lbs which I believe is attainable with proper eating and hard training. Thanks
Edit/Delete Message

[WARMachine]

That looks like a good cycle bro!

If you want a kickstart you can use Prop, or anadrol since you dont like dbol...

I think youll have a good cycle with that!

Good to see someone who has done some research and took the time to use advanced compounds!

Kudos!

[MercyDog]

your tall but at 204 you could up the test if you wanted. personally I like to run more or the same test to deca because I'm a whore. Natty goes back. 10-20 pounds at your height is still in your natural range so you should be ok keeping that, Always have at least nolva on hand, just in case.

[WARMachine]

Always have at least nolva on hand, just in case.

NEVER TAKE NOLVA ON CYCLE WHEN USING DECA OR TREN!

It will produce more side effects...

Get Letro on hand, and run Adex from the beginning of the cycle until the end. Stopping before your PCT begins...

[Mulciber]

IMO.. no matter what your running, deca,tren whatever and gyno symptoms appear nolvadex is the drug of choice..

[Big]

nolva can exacerbate the situation if taking a 19nor.

[WARMachine]

IMO.. no matter what your running, deca,tren whatever and gyno symptoms appear nolvadex is the drug of choice..

100% DIS-agree

[Mulciber]

ok, just explain exactly why and how please.. not just produce more side effects or exacerbate the situation if taking a 19nor.. wanna see where you guys are coming from thats all..
way i see it estrogen is the main factor in gyno.. without it gyno isnt going to happen..
if gyno symptoms pop up im not waiting around on an AI .. screw that.. problem just progresses and continues to get worse... im stoping the binding to the receptors asap. with nolvadex.
hell, i run an adex and nolvadex through all my cycles tren,deca whatever.. controlling estrogen the entire way.. with the estrogen under control progesterone,prolactin nothing will become a factor. never once had an issue after using this protocol.

[Big]

Nolva increses PgR ( in breast tissue), therefore , it is possible that nolva can cause a lot of problems , when using a 19 nor ( like tren , deca ).. It can give more [ PgR] for the 19 nor's metabolites to bind too .. Thus possibly increasing your chances of getting gyno ...


~thanks Merc.~

[Mooseman33]

thats a solid cycle bro, i ran the same cyle, trained like a beast, ate like a champ and put on almost 30lbs in 10 weeks, however i wish i would have lowered the deca as it fuked my sex life up...i would run at 300 if i was u
i had clomid, nolva , and some hcg on hand for pct and still was fuked.think it was my research chems for pct but it shut me the fuk down,
kept close to 22lbs, ran adex at .25ed had little if any bloat...
hope that helps.

[Dinosaur]

most members would suggest running letro with 19 nor like big and said.
but for mulciber he might be lucky got away with running nolva only.

[Big]

most members would suggest running letro with 19 nor like big and said.
but for mulciber he might be lucky got away with running nolva only.

I've known guys who ran nolva with 19nor's and had no issues, but everyone is different, so knowing that nolva can increase the chances of gyno, and there are other compounds that are effective and don't increase the chances of gyno, to me there is no reason to include the nolva.

[BG]

This is one of those looks good on paper. If you control your estrogen from the start there shouldnt be a progesterone problem, its when theres a abundance of estrogen problems accure. BajanBastard had a great grasp of progesterone. But I dont believe nolva will help unless used from the start, I know from experience once progesterone problems are started it isnt strong enough, letro is the only thing that will help me then. Then that kills my libido, its like chasing your fuc'n tail sometimes.

[WARMachine]

I've known guys who ran nolva with 19nor's and had no issues, but everyone is different, so knowing that nolva can increase the chances of gyno, and there are other compounds that are effective and don't increase the chances of gyno, to me there is no reason to include the nolva.

^^^ X's 2 for me!!!

[Dinosaur]

Big
AR-Hall of Famer/Enforcer of the Rules
I've known guys who ran nolva with 19nor's and had no issues, but everyone is different, so knowing that nolva can increase the chances of gyno, and there are other compounds that are effective and don't increase the chances of gyno, to me there is no reason to include the nolva.

yes, i agree but if i know that letro is more potent than nolva than why go with less effective one. unless i can't get my hand on it or its a way too expensive.

[T_Own]

war and big proved the point better than i could.. same debate went on in another topic.

it does look like a good cycle. a little higher dose would be ok. 400 for deca is a little on the low end, especially with almost 40% being pure ester and no hormone

[Mulciber]

im not done with this one...lol
just getting my shit together, still feel that without the presence of estrogen progesterone will not be a factor.. just want to get all my ducks in a row with proof to back up my claims.. i dont want to give out bad info .. ill take the time and research this throughly(,mostly on bigs/mercs theory) before i post up a bunch of shit.. but ill be back, no matter if im right or wrong ill post it up.. thats how i roll......

[jimmyinkedup]

I seem to do best on 600mgs-800mgs of deca/week but everyone is different. 400 might be great for you. I usually throw in some winstrol (minimal dosages) as a progesterone antagonist when cycling deca or tren. Then you can use any anti estrogen or anti aromatase you want for the test and the winny helps control any progesterone side effects.

[Mulciber]

ok.. so far, speaking with peter/BigCat and jboldman and this is the response from them. will post more but seems im correct for the most part... but there are still a few issues.. seems its actually decas ability to activate estrogen response elements through the androgen receptor.

First thing to point out is that progesterone does not cause estrogenic symptoms in the absence of estrogen, it can at worst only aggravate estrogenic symptoms. So as long as you are using nolvadex, ER is blocked in breast tissue and you progesterone doesn't cause any problems for you. Simple as that.

With nandrolone nolvadex may not always help because nandrolone has been shown to activate estrogen response elements through the androgen receptor. So the only way to stop estrogenic action from nandrolone is to block the AR, which would of course block all gains. so the only solution to this is, if you are prone to estrogenic effects DO NOT USE NANDROLONE. It's a filthy steroid anyway.

letrozole won't help **** all with nandrolone. First of all aromatization is minimal. At 800 mg a week, Oswaldo here at CEM presented his blood results of estradiol to be normal. But nandrolone does produce part of its effects by binding the ER directly (in which case letro won't help, but nolva will) and MOST of its effects through the AR, in which case absolutely nothing will help.

But progesterone is of no concern in the absence of estrogen. So with an AI and Nolva through your cycle as you seem to be doing (which already seems like overkill to me), progesterone has no meaning to you. I would avoid the nandrolone though for its estrogenic effects via the AR.

Peter

..

[Mulciber]

actually this issue has been debated time and time again.seems Macro believes estrogen isnt needed based on the concept of cross binding. but not many feel this is the case.
little something from Nandi awhile back in the debate..

number of papers where the relationship between gynecomastia and progesterone is mentioned. As Big Cat succinctly put it,

"What is being said is basically that progesterone can only cause or aggravate gyno in the presence of circulating estrogen."

Just a couple of quotes from studies I pulled up on medline:

"Plasma progesterone was raised in 36 of 50 (72%) men with liver disease compared with 20 healthy male control subjects. Plasma progesterone was significantly higher in men with non-alcoholic cirrhosis with gynaecomastia than those without, but no similar relationship was found in men with alcoholic fatty change and alcoholic cirrhosis. Hyperprolactinaemia was found in 14% of men with liver disease but levels were unrelated to the presence of gynaecomastia.. Increased circulating levels of progesterone and prolactin alone do not explain the development of gynaecomastia in patients with liver disease, but progesterone may be an additional factor acting in association with the known disturbances of other sex steroids. (1)

Progesterone enhances estrogen's stimulation of mammary gland growth, and our findings suggest that progesterone may play a role in the gynecomastia that occurs in men with hyperthyroidism. (2)

This is all we are saying: progesterone/progestins themselves are not capable of causing gyno (study 1), but enhance the action of estrogen, which is typically elevated in hyperthyroidism (study 2).

"True gynecomastia is a condition in which there is an enlargement of the male breast due to an increase in ductal tissue and periductal stroma.[13]"

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle....2/7002/7001/-1

Estrogen receptor knockout mice manifest significantly impaired ductal development, implying that estrogen is key to ductal development, and by definition (see phrase in quotes above) gynecomastia.

I've cited these references time and time again. This is truly flogging a dead horse. If others wish to continue the discussion please do so. I'm bowing out as everything that can be said has been said many times over.


(1) Gut. 1982 Apr;23(4):276-9.

Progesterone, prolactin, and gynaecomastia in men with liver disease.

Farthing MJ, Green JR, Edwards CR, Dawson AM.


(2) J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2.

High serum progesterone in hyperthyroid men with Graves' disease.

Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K.


__________________

[Mulciber]

well i have more info but gonna see what othere views on this are hopefully with something to show to back up their claims.. just like to see it so i can look into it further.. as of now ill stand on my belief that estrogen is a main initiator of gyno and it must be present for it to occur.. if it binds the ER its considered an estrogen. estrogen needs to be present, and not estradiol or estrone or estriol..if it binds or even cross-binds with the ER, its an estrogen..progesterone is of no concern in the absence of estrogen.. but as stated in an earlier post in some cases neither nolvadex nor letro may be effective.
so imo nolvadex is fine until someone can prove it otherwise..
but i do have an open mind.. i value all opinions ..leads me to do more research and do more learnin.. guess this 6th grade edgeamacation was worth it after all..

[LATS60]

I agree with those that said nolva and 19nors is a bad idea.
There are many clinical studies done on tamoxifen.
It is shown in all relevant studies that (by it's mechanics of action and the pharmacodynamics) that nolva uprates and excites progesterone receptors.
For this reason it's obviously not a good idea.

[locowhiteguy77]

bump

[LATS60]

im not done with this one...lol
just getting my shit together, still feel that without the presence of estrogen progesterone will not be a factor.. just want to get all my ducks in a row with proof to back up my claims.. i dont want to give out bad info .. ill take the time and research this throughly(,mostly on bigs/mercs theory) before i post up a bunch of shit.. but ill be back, no matter if im right or wrong ill post it up.. thats how i roll......

I totally agree with you, you need estrogen. So no estrogen no progestenic issues.

[Mulciber]

my thinking is.. nolvadex's effect on progesterone is irrelevant in terms of gyno.
progesterone will not cause gyno in the absence of estrogen,.if you use nolvadex the ER is blocked in breast tissue so the progesterone cant become a problem anyway.

[LATS60]

my thinking is.. nolvadex's effect on progesterone is irrelevant in terms of gyno.
progesterone will not cause gyno in the absence of estrogen,.if you use nolvadex the ER is blocked in breast tissue so the progesterone cant become a problem anyway.

But what about the progesterone receptors?

[LATS60]

Just to reiterate your point on a lack of estrogen means no progesterone issues.
Estrogen is necessary to induce the progesterone receptors. When no binding hormone is present the carboxyl terminal inhibits transcription. Binding to a hormone induces a structural change that removes the inhibitory action. Progesterone antagonists prevent the structural reconfiguration.
Is this what you wanted to hear bro.

[Mulciber]

lol.. i want to hear anything people have to offer.. dont matter if the opinion differs or not.. thats what i want to see.. throw it all out there.. as long as there is something to back it up.. thats how people learn and how we progress in this game.

what im saying is without the presence of estrogen progesterone wont become a factor and if ER is blocked in breast tissue by using nolvadex there shouldnt be an issue.
so nolvadex should not be off the table but is a viable option. with 19-nor's.. unless its estrogens response elements through the androgen receptor.. in that case neither an AI or nolvadex would work.. guess then you could look into PR blockers which are also mild AR blockers ,,
hell, im just trying to look at this from all angles..

this threads got me doing way to much reading here now.. lol

[LATS60]

what im saying is without the presence of estrogen progesterone wont become a factor and if ER is blocked in breast tissue by using nolvadex there shouldnt be an issue.

Lets just break that down bro, i get worried when you throw the AND word in just like that.
Obviously the red bit is true, thats not debatable.
Now that next bit, you are blocking the estrogen receptors, you say with nolva, what about the free estrogen, we know that nolva isn't going to reduce estrogen anywhere near as much as an AI, so there's still estrogen floating around yes?

[Mulciber]

true, the estrogen is still present.. just dosnt have the ability to bind to the receptor in the breast. but when gyno pops up you want to stop the already present estrogen from binding.. nolvadex will do that and quick.not sure why you would want to start an AI and wait around while it stops more conversion when the estrogen is already there and causing an issue. when you can block it right away.
keep in mind i run an AI during my cycles from the beginning limiting conversion to begin with. but if not running an AI i believe you want to nip the problem at the bud asap.

[LATS60]

true, the estrogen is still present.. just dosnt have the ability to bind to the receptor in the breast. but when gyno pops up you want to stop the already present estrogen from binding.. nolvadex will do that and quick.not sure why you would want to start an AI and wait around while it stops more conversion when the estrogen is already there and causing an issue. when you can block it right away.
keep in mind i run an AI during my cycles from the beginning limiting conversion to begin with. but if not running an AI i believe you want to nip the problem at the bud asap.

I totally agree with everything you say in this post, it's all true.

[LATS60]

Apart from the first part.

[Ashop]

This is going to be my 3rd cycle. First, was test E only 12wks, Second,same with a little dbol for a kickstart. I have been completely off the sauce for 10months. My current stats:
6'3
204pds. (On empty stomach on wake-up)
BF 13.1% (Mostly from ab area-I'm working on it)

I planned on
Test Cyp. 500mg a wk for 12wk.
Deca 400mg-10wk ( Is 300mg better? Never took Deca before)
My PCT is lined up with Nolva/Proviron/6-oxo
Being a mass cycle, My food intake is going to be over 5000cals a day.

I never had any problems with gyno from past cycles. I am worried about the deca and my natty being shutdown. What have been your guy's sides on a testcyp./deca only cycle, and after proper PCT, did your natty go back to normal?
I am not going to use a kickstart, I didn't like the bloat from the dbol, I am happy for the 4-5week wait for kick in. Just looking for overall consense on your deca experience. My goals are 10-20lbs which I believe is attainable with proper eating and hard training. Thanks
Edit/Delete Message

Rule of thumb for DECA is 2mg per pound of bodyweight MINIMUM for best results.

[jimmyinkedup]

mulciber - thanks for all the research. I guess from my personal experience i question the total effectiveness of nolva as an estrogen receptor site blocker. In my earliest cycles i used nolva alone with what i would say was at best marginal anti estrogen effectiveness. I then in my next cycles combined it along with proviron with much better results. eventually moving to armidex and as i said above when cycling deca or tren using winny as a progesterone antagonist. I guess my point is IF nolva is an extremely effective estrogen receptor site blocker then what you discovered seems to be true. I also wonder the ratio of estrogen to progesterone required for progesterone to enhance gyno effects. I think alot of this may come down to the individual ...and how your body responds ...while alot of this is science ...i think we all may respond slightly differently to the same chemicals. It takes time to discover what works best for each of us.

[LATS60]

This is all very well but lets not forget that taking nolva with 19nors is a bad idea, it can excaccerbate progestenic gyno in the prescence of estrogen.

[LATS60]

Mulciber
Member Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 737


ok.. so far, speaking with peter/BigCat and jboldman and this is the response from them. will post more but seems im correct for the most part... but there are still a few issues.. seems its actually decas ability to activate estrogen response elements through the androgen receptor.


Quote:
First thing to point out is that progesterone does not cause estrogenic symptoms in the absence of estrogen, it can at worst only aggravate estrogenic symptoms. So as long as you are using nolvadex, ER is blocked in breast tissue and you progesterone doesn't cause any problems for you. Simple as that.

But it's not as simple as thats. Who wrote this?

[Mulciber]

peter... known on the boards as Big Cat.

[LATS60]

peter... known on the boards as bigcat.

Of course, i used to read everything he wrote, i agree with a lot of it too.
But in this case he's wrong to say that by using nolva that ER is blocked in breast tissue etc,etc.
He seems to be making a fundamental error, there are TWO estrogen receptors in the breast, Estradiol binds well to both these estrogen receptors, ERa and ERb, however nolva being what it is, a SERM will only select and bind to one of them by the very nature of it's mechanics.

[Mulciber]

from what hes saying.. estrogen needs to be present, and not estradiol or estrone or estriol..if it binds or even cross-binds with the ER, its an estrogen.

[LATS60]

from what hes saying.. estrogen needs to be present, and not estradiol or estrone or estriol..if it binds or even cross-binds with the ER, its an estrogen.

Maybe i shouldn't have said estradiol, it's just confusing the issue, the point is that nolva will only block one of the receptors in the breast.