Knowledgeable Member
I just got done w/ fball season, and im gonna go get either a massage, acupuncture, and a chiropractic visit just to see what they all do and such.... i never have had any of these kind of things, however my dad is a D.O. so he taught me some of the basics of chiropratic stuff... neways what order do yall suggest i get them in??
Last edited by Lemonada8; 11-17-2008 at 07:05 AM.
Got Diet? ~VET~ AR Hall of Famer~
if you want to do them all at once, then i would do massage first as chiropractors will normally use a machine massager to start off with anyway to loosen up the muscles, then i would do the chiropractor, then the acupuncture, but why not call all three and see what they recommendOriginally Posted by Lemonada8
some chiros have a massage therapist and/or an accupuncturist that they practice with, this would be perfect as each would report to the other what needed to be done and such
sorry if my typing is bad, broke my finger in the gym today and it hurts like a bitch
Anabolic Member
I go to massage places all the time,,,, very cheap here and there are good ones, can also get 2 naked women giving you a massage at the same time,, great
Serious thou, a good massage would be what i would start with, have had some bad experiences with chiroprators thou so make sure the one you use is a good one, did acupunture too, but to be honest did not feel that much from it
Retired MONITOR
you should go get it rebated on your health fund http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=666695nd
Stupid
Acupuncture is ok, not my favorite...Chiro is ok as well but usually temporary. I like massages, they are my favorite.
Associate Member
which first
chiro speaking here and i usually prefer my patients get massage first so they are relaxed and easier to move!! good move to keep aligned!! will help in all aspects of life!!
Dulce bellum inexpertis
Sounds like a good idea...Just be careful with the chiropractors, they are one step from being a witch doctor. They are ok as far as joints and some injury's are concerned, but thats where it ends as far as their accurate practical knowledge is concerned. The rest of their "theorys" are a joke in the allopathic community.
Giggity Giggity Giggty!
Source of information? Been to a witchdoctor and then a chiropractor to compare? Why did you go to a witchdoctor anyway? Generalization isn't the best way to practice living.
Go to a Chiropractor just like you would go to a family doctor, lawyer, barber, contractor, mechanic...etc. By that I mean, do your research! Get good referral from someone you trust. Find out witch school they went to! You wouldn't walk into brain surgery without knowing something about your doctor nor would you build a home without knowing something about your builder.
Last edited by StoneGRMI; 11-18-2008 at 07:04 PM.
Dulce bellum inexpertis
I dont need a source of information to back up an opinion. I was obviously taking a jab at chiropractors. You dont goto a chiropractor like you would a doctor or a lawyer. An MD/DO and JD are legitimate professions with a long standing proven track record. I have used chiropractors in the past, and they are great if you have a minor injury to a joint/muscle, but they are good for little more then that. If you have investigated the full theory of chiropractic, like using chiropractic to treat/cure things other than joint/muscle injury's, it will become appearent to you just how out there their "profession" is. There are only a handful of chiropractic schools in the United States, and not a single one is affiliated with a state or private university, so what does that tell you?
Senior Member
Sorry had to throw in my two cents here as I am going to a chiropractic college. I don't really think that our "theory" is that wacky. We operate on the idea that the body heals itself. The majority of what we do is injury work, I will agree with you there. The theory of chiropractic says that your body will tell you what it needs, so if you are in pain...there is an underlying problem causing that pain. If your check engine light came on in your vehicle, would you simply put a sticky note over it (medication) or would you open up the hood and figure out what the problem is? Chiropractic is about finding the root of certain problems and fixing them, and its not always through adjustment and there are times when referral is warranted because it just is simply not a chiropractic case. But Chiropractic has been around for over 100 years, and has healed many. There are documented cases (see Good Morning America roughly 8 months ago) with chiropractic adjustments significantly lowering blood pressure for time periods exceeding 8 weeks. I also don't think it is fair to say we lack accurate practical knowledge. To become a chiropractor you are looking at 7 years of college, the last 3 being the actual chiropractic graduate schooling, where you take as many as 30 hours a trimester and never fewer than 28. This amounts to me being at school Mon-Fri from 7 am to 5 pm. We take numerous courses in Pathology, Microbiology, Neurology, Laboratory Diagnosis, and Bio Chemistry as well as our Anatomy, Physiology, Radiology, and Adjusting courses. Many of said courses are taught by Medical Doctors. We take both national and state board examinations as do Medical doctors, and must recieve numerous hours per year of continuing education. Parker College of Chiropractic has its own research facility but is also affiliated with both Harvard and Yale's reasearch institutes. If you have any questions I would be glad to answer them, just like to clear up some of the ignorance out there regarding chiropractic..
Associate Member
thanks for that generalization!!!! i am a chiro. and you are rude. you are most likely basing your knowledge of chiro. on a bad experience. please dont judge a whole profession from a few experiences you have had.
Associate Member
i think you are definitely have roots in the allopathic profession somewhere. just because we are not tied to a university does not mean that schools aren't legit. all chiro. schools in the us are accredited by goverment boards. all chiropractors take certification boards!!! actually four of them before licensing!!! i guess in your head since we don't drug society and kill people in surgery we are not legit. chiros malpractice insurance for the year is what md/do's pay per month!!!!!!!!! HMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!! That says a lot to me!!! we dont kill or maime people!!!!
Dulce bellum inexpertis
Your schools are for profit institutions. After HEAL was established, wasn't it Palmer or Life U that tripled their tuition in a short time period, because they knew studets could pay more. Additionally, what legitimate medical practice needs to use high pressure sales tactics to keep its customers coming back(alot of DC offices do this). I'll give credit where credit is due, it is a great first step before pursuing things like surgery or constant medication for an injury, and insurance companies have begun to cover some chiropractic. However, if it is such a legitimate and great profession, why are DC students some of the most indebted under HEAL and the worst in defaulting on thier loans?
http://www.scienceblog.com/community...A/hhs1124.html
The loans are guaranteed by the federal government -- meaning the federal government must pay the banks if students default.
Chiropractic students have the poorest record of payments, and the five schools with the largest number of defaulters are chiropractic schools.
Cleveland Chiropractic School has $4million plus dollars in default...
http://www.defaulteddocs.dhhs.gov/school.asp?PAGE=2
Last edited by thegodfather; 11-25-2008 at 01:48 PM.
Senior Member
Chiropractic is unlike any other Doctor in that we are pretty much running our own business. We are entreprenuers, we are struggling through ignorance and lies and that is why we have to market ourselves and get the message out about what chiropractic really is. This attributes to a higher level of loan defaults. Until recently chiropractors were not integrated in hospitals, that has since changed and we are in many hospitals and every VA hospital. Until recently chiropractors were not a part of the government funding that will pay your loans for you if you open practice in an area in need of doctors..that has recently changed as well, until recently chiropractors were not integrated into military care..which has since changed as well. In the past it has always been much like any other entreprenuer...open your doors and pray for success. That is slowly beginning to change, and I believe you will see default rates decline because of it. The chiropractic college I attend has less than 1% default rate. I am assuming Cleveland Chiropractic's tuition is much like my own (rediculous) and $4 million sounds like a lot of money until you realize that each student while in chiropractic college earns upwards of 150,000 dollars of debt. Assuming they graduate around 300 chiropractors a year, much as my college does, we are talking about 45 million dollars a year in loans. $4 million all together is a very small percentage. With all the positive publicity going on about chiropractic (the segment on good morning america about lowering blood pressure, the segment on the news about the blind man who can now see after chiropractic adjustments, etc) I expect the future of chiropractic to be very bright.
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
They default because students are not taught how to run a business. That is were all the trouble lies. Over 60% of chiropractors have their own clinics. It is hard to run a practice and a lot of people just dont have the talent to do it. Just as many MD's would default to if they tried to open their own clinic instead of joining a medical group.
You should look up Wilkes vs AMA and you will see where the residual allopathic bias is coming from.
The best thing that every happened to me is when my orthopedist sent me to a Chiropractor to help with my Chronic ankle sprains. She knew she couldnt help me after her treating me and two broken legs later. Suddenly with the right treatments I havent had an ankle sprain in five years.
This all coming from someone with a biomedical background mind you.
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
Oh I just want to say, that While finishing my dissertation I referenced several chiropractic papers on exercise and adjustments and its effects on vestibular control and were pretty good papers.
Knowledgeable Member
damn some allopathic heat :P... neways....
i think that people need to keep in mind the situation... people shouldnt go to a chiro for anything other than muscle and joint problems or advised to by doctors... yes adjustments can be made to help blood pressure and such but thats it... so id have to agree w/ godfather, but minus the witchdoctor part.... i would never go to a chiropactor other than musclo/skeletal issues
but im not gonna be a allopathic doc... imma be a DO
Last edited by Lemonada8; 11-25-2008 at 07:57 PM.
Senior Member
are u serious? u r going to be a d.o.? u realize that adjusting used to be the entire foundation before d.o.s sold out to the medical model and u say that they should only be used in the presence of pain? r u currently in school? u should know the effects that an adjustment can have on the vestibular system, on your sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system, I mean we can break it on down to the separate pathways and argue the issue if you would like. if chiropractic lowers blood pressure, does that in itself not show you that an adjustment directly affects the nervous system causing vaso-dialation...and if we are stimulating the nervous system are we not in turn stimulating the immune system being as the two are directly related? chiropractic has many benefits. many of which are proven by research done by medical doctors. you don't need a doctors referral to see a chiropractor..just find a chiropractor that specializes in neurology or nutrition or whatever it is u r looking for help with...its much cheaper and has been proven to be just as efficient in many...many cases. sorry for the rant, but I hate when people give advice about visiting a chiropractor when they know nothing about the profession. I'm not saying that chiropractic is a cure all..it is far from it...but so is medicine..
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
Most DO's are just as shunned by MD's as they are by Chiro's. There is no difference in education other than they can administer drugs. They never wanted to be part of Medicine but where forced by the AMA in order for the AMA to regulate competition. Chiropractic was almost sucked in to, but a few of the founders were to strong willed or stubborn to let that happen.
Dulce bellum inexpertis
The majority of students who choose to matriculate into osteopathic schools do not do so because they believe in the philosophy what so ever. The majority who matriculate do so because either their cGPA/sGPA or MCAT scores are not high enough to matriculate into an allopathic school. It has become the second to last resort, the Caribbean being the very last resort for people who want to become practicing physicians.
A very short portion of the cirriculum is even devoted to OMM, and many more D.O.'s are specializing than before. The bias that MuscleScience is talking about is almost non-existent in the North East, as far as I am concerned. I know a DO who is a neurosurgeon, so go figure. Of course, many students will talk the talk at interviews and rave about how badly they want to go into primary care (bulllllllshit), and when it comes time for the Match they are going after derm,plastics,and radiology...lol
I really enjoy your perspective RockyX. I have certainly had many unpleasent experiences with multiple chiropractors who came off more like used car salesmen than medical professionals. I think that your profession would be benefitted greatly if you could get rid of the schools being for profit institutions. You pointed out the unique natur of chiropractic and having to go out on your own. But you must also realise that you have no lobby to control graduation rates, so your schools are essentially creating a much larger supply than any demand that exists. That is one thing that the AMA has been instrumental in doing, controlling accredidation to make sure the supply of physicians never outpaced demand. They are loosening up now and have accredited several schools this year because there is a huge primary care gap, and we're filling about 20% of our residency slots with FMGs. So as long as your schools remain for profit institutions I dont see the problem getting any better.
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
Actually all chiro schools in order to be accredited are not for profit institutions.
Senior Member
I can't speak for other schools bcuz I haven't done the research but the college I attend is non-profit. we don't have any sort of regulation or guidelines as far as how many to graduate, true, but I don't believe it is to the point where that is needed yet..my entire college has only 1000 students or so at any given time...many of whom will not make it through the program. again I can't speak on behalf of other schools but I know that since I have attended my college, the prerequisites for entrance has tightened up, gpa requirements have tightened up, they are looking into implementing CCATS, school policies regarding attendance have tightened up...I honestly believe things are changing for the better. I'm sorry that u have had bad experiences with chiros..there are bad D.C.s out there the same as there are bad M.D.s...I think the problem is more that our field is not unified in the way that we treat our patients. it sounds like to me that you would need a chiro that is willing to use a variety of different modalities rather than banking on the adjustment...and those docs are everywhere...I think the problem lies in when people find themselves in offices of docs who are stuck on only adjusting and only using a certain technique...or they find their way into the office of a doc that uses NET or something that uses muscle testing to find emotions that are causing weakness in your body...this stuff is off the wall to even me...its not taught in schools but some docs find their way to it and make us look like witch doctors..the important thing is to find a good D.C. that fits how u wish to be treated. the sales pitches are out there...some people market that way...I think it takes away credibility. I would never go to a dr. that tried to sell me...cuz a good doc wouldn't have to.
Banned
If we had a national health are system, cash wouldn't rule everything around this MFer. Need for additional MDs would rise, standards would skyrocket, and knowing our undefined faculty, we'd find a way to incorporate witchcraft into our animalistic regime of celestial empiricism.
Senior Member
dude that made me wanna slit my wrists a little bit lol
Dulce bellum inexpertis
Why are you so eager to acquiesce your healthcare decisions to big government and bureaucrats? Do you think they are competent enough to make those decisions, and do you think they have your best interests in mind?
Systems that have single payor healthcare are not about quality, they are about keeping costs down. Inevitably these systems devolve into rationing of care. You are told what procedures you can and cannot get, at the governments discretion. In addition, as can be seen in Canada and Britain, the most highly skilled doctors decide to opt out of taking the government reimbursements and instead work for cash. These leads to 2 tiers of healthcare, the first being the most highly skilled physicians working for the rich and well to do, and the second being the government reimbursed physicians taking care of the rest of us. The only way to avoid such a problem would be to prohibit doctors from opting out of the system and offering their services for cash. That would be the antithesis to a free society, by limiting the freedoms of service persons. I could name a million reasons why what you propose is garbage, and would lead to a much lower quality of care. You can cite statistics and rankings from WHO which will say otherwise, and say those countries with nationalized healthcare are far ahead of us. The WHO is highly politicized group with its own hidden agenda, and its important to take their information with a grain of salt, they are far from being an objective source of information....
Also to RockyX, I apologize for not doing more research and knowing that your schools are in fact non-profits. I certainly have a little more respect for your profession after talking to you and finding out that you guys are in fact very professiona and intelligent. I hope that you can overcome the stigma associated with the profession. You noted that many people in your class will not finish the program. That is unfortunate, and I think it's highly unethical for chiro schools to accept people who may or may not finish. Allopathic/Osteopathic schools have an almost 99% graduation rate for those who matriculate, it is VERY hard to fail out of med school. This is for good reason, because after you are into med school 1-2 years, you are $100,000 in debt, and will be hard pressed to pay off those kind of loans in any other profession. Once you start med school, you had damn well better finish or live like a pauper for the greater portion of your life...The high numbers of indebted chiro's is disturbing to me, I feel very bad for those students who are in such high debt, they are definately fighting an uphill battle. I wish you guys the best of luck in the future...
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
All Chiropractic schools had to make the move to non-profit institutions in-order to remain in good standing with the accreditation boards many years ago. Along with other changes, suffice to say even if a particular college has its own philosphy they have to still follow the national guidelines set upon the boards governing body.
Banned
Go ahead and name a million... if you want to waste your time. My point was, it's sad even M.D.s only really care about money, in our "free society". Where are the people that really care?
The advancement of our faculties is undefined and infinite! We'll get there one day!
Senior Member
Hey bro, I greatly appreciate it, one of the greatest problems facing chiropractic today is that people just don't know a lot about it, so thats why my goal is educate anyone with any questions or misconceptions. As chiropractors we can only blame this amount of misunderstanding on ourselves..chiropractors as a whole do a TERRIBLE job at educating people about our profession. I agree it is unfortunate that many will not graduate, and it is kind of shitty to me. Where as you stated that Med schools had such stringent entry requirements, they ensured that the students they got were bright enough and driven enough to pass the program, until VERY recently, it seemed that Chiropractic Colleges would accept you, take your money, and then weed out the weak. The process began very early. Tri I for us is pretty basic classes (Fundamentals of Diagnostic Imaging, Systemic Anatomy, Embryology, Histology, Business, Philosophy, and on other I'm forgetting lol) I started with a class of 93..after tri I we has lost nearly 20 people. Mind you by the end of tri I you are around 20,000 in debt. Fewer fell by Tri II and Tri VI just about every that is there will make it. It was horrible, but as I stated before, that is finally changing. Anywho bro, It was great to talk and debate and thanks for the good wishes! If you have any questions ever, just drop me a PM.
Retired "hall of famer/elite powerlifter"
a lot of great posts. godfather, very knowledgeable on the healthcare system. glad to see your views on the chiro community are more on the positive. we all arent con artists and whacked out nut jobs who believe we can walk on water and heal every disease in the world. most of us are very level headed and follow more of a medical model than a pseudo homeopathic model. i myself market to no individuals by using any kind of pressure techniques. 90% of my patients come form lawyer or D.O. referrals or word of mouth. the other 10% is just from advertisement
Knowledgeable Member
people dont trust doctors because they can do 'research' on their own and go in and tell the doctor what they need, and if the doctor doesnt agree u can get a 2nd opinion... and if the 2nd doc gives u the drug, who r u gonna go to next time? the one who didnt think u needed it or the one who gave it to you? people dont trust doctors anymore like they used to, and visits get money... and docs still need to live so if they give out more meds then they feel like they should but the get the extra revenue why not do it? People think they know more than doctors all the time, how many times do peopel actually finish their scripts? then they come in a while later and wonder why its back... doctors are more concerned about money now adays because if they dont please the consumer (patient), they lose business....
chiros dont have to worry about that because they cannot prescribe meds, so they have to sell their works in other ways... in this way chiros are better off in the business world because they just sell what they do in their hour or however long the appt is...
now adays its all about how you sell yourself...
and yes i want to be a do because i do believe in some of the chiro methods with the musclo/skeletal system... and the whole MD vs DO thing, that is rarely found in todays times and i think its only prevelent in the southwest part of the states... everywhere else noone really cares anymore....
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
In a couple states now Chiro's can prescribe meds.
Knowledgeable Member
oh really? wow..... i cant say that i agree with that...
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
I dont think a lot of chiro's do either. From what I understand though they have to do an additional 100 hours of certification training. It kind of goes against the whole chiropractic paradigm but some of the more progressive Docs see it as a way of growing the profession I guess.
Senior Member
hell in some states chiros can do minor surgeries. most of us however get into chiro school to avoid meds and surgeries. if I wanted to do that stuff I could just take an extra year of clinical rotations and online courses and become a nurse practitioner...and there are several chiros going that route. I will choose to stick more to adjustments, exercise programs, rehab and nutrition...
Knowledgeable Member
i guess its like a dual-career thing then huh? i can see the meds if its like ibuprofen and such... like athletic trainers can do... and now they can do surgeries? wow... what minor surgries that they can do?
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
minor hand and foot surgeries I think.
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
This is a break down of Chiropractic education vs that of Med school.
http://www.chiropracticresearch.org/...oeduaction.htm
Dulce bellum inexpertis
Well I have a couple of axe's to grind, but not with Chiro. Just with some other things brought up in this thread...This new trend with other avenues of healthcare wanting prescription rights...It seems these days, that everyone wants to be the "Doctor" without going to medical school and doing a long residency. NPs, CRNAs, PA's,etc, etc...There is a reason that medical school is 4 years long and most residency+fellowship programs are 4 years minimum, with 7 years for surgical residencies. There is an abundance of information a person must know off the top of their heads in order to perform these duties. Of course, with the specialization of labor, and the unions of these various professions, they will be pushing for a bigger piece of the market.
One of the things that IRKS the shit out of me to no end is that DNP's are pushing to be called "Doctor" in a clinical setting. For those unaware, a DNP has a Doctorate of Nurse Practioner, essentially a PhD in NP.
The law in the majority of the states is VERY VERY CLEAR! The only person who is to be addressed as "DOCTOR" in a hospital/clinical setting (aside from private practice chiro offices), are: MD/DO, DPM, DDS/DMD. Other then that, it is FRAUD to present yourself as a "DOCTOR" if you are inside of a hospital. If you are however in a teaching setting, and you posess some sort of PhD then of course it is ok to be expected to be addressed by your proper title. But DNPs, DC's, etc have no business being addressed as a "Doctor" within a hospital. In Pennsylvania it is a serious crime.
Even more aggrivating, is the CRNA's who think they can perform the job of an Anesthesiologist better then an Anesthesiologist. Hospitals are cutting the number that they employ and employing many more CRNA's under the supervision of board certified Anesthesiologists. To think that the patient is getting the same level of care and expertise is LAUGHABLE! Oh well, that was my rant on that topic...
I need to shoot one of you chiro's a PM, I have a question, medically related...
Anabolic Member
do a massage for 1hr with a secret and happy ending. LOL
Senior Member
I'm not sure how true that is bro..at least regarding DCs....chiropractors are on staff in a number of hospitals now..and pretty much every VA hospital...and every time I've seen a one in a hospital setting..they were always referred to as doctor.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote