HCG monotherapy!

[Sworder]

What are your thoughts on it?

To start it off even thought the thread title is self-explanatory to what the goal and process is. To supply men whom are secondary with hCG to reach optimal testosterone levels.

About 750-1200IUs/week is a typical dose for the protocol. Would this be preferable to testosterone injections? Should this be tried before resorting to testosterone gels/testosterone injections?

[lovbyts]

This is from gdivine.
Mono HCG therapy can and will work but it all depends if you are primary or secondary.
If your LH is low causing your low test HCG can cause you to produce more natural test

This may help you understand the difference between primary and secondary. If you're secondary then HCG should be of help assuming you are still producing albeit as lower volumes due to low LH and FSH. And welcome to the community you will find great guys here, lots of support and education

Hypogonadism in a man refers to a decrease in one or both of the two major functions of the testes: sperm production and testosterone production. These abnormalities usually result from disease of the testes (primary hypogonadism) or disease of the pituitary or hypothalamus (secondary hypogonadism). In occasional cases, however, a defect in the ability to respond to testosterone is the cause of hypogonadism. (See "Diagnosis and treatment of disorders of the androgen receptor" and "Steroid 5-alpha-reductase 2 deficiency".)

The distinction between primary and secondary hypogonadism is made by measurement of the serum concentrations of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH):

•The patient has primary hypogonadism if the serum testosterone concentration and the sperm count are below normal and the serum LH and FSH concentrations are above normal.
•The patient has secondary hypogonadism if the serum testosterone concentration and the sperm count are subnormal and the serum LH and FSH concentrations are normal or reduced.

I'm still under the impression/understanding that this is ONLY if you are not introducing another form of test/tren/deca hormone into your body that will shut down your natural production. I dont think HCG will override your body being shut down, only boost it if its still producing.

[TennTarheel]

That was my understanding. If one is Primary, then they already have adequate amounts of LH but are still not producing ample Test, so HCG will not be very beneficial. (At least in terms of test production)

[torrential]

Two months in and it's working for me, results below.

There are many opinions on this. Although there are clear benefits to introducing exogenous T I think all can agree that in general it can be less disruptive to stimulate the body's own production of T via the natural hormonal and enzymatic pathways involved. ("Natural" - an odd word to use for poking with a powder from pregnant female's pee, but there it is anyway.) Depending on your personal situation and goals, HCG mono can be a good place to start.

• Started HCG mono 8/27/12 1000IU every three days.
• Supplementing 50mg Preg sublingual + vits, mins.

Baseline labs are from 8/16, latest labs from 10/25/12

• Total T was 394 now 742 change + 88%
• Free T was 81.3 now 186.3 change + 229%
• Estradiol was 35 (regular) now 48 (Ultra) + 37%. I'm on it.
• SHBG not tested at baseline now 19

[jasondd1]

Is 2500 iu's a week doable long term? I have been debating trying clomid and HCG myself. 1,000 iu every 3 days seems unsustainable to me?

[kelkel]

I think every avenue should be explored prior to launching into TRT. I also don't think doses have to be quite as high as discussed above. As with Test it should be a low start and titrate based on labs. I think it's also prudent to then titrate down and see if your own production will kick in or if you return to baseline. IMO that is the point, trying to re-start your system.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2913032/

@ Sworder. No marmosets in this one.



@ Torrential: Great results! Happy for you. On your next BW be sure to check your DHEA-S level. It's part of your hormone pathways and is very important. A little micronized (25mg) can go a long way and assist in a multitude of ways. Test your level first though. Too much is not a good thing. Check D3 (25-Hydroxy) level as well. It will improve your Free T. Arguably the most important vitamin, actually a hormone, you can take.

kel

ps: welcome to the forum! Read the stickies!

[torrential]

kelkel,

Thanks! So far, so good. I may start a thread. There are aspects of my health and therapy plan(s) that I could use more eyes on.

OP and all,

Is there research or a report out there that looks at Leydig cell desensitization due to HCG in the doses we're talking about here? Forgive my ignorance and perhaps poor search skills but in two months of looking I've not found anything of the sort. We know that some highly respected professional and non-pro but knowledgeable practitioners feel it could be a problem for some guys so surely there must be some evidence. I've not even seen an individual story or anecdote about use of HCG for HRT where the effects fade or the dosage requirements increase.

[kelkel]

None whatsoever according to Dr. Scally. He does not feel it's possible in doses you are talking about. Think about the use of HCG for fertility where they use 5K to 10K!

[TennTarheel]

But the use of hcg for fertility is only done in short spurts from what I've gathered.

[Sworder]

I'm still under the impression/understanding that this is ONLY if you are not introducing another form of test/tren/deca hormone into your body that will shut down your natural production. I dont think HCG will override your body being shut down, only boost it if its still producing.

Yes, as I specified in the original post. It only applies to patients whom are secondary. I don't think it would be very beneficial with hCG monotherapy for somebody who is primary

Your understanding of how hCG and the HPTA works is severely misunderstood. I don't have the time to explain it at the moment hopefully somebody else has the time to. Main point: HCG stimulates testosterone production regardless of any other androgens are present or not. It is acting like LH and forcing the testicles to produce, if they are able to. Androgens shut down the hypothalamus and pituitary down, not the testicles. The testicles are shutdown in a secondary action so to speak.

[Sworder]

I think every avenue should be explored prior to launching into TRT. I also don't think doses have to be quite as high as discussed above. As with Test it should be a low start and titrate based on labs. I think it's also prudent to then titrate down and see if your own production will kick in or if you return to baseline. IMO that is the point, trying to re-start your system.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2913032/

@ Sworder. No marmosets in this one.

I liked the marmosets.

I know a couple guys who are running hCG mono. Their doses and tT are as follows:

400 IU HCG x3/week
tT 778 ng/dL

400 IU HCG x3/week
tT 855 ng/dl

I have seen a lot higher doses being run as well, and lower.

Thanks for taking the time to post Kelkel. Your posts are very detailed and straight to the point, most of the time people should be paying you for your consultation.

[JohnnyVegas]

Good thread. I wish I knew if I was primary or secondary. My doctor just ran levels and started me on Test shots.

[TennTarheel]

Another thing that would bug me is something I've seen in reports a few times. I think one of the big docs actually said that while hcg may get levels up similar to Test therapy, they didn't have as many positive effects as the Test group. That's the very dumbed down version, but I know I've seen it. Anyone else seen this?? Maybe it was Crisler

[Brohim]

I konw of a guy who runs HCG mono 600iu every 3.5 day's and TT 850. He says any higher and it converts to much e2 and he has to use an AI. He used up to 5,000iu a week and T levels as high as 1400 never had desensitize issue and used for 2 years straight.

[steroid.com 1]

High dosage amounts of HCG say >500iu daily can increase E2.

What's More, it increases intratesticular aromatization which an AI is largely ineffective in controlling.

This should be known as well.

[TennTarheel]

I konw of a guy who runs HCG mono 600iu every 3.5 day's and TT 850. He says any higher and it converts to much e2 and he has to use an AI. He used up to 5,000iu a week and T levels as high as 1400 never had desensitize issue and used for 2 years straight.

How are his numbers now?

[Sworder]

High dosage amounts of HCG say >500iu daily can increase E2.

What's More, it increases intratesticular aromatization which an AI is largely ineffective in controlling.

This should be known as well.

Hello Sir
What would the differences between LH stimulated testosterone production and hCG induced production as far as aroma goes? I got a feeling the answer is nooooooooot muuuuuuch.

[Brohim]

How are his numbers now?

\


His TT is 850-900

[Sworder]

\
His TT is 850-900

And he is probably using an AI because he is above his range(personal, not the one given by a lab)

Misread, thought he was starting on injections for some reason. Sorry bra <- New word I learned from Q&A it means bro or brother

[steroid.com 1]

There are just so many leydig cell receptors a man has and that's that so if 250 iu does it for you everything in a larger dose after that is just a waste...there's a line of demarcation somewhere in there.

Keep in mind that receptor activity is changing all the time as part of the homeostasis mechanism.

[lovbyts]

Yes, as I specified in the original post. It only applies to patients whom are secondary. I don't think it would be very beneficial with hCG monotherapy for somebody who is primary

Your understanding of how hCG and the HPTA works is severely misunderstood. I don't have the time to explain it at the moment hopefully somebody else has the time to. Main point: HCG stimulates testosterone production regardless of any other androgens are present or not. It is acting like LH and forcing the testicles to produce, if they are able to. Androgens shut down the hypothalamus and pituitary down, not the testicles. The testicles are shutdown in a secondary action so to speak.

The problem is you are mixing apples and oranges. Your original post is misleading 2 most everyone because they do not realize you are not talking about hrt alone but you are talking about using HCG to boost your natural test levels while at the same time supplementing it or adding substances like tren and Decca. Leaving out little details like that makes a big difference

[jasondd1]

Would combing clomid to hcg mono therapy help? Ive asked this before but never got a response. I have seen both talked about as alternatives to HRT but not much about them used together.

[TennTarheel]

The problem is you are mixing apples and oranges. Your original post is misleading 2 most everyone because they do not realize you are not talking about hrt alone but you are talking about using HCG to boost your natural test levels while at the same time supplementing it or adding substances like tren and Decca. Leaving out little details like that makes a big difference

I didn't find it to be misleading. The OP is talking about using HCG WITHOUT other exogenous anabolics. I don't think he ever mentioned using Tren or deca, because that would defeat the purpose of why he made the thread. And HCG doesn't override the other substance if you were to add one, like Test, however it works along with it to increase TT. That's why people who add HCG to their HRT protocol of Test, see an increase in TT numbers.

[steroid.com 1]

Well, if Sworder is adding in Tren or Decca and didn't state it in the OP than lovbyts is correct; it may have been unintentionally misleading.

If Sworder is not talking about coadministration with other supplements than we're on point.

Secondary Hypogonadal men who add HCG to their Testosterone protocols are not using it primarily to increase endogenous testosterone but rather to keep their testicles functioning and HPTA intact.

[steroid.com 1]

Hello Sir
What would the differences between LH stimulated testosterone production and hCG induced production as far as aroma goes? I got a feeling the answer is nooooooooot muuuuuuch.

It can stimulate big differences.

A man who is otherwise healthy will produce LH in very low pulsitative doses as needed throughout the day to regulate androgen serum levels.

When a man is Secondary Hypogonadal and has to introduce HCG to stimulate the testes to function properly when on a TRT protocol he will never be able to achieve the same balance that he operates at physiologically. In other words, LH is produced when needed as need in very small doses thought the course of a mans day.

Typically, we inject HCG two, three or four times a week for the most part in much larger doses at point of injection than the healthy body would ever produce at one given time...we can't replicate the biological processes.

So, if a man injects 3000iu of HCG a week for 18 weeks that would be far more than the healthy body would ever need and the resulting increase in intratesticular E2 as a byproduct.

[lovbyts]

I didn't find it to be misleading. The OP is talking about using HCG WITHOUT other exogenous anabolics. I don't think he ever mentioned using Tren or deca, because that would defeat the purpose of why he made the thread. And HCG doesn't override the other substance if you were to add one, like Test, however it works along with it to increase TT. That's why people who add HCG to their HRT protocol of Test, see an increase in TT numbers.

Thats only becaue you have not read his numerous other post on the subject and that is why I am calling it out as being misleading because I know ( as well as Marcus and many other) what he is trying to justify.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t#.UKP9nmfdvDV

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...d#.UKP-nmfdvDV

There are many other examples where he is trying to say this is the way to go, no test needed.

[steroid.com 1]

...got it!

[TennTarheel]

There are some uber ridiculous unsubstantiated arguments going on in those threads. Wow. Now I understand....

Those guys must be talking about some mythical Tren that has zero effect on ED, Gyno, etc

[steroid.com 1]

^^^^Now you know why this board is so much different than the rest in here..not better or worse...just different.

You figure it out

[Sworder]

What are your thoughts on it?

To start it off even thought the thread title is self-explanatory to what the goal and process is. To supply men whom are secondary with hCG to reach optimal testosterone levels.

About 750-1200IUs/week is a typical dose for the protocol. Would this be preferable to testosterone injections? Should this be tried before resorting to testosterone gels/testosterone injections?

The problem is you are mixing apples and oranges. Your original post is misleading 2 most everyone because they do not realize you are not talking about hrt alone but you are talking about using HCG to boost your natural test levels while at the same time supplementing it or adding substances like tren and Decca. Leaving out little details like that makes a big difference

The problem is that you are mixing up threads and your knowledge on this matter is severely lacking. I have already pointed this out to you and corrected you about your assumption "hcg only boosting natural production"; that is not the way it works. You didn't seem to take note that your basic understanding of hCG is wrong and instead of spending further time to research, you choose to contribute to the thread only by yelling "look guys what he said in ANOTHER thread" which is irrelevant to this one. TennTarheel has corrected you as well, are you going to take note at this point? I quoted myself and underlined the questions I posed in my original post. Nowhere in there is information which I would use for a cycle.

To further the OTHER thread. In a cycle, testosterone isn't needed. If you would include hCG in a cycle you ARE getting testosterone though. The two things you need in a cycle is androgen receptor activity and some estrogen conversion. Dianabol and trenbolone can be used as sole androgens in a cycle. It works just fine. If you do not believe me, which I know you don't. But I also think you are confused at the basic anabolic androgenic pharmacology and how to incorporate it to produce an anabolic effect in your body while maintaining mental and libido. So.... Instead of keeping on yelling around, find somebody whom you feel is knowledgeable, ask them these two questions:

What does testosterone do in the body which makes it crucial?

The answer is aromatase and androgen receptor stimulation. DHT conversion isn't needed and metabolites specific to testosterone are not needed either. There are tons of androgens that can replace the functions testosterone fills at the receptor level.

You can ask if there is a "testosterone" specific receptor as well. The answer is no, and remember this is in regards to a cycle.

The title of this thread is HCG monotherapy and we are in the HRT forum.

If you do not have anything to contribute to this thread, very slowly, put your hands in the air and walk away from the computer. This post directed towards you is off-topic and about cycling, not what this thread is about. Thanks, I hope we are done.

It can stimulate big differences.
A man who is otherwise healthy will produce LH in very low pulsitative doses as needed throughout the day to regulate androgen serum levels.
When a man is Secondary Hypogonadal and has to introduce HCG to stimulate the testes to function properly when on a TRT protocol he will never be able to achieve the same balance that he operates at physiologically. In other words, LH is produced when needed as need in very small doses thought the course of a mans day.
Typically, we inject HCG two, three or four times a week for the most part in much larger doses at point of injection than the healthy body would ever produce at one given time...we can't replicate the biological processes.
So, if a man injects 3000iu of HCG a week for 18 weeks that would be far more than the healthy body would ever need and the resulting increase in intratesticular E2 as a byproduct.

Remember we are not talking about injecting hCG to maintain testicular function, it is to mimic LH. Yes, your example of the pulsatile nature of biological process was duly noted. Unfortunately it is disregarded because testosterone is pulsatile also and exogenous administration doesn't result in a much lower tT:e2 ratio than natural production would. Do you disagree?

3000iu is too high of a dose. I am member of another forum(not Meso) in which hCG monotherapy is popular. They are very conservative and if I would post up there saying that they should switch to 200mg Testosterone Cypionate 1000iu hCG and 1-2mg Arimidex/week they would look at me "ARE YOU STUPID?".

Now as I was asking in my original post and I wish to add I am a fan of Dr. Gordon's normal dose testosterone which doesn't require an AI. Do you think it would be preferable to achieve say 600ng/dl with hCG or 600ng/dl with testosterone cypionate?

There are some uber ridiculous unsubstantiated arguments going on in those threads. Wow. Now I understand....

Those guys must be talking about some mythical Tren that has zero effect on ED, Gyno, etc

Tren doesn't aromatase and has no way to cause gyno. Trenbolone works fine for libido and that has been proven when they used it for androgen replacement therapy. You probably have experienced these problems, but your "controlled study with only one variable" probably went wrong somewhere.

[steroid.com 1]

You can't compare HCG synthesise to Testosterone Cyp as its imbedded in a long ester and takes time to be cleaved where HCG does not...sort of apple and orange kind of thing.

Digging the debate however.

[Sworder]

I am not comparing them. They are apples and oranges and I am asking which one do you want to eat to get your serving of fruit, provided that they both equal 1 serving

[lovbyts]

But they don't both equal one serving except to you. I won't continue to argue or beat a dead horse so to speak except to make other clear to others what your agenda is like I did here.

[Sworder]

The bloodwork of 50+ patients would disagree. But thanks for your insight Lovbyts, I appreciate it.

[Sworder]

Gdevine, I forgot to ask, why do you mention intra-testicular E2? Who cares about that?