Debating two approaches for my first cycle - Would LOVE input..

[nussnussbaby]

Hello all,

***Background Information - skip if not interested***: I'm 26 years old. I've been a member of the board for 2 or 3 months now, I've read all the stickies, and I've gathered a lot of important information here through threads I've started, and through a lot of outside research as well. I've been weight training for sports since I was about 13, and in serious physique training for about the last year and a half (current one-rep max's: bench press-450lbs; squat-490lbs; deadlift-480lbs; chin-up-+115lbs). I believe my training and nutrition programs are the absolute best on the planet, and my discipline, consistency and intensity with both is first-rate.

***Important Information***: I'm 5'7". The picture I've included is 3 or so months old, me at about 175-180lbs, 10-ish%bf. I've been bulking since then ~ focusing on strength and muscle gains ~ and I'm now at about 185-190lbs, 15-ish%bf. My ultimate goal is to be about 170lbs and as close to 6%bf as possible (please don't debate me on that; it's what I prefer). There are two approaches I am considering..

#1)
I'll slow-cut (about 1lb/wk) down to about 165 - - hoping to maintain strength, and as much muscle mass as possible. Then from there I'll begin this site's recommended first cycle - - hoping to gain about 5lbs of almost pure muscle.

#2)
I'll slow-cut (about 1lb/wk) down to about 170 - - hoping to maintain strength, and as much muscle mass as possible. Then from there I'll begin this site's recommended first cycle - - hoping to maintain overall weight (170lbs) while transforming a significant amount body fat into muscle mass (i.e. a re-comp cycle).



**The TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure ~ calorie total) equation I use is based on lean body mass, so even though total weight would remain the same in the second approach, calories would be increased to support additional muscle mass.



So, basically, I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on which approach would be best to go with (or if there's another I'm not considering that would be even better).

Thank you all very much, in advance, for any input!

[kronik420]

you can't maintain 6% bf for too long... it's just not healthy...

[tice1212]

you can't maintain 6% bf for too long... it's just not healthy...

Agreed! and If u try to stay at 6%. be ready to loss most of ur gains.

[nussnussbaby]

you can't maintain 6% bf for too long... it's just not healthy...

Not looking to get into a debate about the possibility or health of low bf%, though. Any thoughts on the question I asked?

[MuscleInk]

you can't maintain 6% bf for too long... it's just not healthy...

Agreed. Difficult to achieve and hard to maintain. Those that have never dropped bf below 10% really don't appreciate the commitment it takes. I'm not saying OP lacks the discipline, it's just harder than many realize.

As for the website, again, not knocking it but its one source and what are the credentials of the person(s) posting? 13 year old kids are writing blogs and flooding the Internet with information. Doesn't make them experts. I've seen people work their a$$ off to get to 10% and the sheer commitment is insane!

[MuscleInk]

To answer your question though, diet and cardio. There isn't a "one size fits all" solution. Genetics, age, nutrition, health characteristics, frequency and intensity of training.....there are so many variables involved that I don't think there's one precise answer. Obviously, cutting calories to sub TDEE, increasing cardio, and burning more calories than you consume will reduce bf. It's almost impossible not to experience a slight drop in strength and possibly even a little loss in muscle mass. How much really depends on your genetics and the program you stick to.

Sure, you can eat 600 calories a day and your bf will drop but so will strength and lean muscle. There isn't one plan that works with the same results for every person. Some lose weight faster, others more slowly. "Move more, eat less" is as simple as it gets. Gear will help regulate muscle loss but anyone who has done this long enough will tell you that if your calories are too low, energy, strength, and muscle mass will decrease even with gear.

[nussnussbaby]

Agreed. Difficult to achieve and hard to maintain. Those that have never dropped bf below 10% really don't appreciate the commitment it takes. I'm not saying OP lacks the discipline, it's just harder than many realize.

As for the website, again, not knocking it but its one source and what are the credentials of the person(s) posting? 13 year old kids are writing blogs and flooding the Internet with information. Doesn't make them experts. I've seen people work their a$$ off to get to 10% and the sheer commitment is insane!

As I said - - not looking to get into a debate about the possibility or health of low bf% (though, for the record, I have gotten to 6.1% at 155lbs before ~ bod-pod tested ~ and I could have maintained it for as long as I liked, if I liked my composition there...and you should probably read every word on that website about ten times).

[nussnussbaby]

To answer your question though, diet and cardio. There isn't a "one size fits all" solution. Genetics, age, nutrition, health characteristics, frequency and intensity of training.....there are so many variables involved that I don't think there's one precise answer. Obviously, cutting calories to sub TDEE, increasing cardio, and burning more calories than you consume will reduce bf. It's almost impossible not to experience a slight drop in strength and possibly even a little loss in muscle mass. How much really depends on your genetics and the program you stick to.

Sure, you can eat 600 calories a day and your bf will drop but so will strength and lean muscle. There isn't one plan that works with the same results for every person. Some lose weight faster, others more slowly. "Move more, eat less" is as simple as it gets. Gear will help regulate muscle loss but anyone who has done this long enough will tell you that if your calories are too low, energy, strength, and muscle mass will decrease even with gear.

1-you're wrong. read that site. i did zero cardio (aside from occasional walking/rec sports) in reaching and maintaining 6.1%bf. i repeat, read every word on that website about ten times.

2-what are you talking about!? My question was about which approach to cycling would be best after losing weight.

[AlphaMike]

1-you're wrong. read that site. i did zero cardio (aside from occasional walking/rec sports) in reaching and maintaining 6.1%bf. i repeat, read every word on that website about ten times.

2-what are you talking about!? My question was about which approach to cycling would be best after losing weight.

Man I really wanna believe you...but I trust MI's opinion more and you come off a little arrogant. You kinda derailed your own thread by posting that bit about the bf%, it casts doubt on everything else you say.

[MuscleInk]

1-you're wrong. read that site. i did zero cardio (aside from occasional walking/rec sports) in reaching and maintaining 6.1%bf. i repeat, read every word on that website about ten times.

2-what are you talking about!? My question was about which approach to cycling would be best after losing weight.

Carry on with THAT attitude and you'll be discussing this with yourself.

[MuscleInk]

Man I really wanna believe you...but I trust MI's opinion more and you come off a little arrogant. You kinda derailed your own thread by posting that bit about the bf%, it casts doubt on everything else you say.

Well, I'm done. It would have been an interesting dialogue and I'm certain there would have been some great opinions bantered about, but he seems to think he knows it all so I'm not waisting my time with him.

Good luck.

[nussnussbaby]

Man I really wanna believe you...but I trust MI's opinion more and you come off a little arrogant. You kinda derailed your own thread by posting that bit about the bf%, it casts doubt on everything else you say.

I don't care if you ever learn how to train right or not. If you have input to add to my question, please, do. If you want to hijack this thread into pointlessness, please, move on.

[nussnussbaby]

Well, I'm done. It would have been an interesting dialogue and I'm certain there would have been some great opinions bantered about, but he seems to think he knows it all so I'm not waisting my time with him.

Good luck.

I exercised a total of, idk, about an hour a week to get into that shape, in the picture I posted above (same amount I exercised to get to six%). What do you look like? How often do you train? Welcome to the real world dude - - you don't know what you're doing in the gym or in the kitchen. And neither do most of the idiots writing in your stupid magazines. *I'm no genetic marvel either. I started off at 240+lbs, 30+%bf.

I know very little about steroids. Hence the reason I am here. Hence the reason I asked the question I asked. I sure as hell know a lot more about training and nutrition than you if you think cardio is even a part of how you get to six%bf. Put down the moron body-building magazines repeating Arnold-isms and take a look at some scientific research done in this millennium. If you even have access to academic journal articles, that is.

You, along with the rest of the contributors to this thread thus far, have contributed NOTHING to answering that one, simple question. Either tell me what you think about my question. Or move on. And don't waste my time.

Read the site, talk to me, and learn how to train.. or don't. I don't care.

[AlphaMike]

I exercised a total of, idk, about an hour a week total to get into that shape, in the picture I posted above (same amount I exercised to get to six%). What do you look like? How often do you train? Welcome to the real world dude - - you don't know what you're doing in the gym or in the kitchen. And neither do most of the idiots writing in your stupid magazines. *I'm no genetic marvel either. I started off at 240+lbs, 30+%bf.

I know very little about steroids. Hence the reason I am here. Hence the reason I asked the question I asked. I sure as hell know a lot more about training and nutrition than you if you think cardio is even a part of how you get to six%bf. Put down the moron body-building magazines repeating Arnold-isms and take a look at some scientific research done in this millennium. If you even have access to academic journal articles, that is.

You, along with the rest of the contributors to this thread thus far, have contributed NOTHING to answering that one, simple question. Either tell me what you think about my question. Or move on. And don't waste my time.

Read the site, talk to me, and learn how to train.. or don't. I don't care.

[kelkel]

What would MI know. He's only a doctor. I'm sure you know far more than most here.

[cj111]

Option 1,
now please shutup

[nussnussbaby]

What would MI know. He's only a doctor. I'm sure you know far more than most here.

You think doctors know about training?? Jesus.

[kelkel]

You think doctors know about training?? Jesus.

Not generally, but this one absolutely.

[nussnussbaby]

Option 1,
now please shutup

Dude. I asked a very, very simple question about gear. 17 posts in this thread and nothing has even approached the question asked. I'm not here to argue with anyone about training, nutrition, body fat percentage possibilities. All I did was ask a SIMPLE question. And you are telling me to shut up!?

If you want to learn how to eat and how to train. Ask me. I'd be happy to tell you.

No gear. Less than an hour a week in the gym total. Coming from 30+%bf. I look like I do in that picture. I know something you don't. I'm sorry that bothers you.

If you have something to say in response to the question I asked, go for it. If you're here looking to waste time, go and do it somewhere else.

[nussnussbaby]

Not generally, but this one absolutely.

Why would you think that?? He thinks cardio is how you get ripped?? He clearly lost touch with cutting edge bodybuilding knowledge somewhere in the 1990's.

[kelkel]

Seriously why are you even here? You don't want to hear what other members say unless it's what you want to hear. I believe you started a similar thread not too long ago.

When you write your book blowing away all current logic I'll be the first to buy it.

[nussnussbaby]

Seriously why are you even here? You don't want to hear what other members say unless it's what you want to hear. I believe you started a similar thread not too long ago.

When you write your book blowing away all current logic I'll be the first to buy it.

It's already been written. Go to the site I recommended. And there's a BIG difference between popular logic and current logic. I am speaking of one. You the other.

And I am obviously here to ask a question. A question I asked in the original post. A question that I have never asked before. A question that - - 22 posts into this thread - - no one has even attempted to address.

Why are you here!? To waste time and fight about stupid bs. Or to answer a question asked in the thread?? If you have an opinion, please give it. If not, let someone else.

[kelkel]

Ok. I'll let someone else. Then you can find a reason to dismiss their answer.

[austinite]

It's already been written. Go to the site I recommended. And there's a BIG difference between popular logic and current logic. I am speaking of one. You the other.

And I am obviously here to ask a question. A question I asked in the original post. A question that I have never asked before. A question that - - 22 posts into this thread - - no one has even attempted to address.

Why are you here!? To waste time and fight about stupid bs. Or to answer a question asked in the thread?? If you have an opinion, please give it. If not, let someone else.

Hey, people are trying to help you. It doesn't matter what you want, or don't want to hear. You will get advice that is tailored to you. If you don't like this style of responses, there are plenty of forums where people will cheer you on. The internet is huge, you could easily get lost.

[nussnussbaby]

Ok. I'll let someone else. Then you can find a reason to dismiss their answer.

He or she would be the first person to even attempt.

[--->>405<<---]

U wanna know whether u should cut to 165 and lean bulk to 170 and hopefully 6%

Or cut to 170 and recomp to 6%???

Why not just start cutting and dont stop til u get to 6% and see what weight u make it to?

I doubt u will be able, if at 6% 165 lbs, to add 5lbs muscle and no fat. Ive cut to 9% and it was very tough.

If u have a way to get to 6% with no cardio, lets hear it.

Btw u come across as an asshole. Ive seen many like u and none of em make it here long...

[nussnussbaby]

Hey, people are trying to help you. It doesn't matter what you want, or don't want to hear. You will get advice that is tailored to you. If you don't like this style of responses, there are plenty of forums where people will cheer you on. The internet is huge, you could easily get lost.

Austinite. Please read the original post. I asked a very, very simple question. Which gear approach would be better - this one, or this one.

If I was disagreeing with answers I had gotten to that question, you would have a point. Unfortunately, no one has even attempted to begin answering it.

If you have an opinion, please, share.

[austinite]

Austinite. Please read the original post. I asked a very, very simple question. Which gear approach would be better - this one, or this one.

If I was disagreeing with answers I had gotten to that question, you would have a point. Unfortunately, no one has even attempted to begin answering it.

If you have an opinion, please, share.

Maybe you're not getting the answer because you're on the defense. Try losing the "I don't want to debate this or that-attitude" and maybe you'll see things differently. Give people a chance before you shoot them down. You're coming off as a dick. Maybe not your intention, but you are. Just reading your replies deterred me.

[nussnussbaby]

U wanna know whether u should cut to 165 and lean bulk to 170 and hopefully 6%

Or cut to 170 and recomp to 6%???

Why not just start cutting and dont stop til u get to 6% and see what weight u make it to?

I doubt u will be able, if at 6% 165 lbs, to add 5lbs muscle and no fat. Ive cut to 9% and it was very tough.

If u have a way to get to 6% with no cardio, lets hear it.

Btw u come across as an asshole. Ive seen many like u and none of em make it here long...

Thank you for being the first person here - in this 27 post thread - to even attempt to answer the question I asked, for seeming to have an interest in learning something new, and for calling me an asshole (~the irony of that statement always makes me giggle, as the act of calling someone an asshole itself is an asshole-ish action)

#1) If you're interested in learning the right thing to do, go to the website I recommended (leangains dot com), read at least all the main articles, and then PM me your questions. Martin Berkham is, IMO, hands-down, the most knowledgeable man in the world of fitness today. He stopped writing and consulting several years ago because he could no longer take the culture of ignorance that has engulfed the world of fitness. Fortunately for you, I am one of the few fans he still talks to on a regular basis; and I can fill in the gaps that he leaves unfilled on his website for you. Don't take my word for it though. The research and knowledge on the site speaks for itself. Then the training reeeaaallly speaks for itself, if you ever start. I'm always happy to help anyone with a genuine interest and open mind.

#2) As I said earlier in this ridiculous thread, I have gotten to six%bf before (6.1% to be exact, according to the bod-pod reading). I was 155lbs. I didn't think my physique was muscular enough, however. Hence the reason I bulked up.

#3) I am not expecting to reach 6%bf at 170lbs. If you go back and look at the original thread, you will see I stated my goal as "as close to six%bf as possible".

#4) I am asking which would be the best way to attempt to reach my stated goal - - 170lbs, as close to six%bf as possible. It will be my first cycle. Should I cut to 170lbs and then re-comp cycle (maintaining overall weight, but improving muscle/fat composition). Or should I cut to 165lbs and gain 5lbs on the cycle. Which approach do you think has the better odds of getting me closest to my goal (*if you don't know, that's fine - - I'm guessing someone on here with a pretty good idea will eventually come along).

[nussnussbaby]

Maybe you're not getting the answer because you're on the defense. Try losing the "I don't want to debate this or that-attitude" and maybe you'll see things differently. Give people a chance before you shoot them down. You're coming off as a dick. Maybe not your intention, but you are. Just reading your replies deterred me.

Fair point. My approach to training is quite alien to common knowledge ~ and hearing about it often puts veterans of the sport on the defense. I believe it's the best approach there is. I don't want to debate it (I'd rather just hear opinions regarding the question I came here to learn more about). But if you'd like to, go ahead and read a little of the website and we can discuss it.

I do four exercises and four exercises only. Bench, Squat, Deadlifts and Weighted Chin-ups. I do 2 sets of each exercise. Maximum 5-7 reps. I rest about 10 minutes in between sets. And that's it for the week. I also eat quite a bit differently than most. For a natural body-builder, with such a minimal time commitment ~ ~ Arnold himself would be impressed with my results (pictured above). Speaking very generally, popular/common knowledge vastly underestimates the importance of recovery time, and vastly overestimates the importance of training frequency and duration.

And again, please, if you have an approach regarding which approach I should take with my first cycle, please do share.

[nussnussbaby]

Ok. I'll let someone else. Then you can find a reason to dismiss their answer.

Sir. I wouldn't have a reason to dismiss a knowledgeable answer regarding the question asked. As I revealed earlier in this thread, I know next to nothing about gear compared to the veterans of this site.

[Bonaparte]

If you already know how to train, cut, and diet better than everyone else, why are you asking for our advice?
Like it really matters which option you choose?
And what everyone is trying to tell you is this: sure, you can reach 6%. But you won't be able to maintain that sort of physique for long without becoming sick or getting injured, since it will weaken your immune system and overall health. 6% is IFBB show condition.

[nussnussbaby]

If you already know how to train, cut, and diet better than everyone else, why are you asking for our advice?
Like it really matters which option you choose?
And what everyone is trying to tell you is this: sure, you can reach 6%. But you won't be able to maintain that sort of physique for long without becoming sick or getting injured, since it will weaken your immune system and overall health. 6% is IFBB show condition.

Well. The leangains approach believes it is possible. And I maintained very close to 6% for an entire summer with no health problems or difficulties until I chose to begin bulking. We can agree to disagree on that if you'd like.

And sure. I do believe I know more about training, cutting and dieting than anyone in this thread. But I know zilch about gear. As I'm sure you know, bodies have natural limits. And I would like to exceed mine. Hence the reason I am here asking questions about how to best do so.

Am I reading you right regarding your suggestion that there is no difference between the two approaches? Re-comp cycling at 170lbs vs. cycling from 165lbs to 170lbs?

[gold43]

1. Your training is obviously crap! Is your chest wearing camo? I can't see it?

2. Nobody here likes you now!

3. Do you think that anybody will admire you by trying to sound like you know everything about training and your alien approach?

4. Nobody here likes you now!

5. It's not up for debate! Your an asshole!

[nussnussbaby]

1. Your training is obviously crap! Is your chest wearing camo? I can't see it?

2. Nobody here likes you now!

3. Do you think that anybody will admire you by trying to sound like you know everything about training and your alien approach?

4. Nobody here likes you now!

5. It's not up for debate! Your an asshole!

1) For a former fat-kid natural who spends an a hour/wk or less in the gym, I look incredible. Sorry if superior methods / new knowledge scares you.

2) Post a picture of yourself.

3) Certainly don't want admiration. Just knowledge about the optimal usage of gear.

[gold43]

Didn't you read rule #2 & #4??
We tried to help you. You didn't ask knowledge about gear. You asked about training. Re read your post. You said either option you were going to use the site's recommended first cycle. After being such an arrogant dick!! You think anybody here cares about that shit site and how great your training is?
Your training sucks kid! My son has more definition in his chest and traps than you do.

I certainly don't need to post a pic of myself to prove anything to you.
I'm simply entertaining this thread while I scratch my balls.

[tice1212]

1. Your training is obviously crap! Is your chest wearing camo? I can't see it?

2. Nobody here likes you now!

3. Do you think that anybody will admire you by trying to sound like you know everything about training and your alien approach?

4. Nobody here likes you now!

5. It's not up for debate! Your an asshole!

I second this! oh and you should choose option #3 "good f*** urself Mr.Know it all"

[nussnussbaby]

Didn't you read rule #2 & #4??
We tried to help you. You didn't ask knowledge about gear. You asked about training. Re read your post. You said either option you were going to use the site's recommended first cycle. After being such an arrogant dick!! You think anybody here cares about that shit site and how great your training is?
Your training sucks kid! My son has more definition in his chest and traps than you do.

I certainly don't need to post a pic of myself to prove anything to you.
I'm simply entertaining this thread while I scratch my balls.

1) I see. I probably wouldn't want to post a pic if I was you either. No biggie.

2) You're just plain wrong. Sorry. Re-read the post. I asked nothing about training. I asked about two different approaches to a first cycle. And no one in this - now 37 post thread - has said a single word about which would be better.

[kelkel]

And sure. I do believe I know more about training, cutting and dieting than anyone in this thread.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, sums everything up nicely.

[David LoPan]

Wow, I have read this a couple of time and I dont know what the OP is asking. Seems to concerned about a certain number % of body fat. If you want to run around and brag about your body fat then no one hear really will care.
If you are asking what type of AAS to run to get to a certain BF I dont think you will get much of a response.
If you are happy with working out one hour a week and asking what "gear" you should run, I dont think you will get anyone to answer you.
If you want real answers here I think you have them from people that know there stuff. IMHO you are more concerned about what your % of BF is other than your health.
Are you just stuck on weight and BF numbers? I know a lot of people that look better at a higher weight and bf than a lower bf and weight . . . remember its ONLY A NUMBER.

My only question is why are you thinking about doing a cycle at all. If that pic is you and your are happy with your body why use gear at all?