lat spread and genetics

[illwillogical]

It seems to me, that very few people, have the genetics to have a sick lat spread. I have been working my back hard for years, and I guess, I would be average.

I see lots of guys in the gym, that have huge arms, chest, legs etc. but it is very rare to see someone that just has that wicked pro BB lat spread.

In my opinion, and from what I have seen, very few mean have the genetics to have lats like that. What do you guys think?

[GT2]

I disagree. A lot of the guys with huge arms, and huge chests either don't workout their backs altogether, or half-ass it and do pull-downs and some seated rows at the end of their arm workout and wonder why their back isn't growing.

[illwillogical]

I disagree. A lot of the guys with huge arms, and huge chests either don't workout their backs altogether, or half-ass it and do pull-downs and some seated rows at the end of their arm workout and wonder why their back isn't growing.

There are lots of serious guys out there. Like I said I rarely see lats that are freakish!

[GT2]

There are lots of serious guys out there. Like I said I rarely see lats that are freakish!

Fair enough. But I'll go one further. I rarely see ANYTHING besides arms that are freakish.

[IronReload04]

It seems to me, that very few people, have the genetics to have a sick lat spread. I have been working my back hard for years, and I guess, I would be average.

I see lots of guys in the gym, that have huge arms, chest, legs etc. but it is very rare to see someone that just has that wicked pro BB lat spread.

In my opinion, and from what I have seen, very few mean have the genetics to have lats like that. What do you guys think?

2 questions for you

1. are you deadlifting near 600 pounds for reps?

2. are you doing rowing and pull down type exercises with appropriately light weight to emphasize back muscles.


This is really whats lacking in gyms across the USA. Not genes to the extent that you might think.

of course, yes, ultimately, genetics is the single most important thing. My dad for instance, has lats shaped exactly like dorian and has probably never trained back with weights. He does have a physical job though.

[illwillogical]

2 questions for you

1. are you deadlifting near 600 pounds for reps?

2. are you doing rowing and pull down type exercises with appropriately light weight to emphasize back muscles.


This is really whats lacking in gyms across the USA. Not genes to the extent that you might think.

of course, yes, ultimately, genetics is the single most important thing. My dad for instance, has lats shaped exactly like dorian and has probably never trained back with weights. He does have a physical job though.

No, my back won't hold up to 600lb deadlifts.

Yes, I always use strict form and can feel my lats work.

My back is pretty decent. Just not freaky, I don't think I have the genetics for it, and I don't see a lot that do. That's all I am saying.

[IronReload04]

No, my back won't hold up to 600lb deadlifts.

Yes, I always use strict form and can feel my lats work.

My back is pretty decent. Just not freaky, I don't think I have the genetics for it, and I don't see a lot that do. That's all I am saying.

well I think what I am trying to say is that. I have never seen some one that can deadlift 600 pounds for reps who did not have a stellar lat spread. I never see anyone that can deadlift 600 pounds for reps, therefor i never see anyone wiht a stellar lat spread.

you never know till you try.

[Narkissos]

I don't think it's a matter of 'genetics'.. though that seems to be the first reason most people cling to.

I think most trainees simply don't know how to recruit the back musculature.

Out of sight... out of mind.

Arms and delts get in the way easily... Doesn't take any real mental connection to recruit 'em.

They're right there after all... showpiece muscles.

We flex and utilize 'em consciously each day.

Back musculature?

Most don't remember it's there 'cept when a hot chick or buff dude walk by.

Imaginary Lat syndrome-X.

[illwillogical]

I don't think it's a matter of 'genetics'.. though that seems to be the first reason most people cling to.

I think most trainees simply don't know how to recruit the back musculature.

Out of sight... out of mind.

Arms and delts get in the way easily... Doesn't take any real mental connection to recruit 'em.

They're right there after all... showpiece muscles.

We flex and utilize 'em consciously each day.

Back musculature?

Most don't remember it's there 'cept when a hot chick or buff dude walk by.

Imaginary Lat syndrome-X.

I agree, I really do feel my lats work, but they aren't world class, lol. I would say better than most at my gym. I really want to get them bigger!

[IronReload04]

I agree, I really do feel my lats work, but they aren't world class, lol. I would say better than most at my gym. I really want to get them bigger!

to get the back bigger, perhaps get your whole body bigger. Its not like you are going to have a back that belongs on a 250 pound rhino when the rest of your body is a comforable 170-200 pounds.

[illwillogical]

to get the back bigger, perhaps get your whole body bigger. Its not like you are going to have a back that belongs on a 250 pound rhino when the rest of your body is a comforable 170-200 pounds.

You're right, one day, it takes time.

[IronReload04]

You're right, one day, it takes time.

Coleman = huge back = huge deadlifter

J jackson = huge back = huge deadlifter

dorian = HUMUNGOUS back = huge deadlifter



considering that all the top 10 ifbb pro's have all got reasonably equal superior genetics. The huge deadlifters are the guys who seperate themselves from the pack.

just a personal observation.

[IronReload04]

dont mean to keep dragging on, but ask anyone. deadlifts changes you like no other exercise. When you see a guy that does them, you just immediately know. clavicles get thicker, traps get ****en retarded, rear delts get hit HARD....and it takes ALOT and i mean ALOTTTTTTT of stabilization from the lats to support big time weight. add that to good form appropriately light rows and pullsdowns......and with deads and squats, and good form on other back exercises, you got a stimulus that sais "o my ****ing god we need to get bigger now"

[Narkissos]

^^Personally I think rows and chins are superior to deads.

But everyone is entitled to their opinions.

[GT2]

^^Personally I think rows and chins are superior to deads.

But everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I have to disagree, but maybe your body responds better to rows and chins.

When you do deadlifts, so many muscles are recruited and used at once, much more so than doing chins and rows alone. I only recently have started doing shrugs, but even before, I've had huge traps simply because of all the deadlifting I've done.

What annoys me is, the first question people ask me when they see me is "what do you bench?". It's never "what do you squat/deadlift?", and I pride myself on those two exercises.

[Lfs2shrt2bsml]

what do you squat/ deadlift?

[GT2]

what do you squat/ deadlift?

Are you talking to me?

[beatango2008]

I have to disagree, but maybe your body responds better to rows and chins.

When you do deadlifts, so many muscles are recruited and used at once, much more so than doing chins and rows alone. I only recently have started doing shrugs, but even before, I've had huge traps simply because of all the deadlifting I've done.

What annoys me is, the first question people ask me when they see me is "what do you bench?". It's never "what do you squat/deadlift?", and I pride myself on those two exercises.

Why because your bench sucks? lol

[GT2]

Why because your bench sucks? lol

Haha it's better than 95% of people in my gym.

My point is, everybody is obsessed with bench for no reason.

[Bossman]

I have to disagree, but maybe your body responds better to rows and chins.

When you do deadlifts, so many muscles are recruited and used at once, much more so than doing chins and rows alone. I only recently have started doing shrugs, but even before, I've had huge traps simply because of all the deadlifting I've done.

What annoys me is, the first question people ask me when they see me is "what do you bench?". It's never "what do you squat/deadlift?", and I pride myself on those two exercises.

There's no doubt deads help. I used to do rack deads, deads from the floor kill my lower back every time. I think they've helped my overall thickness. But my lats were built from chins/pulldowns/rows. I had a decent lat spread at 15, built only from rows.

[Narkissos]

There's no doubt deads help. I used to do rack deads, deads from the floor kill my lower back every time. I think they've helped my overall thickness. But my lats were built from chins/pulldowns/rows. I had a decent lat spread at 15, built only from rows.

Exactly.

The opinion of a competitor, as opposed to a competition hopeful.

I started doing deads a couple years after joining AR.

Prior to doing 'em I had competed for numerous years from the junior level.

My waist was tiny as hell, and my lat spread wide.

When I started to dead, i quickly got my dead to 545 lbs.

I saw increases in erector thickness and ham thickness... yay me... but no huge leaps in back width.

For a training phase I stopped doing overhead pulling movements.

I only did rows... my back got even wider and thicker.



The IFBB pros I worked with coming up as a junior competitor (and again in a professional capacity many years later) don't deadlift... other than SLDLs on leg day. (SLDLs on a 6" platform for increased muscle recruitment)

Theses guys row, chin, and repeat... sometimes thrice per week.

Anyway.. Like I said prior, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

I reached my strength goal with deads and now i only do 'em for maintenance, as the strength garnered from said movement is useful...and transferable to other movements.

My back width though?

Rows and chins/pull-ups...and plenty of 'em.

[Dukkit]

ive been concentrating on Rack Pulls instead of full on Deads

takes the lower back and hams out of the equation and focuses on the upper back, lats, traps more for me.

ive seen great increase in width and thickness from that.
also i can increase the weight doin so more then with deads.
so that lead to great increases in my back structure

but everyone is different as we say. and some just respond to different excercises in different manners.

[IronReload04]

Nark....just curious how do you do you rows.

I believe strongly in the pendelay version, with back not quite parellel to floor and rotate between palms up/palms down......



I guess the way I look at it. I really noticed my own width improved greatly when really focusing on form with rows and pulldowns. And i guess deadlifts might not have ifluenced that directly..........but i think they have kind of helped me more indirectly. Like more meat on the back overall makes room for bigger lats or something.

[Bossman]

In addition, speaking as a competitor, you have to be very careful with heavy deads and squats as they can increase the width of your waist. For most guys, not a problem adding to your core strength. But, my waist is not small and adding size there is an issue.

In 2006 I spent a lot of time in the squat rack, going as high as 675 for 3 reps. And, on back day, rack deads as high as 700lbs. Gaining mass was my goal. But, after cutting for 2007 spring contests I discovered I'd added width (obliques) to my waist. Not a good thing for me. Now that Ive gained the mass I needed, I'm using higher reps and lower weight on leg day, and very seldom do deads anymore at all.

[Narkissos]

Nark....just curious how do you do you rows.

Torso parallel to floor.

Grip..just outside shoulder width (overhand).

Standing on 6" platform... lowering to instep on each rep.

...Flaring lats at point of max stretch.

^^That's my basic form.

I also do a torso parallel version without the platform (i.e. pulling from the floor)... but obviously the ROM is shorter (as one has to avoid making contact with the floor).

I use the latter row to overload the musculature tru that shorter ROM.

The latter version is akin to the Pendalay row... where ROM is concerned.

I guess the way I look at it. I really noticed my own width improved greatly when really focusing on form with rows and pulldowns.

By 'form' i'm assuming you're referring to scapulae retraction and muscle recruitment... right?

And i guess deadlifts might not have ifluenced that directly..........but i think they have kind of helped me more indirectly. Like more meat on the back overall makes room for bigger lats or something.

Or rather, stronger stabilizers allowed you to hold your form better.

-CNS

[IronReload04]

Torso parallel to floor.

Grip..just outside shoulder width (overhand).

Standing on 6" platform... lowering to instep on each rep.

...Flaring lats at point of max stretch.

^^That's my basic form.

I also do a torso parallel version without the platform (i.e. pulling from the floor)... but obviously the ROM is shorter (as one has to avoid making contact with the floor).

I use the latter row to overload the musculature tru that shorter ROM.

The latter version is akin to the Pendalay row... where ROM is concerned.




By 'form' i'm assuming you're referring to scapulae retraction and muscle recruitment... right?



Or rather, stronger stabilizers allowed you to hold your form better.

-CNS

by form, I mean stop pulling with the rear delts and the biceps. That is the number one problem with back training that I see by just observing people. Going to heavy and using all delts and bi's and no lats. I am all about going heavy where possible, but back really is a difficult muscle to train (or rather in our case to get the hang of training it).




I was also just real curious if you like going back parellel to floor. Alot of people swear up and down by going angled. I prefer parellel as well.





I a huge believer in the palms out grip with rows and pulldowns. I think both overhand and underhand are very important, and I usually do one or the other every other back workout. Dorian himself was a huge advocate of the palms out grip. It still surprizes me just how different palms out hits back.



edit
Every row I do is pendelay style. Ever since I started doing them, I saw immediate progress. And again, once I got the form down on overhead pulling exercises, I saw HUGE HUGE HUGE changes in lat width thickness out of nowhere. Problem is I started doing pendelays and overhead pulling with better form at the same time perdiod, so its hard to say for sure exactly what made awesome changes in combination with rapid deadlift improvement as well