How to be a steroid user and not end up on TRT

[baseline_9]

Guys, my question is in the title. How can you prevent premature TRT while still using syeroids. Can we lay out sum key points.

• Good PCT
• Time off between cycles => cycle+pct
• knowlege of substance used (not deca on its own)

what do sum of u vets, who ended up on TRT think would be a good way of going about cycling but ensuring recovering ur own natty test to its fullest each time you come off a cycle.

Hope this can help people out in the long run.

[Big]

how to not end up on premature trt might be a good topic for discussion, as many guys who never used steroids end up on trt once they are advanced sufficiently in age.

[baseline_9]

Agreed, i actually dont know any (older) people on TRT, however i supose its not somthing u will openly talk about if ur just a normal guy wjo has not used gear in the past.

Im sure that a high percentage of men over 40 are probly eligable for TRT but have never heard of it and dont even know it exists.

[marcus300]

You have to remember everyone is different, ive known guys who have ran one cycle and struggled with regaining full function of their HPTA and on the opposite side I know guys who have ran cycle for yrs many heavy ones without any PCT and their test levels are fine and have no issues what so ever in recovery.

Obviously there are certain risk factors to take inconsideration here, I have know many young guys who have cycled in their teens who are on HRT in their 20's, in fact this number is alarming to be honest and that's why I try and educate the younger members in waiting until they have fully developed.

I also feel many users don't have enough time off in between cycles and never really get back to normal test production, i feel this will advance hrt by many years.

I also feel a lot of people don't get bloodwork done so they never know if they have ever really recovered or what damage they have done to themselves.

There isnt a 100% answer but I am sure if you add hormones in your body you got to expect some kind of hormonal imbalance at sometime in your life, you can lesson the risks by implement the right ways to cycle but if your one of the unlucky ones you got to expect the worse.

[IMunchRoidz]

You have to remember everyone is different, ive known guys who have ran one cycle and struggled with regaining full function of their HPTA and on the opposite side I know guys who have ran cycle for yrs many heavy ones without any PCT and their test levels are fine and have no issues what so ever in recovery.

Obviously there are certain risk factors to take inconsideration here, I have know many young guys who have cycled in their teens who are on HRT in their 20's, in fact this number is alarming to be honest and that's why I try and educate the younger members in waiting until they have fully developed.

I also feel many users don't have enough time off in between cycles and never really get back to normal test production, i feel this will advance hrt by many years.

I also feel a lot of people don't get bloodwork done so they never know if they have ever really recovered or what damage they have done to themselves.

There isnt a 100% answer but I am sure if you add hormones in your body you got to expect some kind of hormonal imbalance at sometime in your life, you can lesson the risks by implement the right ways to cycle but if your one of the unlucky ones you got to expect the worse.

I'm just wondering, one of my friends, who is alot bigger than me, is planning to become a national bodybuilder. He is only 17 almost 18 i think.. He is thinking about starting steroids at a young age (possibly at 18, im not sure). I told him not to, but now i think about it. If he is planning to compete at a national level, he is going to use steroids for a long time right? That means eventually he will end up on TRT? I reckon he should get his growth plates checked first, and if its ok... what would be so bad at starting if he knows he will be on TRT one day?

[terraj]

^^So no wish to be a father huh...

[IMunchRoidz]

^^So no wish to be a father huh...

Uhh just cos u on TRT doesnt mean u cant have babies...

right?

[Big]

starting steroids at 18 would greatly decrease the odds of having kids

[IMunchRoidz]

starting steroids at 18 would greatly decrease the odds of having kids

Ahh ok, I believe u, I'll pass on the message
thanks
But.. how does this work? Isn't TRT injecting testosterone, how will it affect sperm

[baseline_9]

Ahh ok, I believe u, I'll pass on the message
thanks
But.. how does this work? Isn't TRT injecting testosterone, how will it affect sperm

It will shut down ur natty test production

[crabmasta]

all i know is im 20 and i ran my first cycle, it was fun and all i gained about 17 pounds of solid muscle. i just finished my pct. i shouldnt of done it really, at a young age it's like we produce enough test for a 40 year old on gear so whats the point, at an older age when out test naturally declines would make since to me to be safe. im not knowledgable as many of these older guys but im starting to learn from yall. good topic. im going to compete in my first BB contest in october but will not juice for years........ well i should'nt

[dece870717]

Ahh ok, I believe u, I'll pass on the message
thanks
But.. how does this work? Isn't TRT injecting testosterone, how will it affect sperm

The intratesticular testosterone is whats necessary for spermatogenesis from the sertoli cells. So if you are shut down by using an outside source of Test, your intratesticular testosterone is going to be basically nothing because your body is no longer making any test the natural way.

But I have read of many long TRT users using a HCG + HMG combo during TRT to greatly increase sperm count and eventually getting their wives/girfriends pregnant.

[dece870717]

I think a lot of deciding to stay on forever in the young years also has to do a lot with a persons goals. If your goal is to be something like 5'9-6 foot, 240-260lbs at 6-8% all year round you are going to HAVE to be on at all times and at a higher dose of TRT just to be able to maintain such a condition. One of the reasons I decided to go on TRT while being so young was simply because I realized this. My goals are not reachable or maintainable without the decision to always be on.

If you want to not end up on TRT early, cycle as little as possible, twice a year max, use hcg to help maintain testicular function while on, use AI's to keep estrogen in check, avoid using 19-nors, and don't be cheap on spending the money on a good PCT!

[ScotchGuard]

I agree with dece, deciding to cycle, at any age, is based on personal goals. I learned about steroids when I was 16. My first cycle was when I was 48. I have kids and hopefully grand kids soon. I've trained hard my whole life and have tried to maximize my natural potential. I wasn't nearly as big as my peers on gear but I was happy at my own personal level. I started to cycle when my natural level of test was getting lower and it was more difficult to get rid of those little love handles through diet and training. My first cycle experience was wonderful, except for the acne. I still do PCT because I don't want to go on TRT or HRT right now. I'm 50 now and when my body eventually slows down its test production to a crawl I'll go on HRT or TRT. I feel like I've met all of my personal goals with regards to my physical performance. I also have enjoyed my kids throughout these years. Looking back, if I didn't have my kids no amount of ripped quads could replace them. My general philosophy is to maximize the natural potential and then cycle. Go slow and go long.

[bber99]

But I have read of many long TRT users using a HCG + HMG combo during TRT to greatly increase sperm count and eventually getting their wives/girfriends pregnant.

is this a sure thing?
I'd hate to not be able to have any kids down the road..

Does anyone have any studies on HCG+HMG increasing sperm count?

[Egeezy]

is this a sure thing?
I'd hate to not be able to have any kids down the road..

Does anyone have any studies on HCG+HMG increasing sperm count?

I don't have any studies, My doc told me HCG Will triple your sperm count!

[dece870717]

is this a sure thing?
I'd hate to not be able to have any kids down the road..

Does anyone have any studies on HCG+HMG increasing sperm count?

The man wasn't on TRT but under the same conditions as you would be under TRT.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12801577

Abstract

OBJECTIVE: To document for the first time the successful treatment using human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia that was persistent despite 1 year of cessation from steroid use. DESIGN: Clinical case report. SETTINGS: Tertiary referral center for infertility. PATIENT(S): A married couple with primary subfertility secondary to azoospermia and male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The husband was a bodybuilder who admitted to have used the anabolic steroids testosterone cypionate, methandrostenolone, oxandrolone, testosterone propionate, oxymetholone, nandrolone decanoate, and methenolone enanthate. INTERVENTION(S): Twice-weekly injections of 10,000 IU of hCG (Profasi; Serono) and daily injections of 75 IU of hMG (Humegon; Organon) for 3 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Semen analyses, pregnancy. RESULT(S): Semen analyses returned to normal after 3 months of treatment. The couple conceived spontaneously 7 months later. CONCLUSION(S): Steroid-induced azoospermia that is persistent after cessation of steroid use can be treated successfully with hCG and hMG.

[IMunchRoidz]

i've read somewhere it is still possible to have kids while on gear though.. aren't you also shut down while on gear?

[terraj]

i've read somewhere it is still possible to have kids while on gear though.. aren't you also shut down while on gear?

Depends on the cycle and the person, but by the time you get to the end of that cycle most guys will be shut down fully.

[Td00]

So if you only do 1 cycle a year of 8-12 weeks + HCG and a good PCT, the chances of needing HRT are low?

[slimshady01]

I agree with dece, deciding to cycle, at any age, is based on personal goals. I learned about steroids when I was 16. My first cycle was when I was 48. I have kids and hopefully grand kids soon. I've trained hard my whole life and have tried to maximize my natural potential. I wasn't nearly as big as my peers on gear but I was happy at my own personal level. I started to cycle when my natural level of test was getting lower and it was more difficult to get rid of those little love handles through diet and training. My first cycle experience was wonderful, except for the acne. I still do PCT because I don't want to go on TRT or HRT right now. I'm 50 now and when my body eventually slows down its test production to a crawl I'll go on HRT or TRT. I feel like I've met all of my personal goals with regards to my physical performance. I also have enjoyed my kids throughout these years. Looking back, if I didn't have my kids no amount of ripped quads could replace them. My general philosophy is to maximize the natural potential and then cycle. Go slow and go long.

Solid post!

[P3rf3ctionist]

. INTERVENTION(S): Twice-weekly injections of 10,000 IU of hCG (Profasi; Serono) and daily injections of 75 IU of hMG (Humegon; Organon) for 3 months..MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Semen analyses, pregnancy. RESULT(S): Semen analyses returned to normal after 3 months of treatment. The couple conceived spontaneously 7 months later. CONCLUSION(S): Steroid-induced azoospermia that is persistent after cessation of steroid use can be treated successfully with hCG and hMG.[/B]

does that debunk the idea of desensitization of testes to LH? could anybody shed some light.

[rbg]

In my opinion alone, I believe that good PCT will only delay the onset of needing TRT. If you do gear in your 20's, by late 30's I believe you'll likely be on TRT. That's just my opinion from personal experience.

With PCT, it's likely you'll produce enough testicular testosterone to produce sperm and father kids, but over time, that level will naturally drop as you get older. You'll notice old age creeping up on you at a relatively young age, such as fatigue, lethargy, aches, depression, anxiety, and worst of all ED, and loss of libido. You will feel old at a young age. This is called Hypogonadism.

The less amount of cycles a person does, the less amount of damage he is doing to his HPTA. With each cycle, it's like you are speeding up the onset of old age in the long term, should you ever stop doing gear. That's where the problem is, when a person stops, and now no longer produces sufficient endogenous testosterone. That is when old age creeps up on you. As long as testosterone is taken, it act like an anti aging regimen, but it will affect the production of sperm.

I was always told when I began back in to early 90's, to always start on orals. Mild ones back then such as Pronobol 5's, and then cycle onto Anapolon 50's. With orals, 6 weeks on, and 3 weeks off, as they are too toxic. Then use the Anapolon 50 as a stepping stone onto injectables. I never heard of anyone taking injectable, and definately not stacks of gear their first time round. It was always Testosterone (Testoviron) 250mg once per week. This helped to make the off cycle mild to cope with, and the losses less severe. Bulking up on Test, then later adding a Primobolan or a Winstrol, and Clenbuterol, but always having a test base. They were always 10 weeks on and a minimum 3 weeks off. This is to assist the Androgen receptors to work again.

PCT was always HCG. We never used clomid back then. Tamoxifen was always on hand for gyno.

I did that for 3 years, 10 weeks on 3 weeks off....back in '93 to '96 when I was 21 to 24. I still fathered kids upto the age of 35...but did I feel old before my time...heck yeah.
I still retained my size even when not training...it was like it became mature muscle, and even after 15 years I am still 5'10" and 225lbs
Now I'm on TRT...and feel like an 18 year old again. Now, I feel like I have the energy to start training, so I did.

I think a large part of the problem that I see is too many young guys are starting out taking too much gear to begin with. I cringe when I see people advising these guys to start their first cycle with 500mg of test, and sometime even stacking with something else.

To me, even starting with 250mg first ever cycle is too much, and they should start on a mild oral. I can imagine the damage to the HPTA a 500mg cycle and a stack of 400mg of something else will do to over and over again. these are the guys who end up on 1000mg of test, and other stuff, and eventually develop diabetic glaucoma.

[stevey_6t9]

does that debunk the idea of desensitization of testes to lh? Could anybody shed some light.

x2..

[carbo]

In my opinion alone, I believe that good PCT will only delay the onset of needing TRT. If you do gear in your 20's, by late 30's I believe you'll likely be on TRT. That's just my opinion from personal experience.

With PCT, it's likely you'll produce enough testicular testosterone to produce sperm and father kids, but over time, that level will naturally drop as you get older. You'll notice old age creeping up on you at a relatively young age, such as fatigue, lethargy, aches, depression, anxiety, and worst of all ED, and loss of libido. You will feel old at a young age. This is called Hypogonadism.

The less amount of cycles a person does, the less amount of damage he is doing to his HPTA. With each cycle, it's like you are speeding up the onset of old age in the long term, should you ever stop doing gear. That's where the problem is, when a person stops, and now no longer produces sufficient endogenous testosterone. That is when old age creeps up on you. As long as testosterone is taken, it act like an anti aging regimen, but it will affect the production of sperm.

I was always told when I began back in to early 90's, to always start on orals. Mild ones back then such as Pronobol 5's, and then cycle onto Anapolon 50's. With orals, 6 weeks on, and 3 weeks off, as they are too toxic. Then use the Anapolon 50 as a stepping stone onto injectables. I never heard of anyone taking injectable, and definately not stacks of gear their first time round. It was always Testosterone (Testoviron) 250mg once per week. This helped to make the off cycle mild to cope with, and the losses less severe. Bulking up on Test, then later adding a Primobolan or a Winstrol, and Clenbuterol, but always having a test base. They were always 10 weeks on and a minimum 3 weeks off. This is to assist the Androgen receptors to work again.

PCT was always HCG. We never used clomid back then. Tamoxifen was always on hand for gyno.

I did that for 3 years, 10 weeks on 3 weeks off....back in '93 to '96 when I was 21 to 24. I still fathered kids upto the age of 35...but did I feel old before my time...heck yeah.
I still retained my size even when not training...it was like it became mature muscle, and even after 15 years I am still 5'10" and 225lbs
Now I'm on TRT...and feel like an 18 year old again. Now, I feel like I have the energy to start training, so I did.

I think a large part of the problem that I see is too many young guys are starting out taking too much gear to begin with. I cringe when I see people advising these guys to start their first cycle with 500mg of test, and sometime even stacking with something else.

To me, even starting with 250mg first ever cycle is too much, and they should start on a mild oral. I can imagine the damage to the HPTA a 500mg cycle and a stack of 400mg of something else will do to over and over again. these are the guys who end up on 1000mg of test, and other stuff, and eventually develop diabetic glaucoma.

bah, that post is all over the place

[dezza6969]

does that debunk the idea of desensitization of testes to LH? could anybody shed some light.

How does it debunk the idea of hcg desensitization? It is a HYPOGONODAL male who's testes are already desensitized, albiet not by hcg but by past steroid use, thus far greater amounts of hcg have to be used to kickstart. The reward of restarting the testes with a higher dose outweighs the risk of HCG desensitization. There are a bunch of reports on hypogonadalism being treated with large amounts of hcg to try to kickstart the testes. These large clinical doses do not disprove hcg desensitization, just in these extreme cases large doses are needed to get the desired response eg: fertility from testes that would be non responsive to low doses.

[Td00]

So if you only do 1 cycle a year of 8-12 weeks + HCG and a good PCT, the chances of needing HRT are low?

bump?

[baseline_9]

would you be better of running shorter esters and shorter cycles to help HPTA recovery.

example

instead of running test enth for 12 weeks (14 weeks total + 4-6 weeks pct = 20 weeks)

you could run test prop for 8 weeks, start PCT 2-3 days later for 4-6 weeks = 14 weeks

would running shorter cycles help your HPTA recover better?

HCG would be run in both cycles from the half way point all the way until the start of PCT

[big_ron]

would you be better of running shorter esters and shorter cycles to help HPTA recovery.

example

instead of running test enth for 12 weeks (14 weeks total + 4-6 weeks pct = 20 weeks)

you could run test prop for 8 weeks, start PCT 2-3 days later for 4-6 weeks = 14 weeks

would running shorter cycles help your HPTA recover better?

HCG would be run in both cycles from the half way point all the way until the start of PCT

yeah basicly if you are shut down for a shorter period of time, your chances of recovery are greater, but also never certain. i myself have run a few 12-14 weeks cycle, one very stupid deca only cycle 14weeks (this is before i knew this site existed) and another 14weeks of 300mg of test and 300mg of deca, these cycles took my a while to recover, ive had 9 months off from my last and now im on a 500mg of test p for 8 weeks, jst about finished and seeing if i recover quicker

[chrisx]

I think a lot of deciding to stay on forever in the young years also has to do a lot with a persons goals. If your goal is to be something like 5'9-6 foot, 240-260lbs at 6-8% all year round you are going to HAVE to be on at all times and at a higher dose of TRT just to be able to maintain such a condition. One of the reasons I decided to go on TRT while being so young was simply because I realized this. My goals are not reachable or maintainable without the decision to always be on.

If you want to not end up on TRT early, cycle as little as possible, twice a year max, use hcg to help maintain testicular function while on, use AI's to keep estrogen in check, avoid using 19-nors, and don't be cheap on spending the money on a good PCT!

Dece what do you consider a ''good pct"? Also what's your recommended dosages for hcg while on, and what is a good example of 'twice a year' cycles?