How far above maintenance calories on gear? (detailed post, help appreciated)

[Test me]

180lbs 5 8 14% bf

Training few years, done one cycle previously, test e 500mg + d bol 50mg (got up to 200lbs at about 15% but lost it all when uni exams hit)......doing another one but really want to focus on perfect diet and training this time. For training I'm sticking to a 4 day split, 6-12 sets per body part, controlled reps, strength and hyper trophy training per one hour session.

Diet will be strict as anything, no cheat meals at all, oats sweet potato rice whole wheat wraps will be my only carb sources. Olive oil, fish oil, flax seed oil and cheese ( :-) ) for fat sources, egg whites chicken and casein/whey for protein sources.

The diet set up currently is:

Total calories – 3700kcals Current weight – 80kg

Carbs – 393g 347g – Protein Fat - 82g

42% = Carbs 37% = Protein 20% = Fat

For the above I have added roughly 700kcal above tdee for the bulk. I've heard others saying 25kcal/lb is good for a bulk on gear, however that put me about 4000kcal which appeared completely excessive. The goal is to gain maximum amount of muscle with minimum fat gain - like everyone tries.

What are all your thoughts?



As a side note can I use nolvadex as an AI? I have letro but would rather use that incase of a severe gyno emergency, arimidex interferes with the cycle and costs a bomb and I have no access to aromasin!

Also for 500mg test e + 45 mg dbol for 10 weeks i'd assume a nolvadex + HCG shot at start of pct is more than enough to get me going again?

[Atomini]

700 cals above TDEE is just fine. I see too many people around here going WAY too high above maintenance and its just rediculous, you will put on a lot of fat if you go too high. I've seen people around here do stuff like 1,000, 1,500, and even as high or higher than 2,500 cal surpluses... that's just REDICULOUS! Most of us don't need that kind of surplus, and if you do that while on 5,00000000000000000mg of Trenbolone, YOU WILL STILL PUT ON FAT GUARANTEED. Do your 700, see how it goes throughout your cycle and if you find you need to increase (or decrease) it as things go along, then do so. Simple as that!

Also, Nolvadex is not an AI. Nolvadex will not lower total blood plasma estrogen levels - it only blocks estrogen from attaching to receptor sites on breast tissue.

[funkymonk]

700 seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[t-dogg]

I think thats fine. Adding to many calories is just going to add water and fat. Not my cup of tea...

[Until_It_Sleeps]

I think it depends how easily you gain fat. I gain muscle easily but fat too, which is why I watch calories even when trying to add size on gear. My last bulk I was on 3500 cal per day (about 2x maintenance for me) which was way too much for a 5'1 female. I packed on about 15 lbs of fat with all my gains. But if you do not gain fat as easily then obviously you can eat more.

Doesn't some gear (like tren) maximize the efficiency of food? I hear that beef cattle on tren ace can grow with minimal calories, which is why farmers like it. Wouldn't that apply to humans using it as well?

[Atomini]

I think it depends how easily you gain fat. I gain muscle easily but fat too, which is why I watch calories even when trying to add size on gear. My last bulk I was on 3500 cal per day (about 2x maintenance for me) which was way too much for a 5'1 female. I packed on about 15 lbs of fat with all my gains. But if you do not gain fat as easily then obviously you can eat more.

Doesn't some gear (like tren) maximize the efficiency of food? I hear that beef cattle on tren ace can grow with minimal calories, which is why farmers like it. Wouldn't that apply to humans using it as well?

Correct. But this is what ALL anabolic steroids do. Some do this better/more than others (case example is Trenbolone). Trenbolone is not special in this regard, except for its ability to do this at a far greater degree than most AAS. This is what is known as nutrient partitioning. More of the food you eat and nutrents you intake while on a cycle of anabolic steroids will be shuttled towards muscle growth and repair rather than towards fat storage. But I said MORE, not ALL. You can't expect to use the strongest AAS out there and eat small countries for breakfast and not put on any fat mass at all.

[t-dogg]

If tren didnt hurt cardio.... id be all over it lol.

[Sworder]

You can start off at 500-700+ and if you are making lean gains I would up the calories until I notice I am gaining body-fat. I would say that is maximizing your gains. Some guys can consume 1500+, others need to be very cautious with how many calories they consume. Personally, I try to eat as much as I can from clean sources(1500+) and I hover at the same body-fat. Also, I have bed time shakes and middle-of-the-night shakes(oats+casein) to try to maximize calorie consumption from good sources.

[Until_It_Sleeps]

Maybe a little OT, but what is the best way to measure bf% when on cycle and trying to gain mass? Last time I gained, I had someone go over me with the calipers and he said there was no way to get an accurate reading because I had very thick skin and had packed on so much water.

[Sworder]

Hydrostatic measurement would be the most accurate for measuring BF. Honestly I like the calipers even though they are not as accurate to measure body-fat%, but it is accurate in measuring change. If you get a knowledgeable person to be consistent in measuring the same way I think calipers can be a great tool. Look at the single digits measurements which they give on each spot instead of the actual body-fat%.
I don't mean to be rude but "thick skin" is the biggest misconception when measuring bodyfat. Try taking a knife and see how deep you have to cut to come subQ. NOT VERY DEEP!!:P It's going to be "fat" under the skin then the muscle tissue, estrogen and water is stored in the subQ fat.

[Until_It_Sleeps]

True, but my skin has great elasticity; I had two giant babies with no stretch marks. I hear that's a sign of having "thicker" skin (or maybe just stronger skin?) than other people.

[Sworder]

There won't be a measurable difference in skin thickness with a BF caliper. I think it's genetics and age which determine stretchmarks from childbirth. The younger you are the more susceptible you are to it.