First Cycle Full Detail + Stats

[xxcjtxx]

Planning my first cycle and getting everything together to do it right. Been researching and for the past 2 years and believe I am ready. I will visit endocrinologist before and after cycle to get everything checked out and blood work done.

Stats:
Age: 20 (here comes the bashing)
Height: 6' 2"
Weight: 200
BF: 9%
Lifting: 4 years consistently
Diet now: 2800 Calories (45c/30p/25f) (maintenance)
Diet during cycle: 4500 calories (45c/30p/25f) (bulk)
Body Type: Ectomorph

Been testing different diets for the past 2 years and found with my level of activity and metabolism I have to overeat by a large surplus to put on weight. Any additional fat I can cut after cycle pretty quick.

Cycle:
Weeks 1 - 12 Test E 500mg (250mg monday / 250mg thursday)
Weeks 1 - 14 Liquidex .25mg EOD (bump to .5mg EOD if gyno/water retention occur)
Weeks 1- 13 HCG 250iu EOD (bump to 500 EOD if testicular atrophy occurs)

PCT:
Weeks 14 - 15 Liquid Clomi 100mg ED
Weeks 14 - 15 Nolvadex 40mg ED
Weeks 16 - 17 Liquid Clomi 50mg ED
Weeks 16 - 17 Nolvadex 20mg ED

Drawing up HCG with 29ga 1/2 needle. Switching out needles to another sterile 29ga and injecting sub Q.

Drawing up Test with 20ga 1 1/2 needle. Switching out to a new 22ga 1 1/2 needle to inject. Will rotate between both quads and both glutes. Always aspirating.

Will warm test with hands before injecting. Will clean tops of bottles with alcohol swap and injection site. Will also wear sterile powder free gloves as an added precaution. Injection will be slow and smooth and I will massage oil in for 1-3 minutes after injection to insure full absorption into the muscle.

Other than that I will be training my ass off.

Please post with any advice/modifications you might have to this cycle to insure I have chalked everything out correctly.

With a cycle this basic, and ran correctly, I dont see myself messing up my endocrine system. Like I said though, before starting I will consult an endocrinologist and get checked out.

Thank you in advance.

I have attached a picture of the base I have built naturally.

[marcus300]

There isn't an exact age were we all stop developing and growing because this is determined by our genes and DNA, we are all genetically programmed individually and we inherit our genes from our parents. To give an exact age we stop growing would be incorrect because everyone's genetic blueprint is different.The main development of our bodies is up to the age of 21yrs of age but this can vary between individuals. There are parts of our bodies what carry on developing and adjusting slowly up until the age of 25yrs old, an example of this is the brain. The Endocrine system is a part of the brain what is very complex and keeps our bodies in a homeostasis state. Our testosterone levels start raising and roughly peak around 25yrs old and then start to slowly decline, so even though some of us may have stopped growing at the age of 21yrs old, others may still be developing up until the age of 25yrs old.

I have recently spoken to my Endo regarding this matter and he tells me that the HPTA is very sensitive and as many pathways how it regulates the human body, he states steroids disrupt the normal balance of hormones in the body which can cause reversible and irreversible changes at any age but risks are far more if you administrate exogenous androgens during development, this will put you in a very unnatural environment at a crucial time and your hormones should be treated with care especially in the early stages of maturity. The adverse effects can be erratic behaviour of the HPTA and potentially therapy when your older.

I did ask him what age he would think would be the safest as far as risk to damages and he said many endocrinologist suggest full maturation is reached by 25 years of age and this would also give the HPTA time to be established with your natural hormone balance and patterns. I personally feel 24-25yrs old would also be ideal starting point to get bloodwrok drawn to see exact what your natural levels are before starting any kind of cycles and waiting till you have reach your testosterone peak would be a good starting point, for me there is to much evidence over the forums and what I've seen personally over the last 25yrs I've been bodybuilding. Obviously it isn't going to be all 19- 21yr old bodybuilders who suffer side effects what are irreversible but I am edging on the side of caution what age I advice to the newbies.
Marcus

[marcus300]

AGE
In humans your Endocrine system is not fully functional until an average age of 25yrs, although the main development is up to around 21yrs it still fluctuates a little bit up to its fully functional age. There is a risk of permanently damaging your HPTA if you take AAS to young and you could end up with symptoms of andropause and HRT for life. Symptoms could be Limp dick, low libido, depression, low energy, low endurance, erection problems and many more but.......are these the types of symptoms you want to have in your 20's?. Believe me its hard to cope with these in your 40's yet alone in your prime of your life.

Around this age your Testosterone levels are the highest they going to be in your life naturally, so use what you have and don't take the risk of damage, I am passionate about this because ive seen it many times with young kids wanting to looking like their heroes and they think the answer is in an injection/tablet.

Taking AAS to young can also cause problems with development, one other main problem is premature sealing of your epiphyeal bone and the consequences mean that you wont grow as big as your genetics could allow you to, there is a test which can be done to see if your growth plates have sealed yet but the average age is around 21yrs old.



TRAINING
You need a few years of hard training under your belt before even considering taking any kind of anabolic support, people who jump on a cycle to soon without having some quality years under their belt usually results in injuries, it takes time to develop your connective tissue, tendons and nervous system to heavy overload training. Slowly getting your own system use to these kinds of extreme's will only help in muscle growth later on when you do decide to start taking AAS.

Build a solid foundation for muscle tissue to grow and maintaining and development will be far greater than without it. Many younger guys will start cycling before they have reached their genetic potential which is crazy when a good solid diet and training program will be far beneficial and productive to muscle building.

Workouts should be mainly focused on basic movements with a priority of over loading the muscle each and ever time you train, increasing your strength and ability to lift in proper form will help with building the foundation for future development


DIET
A lot of younger bodybuilders don't know how to eat. Researching and understanding how your own body responds will help you get to your natural limit, the right food at the right time and a full understanding of proteins,carbs, and fats will only help you succeed in achieving your natural goals. Keeping a diet diary will also help you understand the importance of macro, nutrients, calories and should help you see in which areas you could be going wrong in adding lean muscle tissue.

No matter how much anabolic support you have it will be worthless without proper nutrition, food will help build and maintain your valued muscle weather its natural, cycling or in PCT. Adjusting your food intake and consuming muscle building foods coupled with a solid training program will help you achieve your natural limit and foundation before you start AAS use.

This area is a huge problem with the younger guys and I can't express enough how important diet/food is when first starting out, post and pre training nutrition are very important and understanding how to load and feed the body will help push growth and create a very natural anabolic environment.

[xxcjtxx]

i have read all of these prior to planning my cycle.

When I said I have done my research for the past 2 years I wasn't speaking lightly. I appreciate your posting though so others can read this information when they open this thread.

I would like some information on my post though.

[Capebuffalo]

Your natural testosterone is soaring through your body right now. Take advantage of it. Don't shut it down. Why ? I just don't understand. You have a high level of the purest test known. Why not take advantage of it.

[OnTheSauce]

Also, you can grow a lot more looking at your picture. No where close to your potential. My biggest regret was using aas while I still had natural potential. Your cycle itself is laid out well, and mentally you sound competent to run it. But unfortunately, your age makes it a terrible decision. Please don't risk permanent damage while u still have much room to grow naturally.

[xxcjtxx]

Also, you can grow a lot more looking at your picture. No where close to your potential. My biggest regret was using aas while I still had natural potential. Your cycle itself is laid out well, and mentally you sound competent to run it. But unfortunately, your age makes it a terrible decision. Please don't risk permanent damage while u still have much room to grow naturally.

Would running this cycle and PCTing correctly shut down my natural test forever, or just increase the chances? What exactly makes it a terrible decision? Everyone is making it seem like its a guarantee my body will be messed up just because of my age.

[Lunk1]

Let me first say thank you for the well researched cycle plan and maturity, next let me congratulate you on what you have dose this far. You have a nice lean physique with quality muscle mass and what appear to be good genetics to add size.

With that being said, it is no gaurantee that use of AAS at your age will shutdown your HPTA forever but it is indeed a risk for everyone who uses. Consider the possibility of dealing with perm HPTA issues (even from one time) such as Low T as well as all of the issues surounding low T. Now at my age (40) I face the same risks although, the fact that I am facing the possible need for HRT soon makes it less of s deterent. You on the other hand could be facing an extra 20 years of HRT when you already have a suffciant amount of test in your body...and then some!

Next consider your Endo system. is a few pounds of added muscle being put on a bit faster than you would put it on naturally really worth causing issues with the growth and formation of your skeletal system? Unless you have plans to make money from this for a living...the question is, why risk it?

Again...thank you for a post that far exceeds the quality of most with 10 years or more your senior

[breakbones]

Good Post!

Regardless I know your going to do what you want. So Your G2G

[xxcjtxx]

Thank you, I am not taking this lightly at all, I understand there are some major pros and cons to this decision and that is why I posted here to make sure I am getting multiple opinions and some real world experience to help me make the decision. I am glad someone can read my post for what it is worth and not just look at my age, scroll down, and start bashing me. Like I said, this post has been years in the making. I am the kind of guy that looks up every ingredient to a medication or supplement before letting it anywhere near me.



This is the way I have been looking at it:

If you take steroids to get to your "natural potential", which really is just the level of muscle mass your body can maintain with the amount of natural testosterone your body produces, then you are reaching the end goal way before you would naturally. If you reach your "natural potential" naturally, then decide to take steroids, as soon as you come off, your natural levels of testosterone wouldnt be able to maintain the new growth and you would lose it anyways.

So why would anyone wait until they reach their natural potential to take steroids? Unless of course they plan to be on them for the rest of their lives.

Everyone, starting in their 30's, goes through testosterone declines. They will start losing size, increasing body fat, and have trouble getting it up. Its a gradual downhill slope from 30-death. I see myself combating these effects with testosterone later in life anyways.

That other picture was from about 6 months ago. Here is another one from about 5 minutes ago.

[Lunk1]

If your endo says your not fully developed yet, will you still run this cycle?

[xxcjtxx]

If your endo says your not fully developed yet, will you still run this cycle?

Will he be able to determine that?

What kind of tests does that require?

And if he says I am not fully developed then no, I will not run this cycle.

[MickeyKnox]

Would running this cycle and PCTing correctly shut down my natural test forever, or just increase the chances? What exactly makes it a terrible decision? Everyone is making it seem like its a guarantee my body will be messed up just because of my age.

You obviously did NOT read what Marcus has written. If you did, you would clearly have a solid idea on why this is a terrible decision. Not to mention, your own Endo has cautioned you! Geez...do you sledge hammer across your face to get the point?

[OnTheSauce]

Your chest needs a lot of work. You should focus on some dumbbell work for a while. Specifically incline.

[pitchindude]

You seem like you've done your research and put a lot of thought and effort into this, which is more than I can say for most of the younger guys who come through here. But think hard on it...it's a major decision that really can cause a multitude of problems further down the road.

Maybe you should hold off another year, or two, and work hard. Beyond giving your HPTA more time to finish developing, you still have lots of room for natural growth so why not take advantage of the river of natural test pumping through you body now? Rather than inject synthetic stuff into your body.

I understand the points you're making, we all do. I don't think you could find 10 guys who lift seriously that haven't had the same idea at your age. Personally I'd love to start cycling now at 23, but I don't want to take the risks of future health issues (I've got enough of them now).

But I digress... So...if you're dead set on doing it now it looks like you've got it pretty close to spot on. We would all prefer you held off on cycling but can't force you too. I wish you the best of luck.

[crazy mike]

Your chest needs a lot of work. You should focus on some dumbbell work for a while. Specifically incline.

Yep , lacking upper chest and shoulder tie-in. Incline bench, and more incline bench. It will fill you out, where your upper chest works into those shoulders and thicken you out. Good luck . ...crazy mike

[xxcjtxx]

Yep , lacking upper chest and shoulder tie-in. Incline bench, and more incline bench. It will fill you out, where your upper chest works into those shoulders and thicken you out. Good luck . ...crazy mike

My chest develops much slower than the rest of my body. I have been hitting incline/decline consistently since I began lifting. It took me 2 years to get anything out of it.

I thought it was because I had low T at first but I just got my levels checked and my free test is at 125 which is on the higher end of 35-155

and Total test is 820 which is also relatively high for the 250-1100 range.

I hit every muscle group twice a week, some groups just develop faster than others.

Regardless, is there a test that an endocrinologist can do to see if I am fully developed?

[Lunk1]

Adrenal cortex (ah-DREE-nul KOR-tex):Outer layer of the adrenal glands, which secretes cortisol and aldosterone. Adrenal glands (ah-DREE-nul):Glands located on top of each kidney consisting of an outer layer (adrenal cortex) and an inner layer (adrenal medulla). Adrenal medulla (ah-DREE-nul muh-DUH-luh):Inner layer of the adrenal glands, which secretes epinephrine and norepinephrine. Adrenocorticotropic hormone (ah-dree-no-kor-tikoh-TROH-pik):Hormone secreted by the anterior pituitary that stimulates the adrenal cortex to secrete cortisol. Aldosterone (al-DOS-te-rone):Hormone secreted by the adrenal cortex that controls the salt and water balance in the body. Androgens (AN-dro-jens):Hormones that control male secondary sex characteristics. Antidiuretic hormone (an-tee-die-yu-REH-tik HOR-mone):Hormone produced by the hypothalamus and stored in the posterior pituitary that increases the absorption of water by the kidneys. Calcitonin (kal-si-TOE-nin):Hormone secreted by the thyroid gland that decreases calcium levels in the blood. Cortisol (KOR-ti-sol):Hormone secreted by the adrenal cortex that promotes the body's efficient use of nutrients during stressful situations. Epinephrine (ep-i-NEFF-rin):Also called adrenaline, a hormone secreted by the adrenal medulla that stimulates the body to react to stressful situations. Estrogens (ES-tro-jenz):Female steroid hormones secreted by the ovaries that bring about the secondary sex characteristics and regulate the female reproductive cycle. Gland:Any organ that secretes or excretes substances for further use in the body or for elimination. Glucagon (GLUE-ka-gon):Hormone secreted by the islets of Langerhans that raises the level of sugar in the blood. Gonad (GO-nad):Sex organ in which reproductive cells develop. Gonadotropic hormones (gon-ah-do-TROP-ik):Hormones secreted by the anterior pituitary that affect or stimulate the growth or activity of the gonads. Homeostasis (hoe-me-o-STAY-sis):Ability of the body or a cell to maintain the internal balance of its functions, such as steady temperature, regardless of outside conditions. Hypothalamus (hi-po-THAL-ah-mus):Region of the brain containing many control centers for body functions and emotions; also regulates the pituitary gland's secretions. Insulin (IN-suh-lin):Hormone secreted by the islets of Langerhans that regulates the amount of sugar in the blood. Islets of Langerhans (EYE-lets of LAHNG-er-hanz):Endocrine cells of the pancreas that secrete insulin and glucagon. Luteinizing hormone (loo-tee-in-EYE-zing):Gonadotropic hormone secreted by the anterior pituitary that stimulates, in women, ovulation and the release of estrogens and progesterone by the ovaries and, in men, the secretion of testosterone by the testes. Melatonin (mel-a-TOE-nin):Hormone secreted by the pineal gland that helps set the body's twenty-four-hour clock and plays a role in the timing of puberty and sexual development. Metabolism (muh-TAB-uh-lizm):Sum of all the physiological processes by which an organism maintains life. Negative feedback:Control system in which a stimulus initiates a response that reduces the stimulus, thereby stopping the response. Norepinephrine (nor-ep-i-NEFF-rin):Also called noradrenaline, a hormone secreted by the adrenal medulla that raises blood pressure during stressful situations. Ovaries (O-var-eez):Female gonads in which ova (eggs) are produced and that secrete estrogens and progesterone. Oxytocin (ahk-si-TOE-sin):Hormone produced by the hypothalamus and stored in the posterior pituitary that stimulates contraction of the uterus during childbirth and secretion of milk during nursing. Parathyroid glands (pair-ah-THIGH-roid):Four small glands located on the posterior surface of the thyroid gland that regulate calcium levels in the blood. Pineal gland (PIN-ee-al):Gland located deep in the rear portion of the brain that helps establish the body's day-night cycle. Pituitary gland (pi-TOO-i-tair-ee):Gland located below the hypothalamus that controls and coordinates the secretions of other endocrine glands. Progesterone (pro-JESS-te-rone):Female steroid hormone secreted by the ovaries that makes the uterus more ready to receive a fertilized ovum or egg. Prolactin (pro-LAK-tin):Gonadotropic hormone secreted by the anterior pituitary that stimulates the mammary glands to produce milk. Testes (TESS-teez):Male gonads that produce sperm cells and secrete testosterone. Testosterone (tess-TAHS-ter-ohn):Hormone secreted by the testes that spurs the growth of the male reproductive organs and secondary sex characteristics. Thymosin (thigh-MOE-sin):Hormone secreted by the thymus that changes a certain group of lymphocytes into germ-fighting T cells. Thymus (THIGH-mus):Glandular organ consisting of lymphoid tissue located behind the top of the breastbone that produces specialized lymphocytes; reaches maximum development in early childhood and is almost absent in adults. Thyroid gland (THIGH-roid):Gland wrapped around the front and sides of the trachea at the base of the throat just below the larynx that affects growth and metabolism. Thyroxine (thigh-ROK-seen):Hormone secreted by the thyroid gland that regulates the rate of metabolism and, in children, affects growth.
Each type of hormone affects only specific tissue cells or organs, called target cells or target organs. Each target cell has receptors on its membrane or inside of it to which a particular hormone can attach or bind. Only once this binding has occurred does the hormone bring about a change in the workings of a cell. Some hormones affect nearly every cell in the body; others affect only a single organ. Some cells have numerous receptors, acting as a target cell for many different hormones.


This is your edocrine system. I doubt there is a way to test to see if each and every part is fully developed as they work seperately from each.Through research they have found that the average males system is still growing until mid 20's as Marcus pointed out. Use of AAS before full development can effect the growth of this system and cause major issues for a young adult.

I could be wrong about testing the endocrine ..if so hopefully someone will advise.

[Tron3219]

My chest develops much slower than the rest of my body. I have been hitting incline/decline consistently since I began lifting. It took me 2 years to get anything out of it.

I thought it was because I had low T at first but I just got my levels checked and my free test is at 125 which is on the higher end of 35-155

and Total test is 820 which is also relatively high for the 250-1100 range.

I hit every muscle group twice a week, some groups just develop faster than others.

Regardless, is there a test that an endocrinologist can do to see if I am fully developed?

I didn't read through this whole thread (especially lunks dictionary insert lol), so forgive me if this has been addressed, but ur natty test is quite high. U should b seeing great growth...but what's ur diet look like? I see where u had ur macros and cals, but exactly what does it look like. And what r ur cals and macros training naturally?

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

[songdog]

Bro if your diet was dialed in correctly you wouldnt be looking for a quick fix.Beacuse you are really not ready for aas.And I aint talking about your age.And excuses dont cut it here beacuse we have heard them all.

[Lunk1]

I didn't read through this whole thread (especially lunks dictionary insert lol), so forgive me if this has been addressed, but ur natty test is quite high. U should b seeing great growth...but what's ur diet look like? I see where u had ur macros and cals, but exactly what does it look like. And what r ur cals and macros training naturally?

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

Suck it....

[Tron3219]

Suck it....

I lied...I read it....u got me

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

[JAB1]

There isn't an exact age were we all stop developing and growing because this is determined by our genes and DNA, we are all genetically programmed individually and we inherit our genes from our parents. To give an exact age we stop growing would be incorrect because everyone's genetic blueprint is different.The main development of our bodies is up to the age of 21yrs of age but this can vary between individuals. There are parts of our bodies what carry on developing and adjusting slowly up until the age of 25yrs old, an example of this is the brain. The Endocrine system is a part of the brain what is very complex and keeps our bodies in a homeostasis state. Our testosterone levels start raising and roughly peak around 25yrs old and then start to slowly decline, so even though some of us may have stopped growing at the age of 21yrs old, others may still be developing up until the age of 25yrs old.

I have recently spoken to my Endo regarding this matter and he tells me that the HPTA is very sensitive and as many pathways how it regulates the human body, he states steroids disrupt the normal balance of hormones in the body which can cause reversible and irreversible changes at any age but risks are far more if you administrate exogenous androgens during development, this will put you in a very unnatural environment at a crucial time and your hormones should be treated with care especially in the early stages of maturity. The adverse effects can be erratic behaviour of the HPTA and potentially therapy when your older.

I did ask him what age he would think would be the safest as far as risk to damages and he said many endocrinologist suggest full maturation is reached by 25 years of age and this would also give the HPTA time to be established with your natural hormone balance and patterns. I personally feel 24-25yrs old would also be ideal starting point to get bloodwrok drawn to see exact what your natural levels are before starting any kind of cycles and waiting till you have reach your testosterone peak would be a good starting point, for me there is to much evidence over the forums and what I've seen personally over the last 25yrs I've been bodybuilding. Obviously it isn't going to be all 19- 21yr old bodybuilders who suffer side effects what are irreversible but I am edging on the side of caution what age I advice to the newbies.
Marcus

Great info as always Marcus.

Got me thinking(this is in no way an argument for early aas use, as I am against based on knowledge acquired here) but, docs put girls on birth control at like 14. That is a hormone manipulator, is their any correlation on the body, endo, etc, between male aas use and female hormone manipulation via birth control?? Just a thought...

[songdog]

Bro your plumming and a girls are a lot different.

[xxcjtxx]

Bro if your diet was dialed in correctly you wouldnt be looking for a quick fix.Beacuse you are really not ready for aas.And I aint talking about your age.And excuses dont cut it here beacuse we have heard them all.

I have been training for 4 years consistantly, I dont think I fit into the category of "looking for a quick fix".

My diet is solid I eat clean, in a caloric surplus, and with a minimum of 200g of protein a day. My diet is in check, that isnt the issue. I am growing, I dont deny that, just not at the pace I would like to. I just figured I would be a lot bigger than I am after lifting for the amount of time that I have been.

[panntastic]

I have been training for 4 years consistantly, I dont think I fit into the category of "looking for a quick fix".

My diet is solid I eat clean, in a caloric surplus, and with a minimum of 200g of protein a day. My diet is in check, that isnt the issue. I am growing, I dont deny that, just not at the pace I would like to. I just figured I would be a lot bigger than I am after lifting for the amount of time that I have been.

You contradicted yourself there in my opinion.
If your not growing quick enough your not training hard enough or eating enough in my eyes.
I don't want to hear hard gainer nonsense because that's crap
If you want to grow you need to eat
You say a minimum of 200g protein a day?
This tells me you haven't worked out your macros correctly if you don't know what exact figure your aiming for.
Just my thoughts

[xxcjtxx]

You contradicted yourself there in my opinion.
If your not growing quick enough your not training hard enough or eating enough in my eyes.
I don't want to hear hard gainer nonsense because that's crap
If you want to grow you need to eat
You say a minimum of 200g protein a day?
This tells me you haven't worked out your macros correctly if you don't know what exact figure your aiming for.
Just my thoughts

I cant get an exact number because there is no exact number. It always changes because your body is always changing. If you are bulking for 4 months, you think you are going to have the exact same grams of protein per day at the beginning than you do at the end of the bulk? Thats why I put my macros are 45/30/25, but regardless if I am bulking or cutting, the number of grams of protein is over 200g. Thats why I said that. If you want me to give you an exact number for every time I gain a pound I can do that, a little bit unnecessary though.

Its cool that some people can look at my age, then look at the research and make a valid conclusion about what they think about what I am presenting, but others that look at my age then bash every little thing and try to belittle what I am saying purely because of that, aren't proving anything.

I was 155 at 7-10% body fat when I started 4 years ago. I am now 194 at 7-9% body fat.

This is getting completely off topic. Its almost like you are digging as deep as possible and trying to find anything you can BESIDES my age to turn me away from it. Like I said, I didnt come here having my mind made up, I came for advice from personal experiences and things of that nature. If you dont have an argument besides my age, dont go looking for one, just state that my age is the only reason and that is completely fine.

I never said at any point "If my age is the only thing making this a bad idea, then I'm going to do it!"

I haven't made up my mind. I am weighing out all the options and taking all of this information and personal experiences into account before I risk anything.

Shoutout to Lunk1.

[Lunk1]

"I was 155 at 7-10% body fat when I started 4 years ago. I am now 194 at 7-9% body fat."

40 lbs in 4 years without increasing BF....amazing job and a testiment to your ability to work hard.

Many ppl can't accomplish that WITH AAS. Keep chugging along and see what another 4 years get's you.

[Tron3219]

I cant get an exact number because there is no exact number. It always changes because your body is always changing. If you are bulking for 4 months, you think you are going to have the exact same grams of protein per day at the beginning than you do at the end of the bulk? Thats why I put my macros are 45/30/25, but regardless if I am bulking or cutting, the number of grams of protein is over 200g. Thats why I said that. If you want me to give you an exact number for every time I gain a pound I can do that, a little bit unnecessary though.

Its cool that some people can look at my age, then look at the research and make a valid conclusion about what they think about what I am presenting, but others that look at my age then bash every little thing and try to belittle what I am saying purely because of that, aren't proving anything.

I was 155 at 7-10% body fat when I started 4 years ago. I am now 194 at 7-9% body fat.

This is getting completely off topic. Its almost like you are digging as deep as possible and trying to find anything you can BESIDES my age to turn me away from it. Like I said, I didnt come here having my mind made up, I came for advice from personal experiences and things of that nature. If you dont have an argument besides my age, dont go looking for one, just state that my age is the only reason and that is completely fine.

I never said at any point "If my age is the only thing making this a bad idea, then I'm going to do it!"

I haven't made up my mind. I am weighing out all the options and taking all of this information and personal experiences into account before I risk anything.

Shoutout to Lunk1.

I like how ur keeping an open mind an not just being one of those snot nosed know it all punks. But just to give u first hand experience from me. When I was younger I did some stupid shit. Like running dbol only cycles, no pct or ai. Not long after that I ran sus dbol and some other shit. Again, no pct or ai. Now in 28 and have natural test levels in the low 300's. just take a look sometime at how old u hve to b to have normal levels in the low 300's. ehh fvck it, I'll tell u...like fvckin 70! Lol it sucks! Yeah, having a pct, ai and all that jazz may increas ur chances slightly of not permanently damaging ur endo system. But there's still a good chance that you will. And that's what we don't wanna see happen.

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

[debunked_skunk]

its amazing how many 25 and younger come on here and ask the same questions when mostly everybody is gonna tell you to wait.

im not knocking his knowledge but i agree with everybody else...PLEASE WAIT!! u have to give ur body sometime to mature. jus

tstick with creatine and preworkout. im not an expert on here, hell im still a newbie on here, but im 34..old enought to know im

finish growing and may need a lil help in the test;hgh department. my point is...we all know ur gonna do it...so why ask if u already

have your mind set to it????

[xxcjtxx]

I never said at any point "If my age is the only thing making this a bad idea, then I'm going to do it!"

I haven't made up my mind. I am weighing out all the options and taking all of this information and personal experiences into account before I risk anything.

my point is...we all know ur gonna do it...so why ask if u already

have your mind set to it????

.......


Anyways, I'm leaning toward waiting a couple more years and seeing what happens. Still doing some more research though.

[Times Roman]

I'm not comfortable advising a 20 year old on how to use steroids................

.........many here feel the same way.

We are not paid to be here, so the advice we give is something we can sleep with at night.

Good luck!

---Roman

[sixfootseven]

YOu should keep training naturally until you are 25, then you will have the base and knowledge to take full advantage of exposing yourself to these risks. If you do this now, when you are 25 you are going to wish you would have stayed natty longer

[JAB1]

Bro your plumming and a girls are a lot different.

HEy man, not sure what plumming means. But yeah that was my question, are females, and the hormones they take different on the body, etc than males taking hormones. Either way I now see I was derailing thread either way. Thread just got me thinking. I am 34 so any education I seek on the young and hormones is for educational pupose only. Thanks.