First Cycle Cypionate 400mg /week

[Zigg]

First Cycle Cypionate 400mg/ Week
Greetings Everyone,

After extensive research I have decided to start cycling, I have my Primary Care and an Endo on board to assist me in this process.

Age >26, Height 5'10", Weight 160, Body Fat 12%

Diet: 2500+ Calories, High protein, High Carb, Low fat, Low Salt, Low Sugar.

Exercise: 3day split 1 day rest, limited cardio.

Protocol Background: I have been running Test Cypionate E3D @200mg, so 400 per week. Only. No AI, No HCG.
Currently I am on week 7 of 12. PCT 14days after last pin, Nolva40/Clomid 100 for 3 weeks.

Labs: Normal, Starting Test was around 470 ng/dL (ill detail these later)

Physical effects: have been minimal, I notice moderate strength increase, my weight initially dropped slightly to 155, I assume this is due to a reduction of fat, and has now increased to 163.

Side effects: Moderate acne on Chest, Back, Legs. Moderate joint inflammation, Wrists, Knees. Moderate increased sex drive. No water retention from what I can tell.

Addressing your concerns: I know there is a recommendation that you start cycling after reaching optimal genetic limit, no need to reiterate. Not running AI, as this is the first cycle I want the mid cycle lab report to give me as pure data as I can get, I have no symptoms of gyno and have an anastrozole and tamoxifen on hand.

My questions for you:

AI: Why run AI from the start if not necessary? is this for larger stacks/ dose cycles? to prevent aromatization.
or just to maximize the conversation of test?

PCT: Should I attempt this first cycle without PCT to evaluate my body's ability to restart natural production?

Acne: I am taking Zinc and B5... any other recommendations?

Tendons/Joints: Any suggestions to preserve/strengthen tendons? I hear HGH and Deca are beneficial for tendons? Does Test weaken tendons? or does it only increases strength faster than the rate at which tendons can build, making them more prone to injury?

Cycle length: Could/Should I extend the Test Cycle past 12 weeks? Pro's and Con's?

Next Cycle: Changes, Recommendations? How much should I increase the dosage? should I add a stack? Should I run test only? Same dosage? AI?

Also, I understand some of the questions asked above are answered throughout the forum and the web, but there is a variety of opinions and I would just like to get some fresh perspective.

Ill post a follow up when I update labs before and after PCT.

[Octaneforce]

First Cycle Cypionate 400mg/ Week
Greetings Everyone,

After extensive research I have decided to start cycling, I have my Primary Care and an Endo on board to assist me in this process.

Age >26, Height 5'10", Weight 160, Body Fat 12%

Diet: 2500+ Calories, High protein, High Carb, Low fat, Low Salt, Low Sugar.

Exercise: 3day split 1 day rest, limited cardio.

Protocol Background: I have been running Test Cypionate E3D @200mg, so 400 per week. Only. No AI, No HGC.
Currently I am on week 7 of 12. PCT 14days after last pin, Nolva40/Clomid 100 for 3 weeks.

Labs: Normal, Starting Test was around 470 ng/dL (ill detail these later)

Physical effects: have been minimal, I notice moderate strength increase, my weight initially dropped slightly to 155, I assume this is due to a reduction of fat, and has now increased to 163.

Side effects: Moderate acne on Chest, Back, Legs. Moderate joint inflammation, Wrists, Knees. Moderate increased sex drive. No water retention from what I can tell.

Addressing your concerns: I know there is a recommendation that you start cycling after reaching optimal genetic limit, no need to reiterate. Not running AI, as this is the first cycle I want the mid cycle lab report to give me as pure data as I can get, I have no symptoms of gyno and have an anastrozole and tamoxifen on hand.

My questions for you:

AI: Why run AI from the start if not necessary? is this for larger stacks/ dose cycles? to prevent aromatization.
or just to maximize the conversation of test?
Yes it is usually neccesary but its a heated debate. Estrogen is thought to be anabolic and help with bulking, but its also a carcinogen that can come with a host of side affects. I usually start my ai after a week or two into the cycle and i keep it low unless i feel bloated or emotional
PCT: Should I attempt this first cycle without PCT to evaluate my body's ability to restart natural production?
Absolutely do not skip pct. your only 26 so with pct you should recover. Dont roll the dice and test yourself without pct drugs. Youll end up miserable and lose gains. Yo should really be using hcg with this cycle.
Acne: I am taking Zinc and B5... any other recommendations?

Tendons/Joints: Any suggestions to preserve/strengthen tendons? I hear HGH and Deca are beneficial for tendons? Does Test weaken tendons? or does it only increases strength faster than the rate at which tendons can build, making them more prone to injury?
U dont need deca or hgh yet. A hearty diet along with animal flex will probably be enough. You are kind of light for your height so if you feel something about to break/tear stay off of it. Animal flex is one of my favorite supplements for this
Cycle length: Could/Should I extend the Test Cycle past 12 weeks? Pro's and Con's?
Stop when the gains stop. On cyp you may gain into week 14-15. I usually just go until i run out of gear lol. Your definitely not eating enough if you only gained 3lbs. Step up the calories big time
Next Cycle: Changes, Recommendations? How much should I increase the dosage? should I add a stack? Should I run test only? Same dosage? AI?
If you gain well on this cycle you can just do the same cycle again. Maybe step up the test dose next time.
Also, I understand some of the questions asked above are answered throughout the forum and the web, but there is a variety of opinions and I would just like to get some fresh perspective.

Ill post a follow up when I update labs before and after PCT.

You really need to eat more. Your literally wasting your time and money without enough food. Food will be your biggest cost during a cycle. 26 years old and only 160? Cmon man not tryin to be mean but you have so much more potential to unlock. Im only 5.5 ans i was 165 and probably the same bodyfat as u before i ever cycled. 2500 calories isnt nearly enough. Extend this cycle to 15 weeks and eat everything in sight. This is your first cycle so dont waste it. You lost weight initially bc your metabolism sped up. Happy training!

[kelkel]

Why no HCG? Don't like your testicals?

[Zigg]

Why no HCG? Don't like your testicals?

As typically recommended you should start with the bare minimum.

One, I would like to see labs with only Test to get a base line.

Two, my doctor has been reluctant to prescribe it, stating that there are requirements requested by insurance prior.

Three, my testicles have not stopped functioning, still got my cum shot and my balls have maybe lost 5% volume if any?

Four, I would only run towards the end of the cycle to encourage natural test production and bridge the gap between Cycle and PCT.

[Zigg]

You really need to eat more. Your literally wasting your time and money without enough food. Food will be your biggest cost during a cycle. 26 years old and only 160? Cmon man not tryin to be mean but you have so much more potential to unlock. Im only 5.5 ans i was 165 and probably the same bodyfat as u before i ever cycled. 2500 calories isnt nearly enough. Extend this cycle to 15 weeks and eat everything in sight. This is your first cycle so dont waste it. You lost weight initially bc your metabolism sped up. Happy training!

When I started my cycle my purpose was to assist recovery for an acute injury. tbh I took a break from lifting the first 2 weeks when starting my cycle. I am happy with the current results, my diet is clean, but yeah I agree I could eat more. Though I am not overly concerned with mass, I focus more on functional strength and form.

Its not cheap by any means, but my gear and pct is covered by my insurance.

[kelkel]

As typically recommended you should start with the bare minimum.

One, I would like to see labs with only Test to get a base line.
This is a cycle, not TRT. Run HCG.

Two, my doctor has been reluctant to prescribe it, stating that there are requirements requested by insurance prior.
So source it yourself. It's easy.

Three, my testicles have not stopped functioning, still got my cum shot and my balls have maybe lost 5% volume if any
That's ridiculous and has nothing to do with testicular well being and function.

Four, I would only run towards the end of the cycle to encourage natural test production and bridge the gap between Cycle and PCT.
Zero need to shut them down in the first place.

above

[Faacus]

I love this first cycle with cypionate 400 @week. anastrozole 0.25 eod is a good starting point and bloodwork in mid cycle to check estrogen and if the juice is good. No problem of acne during only test. make sure the diet is on point. Seem low in calories. Proper caloric intake and a good training program will allow you to earn 16-20 lbs. Good luck

[Zigg]

above

1. HGC is often prescribed to HRT patients to maintain testicular function and size.

2. I'm working to legally obtain the drug. thanks.

3. The degree of shutdown is equal to the dosage and stack and various other factors. Ill be getting labs shortly and we can take a look at my FSH and LH to see how shut down it is. Testicular size is a side effect of shut down.

4. HGC itself causes a negative feedback loop on FSH, and can result in dependancy. I would only use HCG towards the end of a cycle to restart testicular production of testosterone before PCT, not to maintain natural production throughout the entire cycle and risk causing dependancy.

5. The less drugs i need to use to maintain an equilibrium the better, once I start stacking and adding things in without first knowing how I am reacting to one drug is naive, reckless, and impatient.

6. Your short handed responses are not welcomed please feel free to remove yourself

[kelkel]

1. HGC is often prescribed to HRT patients to maintain testicular function and size.
We know that.

2. I'm working to legally obtain the drug. thank
Good. Just watch your cost. Often times it's just easier ordering over-seas. and much cheaper.

3. The degree of shutdown is equal to the dosage and stack and various other factors. Ill be getting labs shortly and we can take a look at my FSH and LH to see how shut down it is. Testicular size is a side effect of shut down

Wrong. How quickly you're shut down is the only real variable. Test will shut you down a little slower but your LH/FSH will be basically zeroed out. For example one shot of deca will shut you down immediately. TRT patients on extremely minor doses are completely shut down. I've seen thousands of peoples blood work which reflects it.

4. HGC itself causes a negative feedback loop on FSH, and can result in dependancy. I would only use HCG towards the end of a cycle to restart testicular production of testosterone before PCT, not to maintain natural production throughout the entire cycle and risk causing dependancy.

So by your logic Dr. Crisler, Dr. Saya, Nelson Vergel and multiple other world renowned people in the TRT field are wrong in strongly recommending HCG? Dependency, no. Show me a study supporting this. You are already shut down from testosterone. HCG at this point is only mimicking LH, not stimulating endogenous production of it.
5. The less drugs i need to use to maintain an equilibrium the better, once I start stacking and adding things in without first knowing how I am reacting to one drug is naive, reckless, and impatient.

There's logic there.

6. Your short handed responses are not welcomed please feel free to remove yourself

Sorry if my being blunt bothers you. Be well.

[Zigg]

Youre right, I should refer to rather the speed at which your natural production recovers rather than the degree of shut down. A longer cycle with multiple medications and stacks may prolong or hinder the recovery, but yes at the same time the purpose of HGC is to assist in the recovery of natural production. With as simple of a cycle I am running, I am not sure it will be entirely necessary, beneficial perhaps, but if I never have a control sample to reference I will not know how great or minimal the benefit is.

Similar controversy surrounds not running an AI, people would argue that I should be running from day one on my first cycle.
But i havent heard you mention a single opinion or given any perspective on that question.

I would argue that I need a control to reference my hormone levels before progressing or adding a medication to correct something that is only assumed.

[Mr.BB]

1. HGC is often prescribed to HRT patients to maintain testicular function and size.

2. I'm working to legally obtain the drug. thanks.

3. The degree of shutdown is equal to the dosage and stack and various other factors. Ill be getting labs shortly and we can take a look at my FSH and LH to see how shut down it is. Testicular size is a side effect of shut down.

4. HGC itself causes a negative feedback loop on FSH, and can result in dependancy. I would only use HCG towards the end of a cycle to restart testicular production of testosterone before PCT, not to maintain natural production throughout the entire cycle and risk causing dependancy.

5. The less drugs i need to use to maintain an equilibrium the better, once I start stacking and adding things in without first knowing how I am reacting to one drug is naive, reckless, and impatient.

6. Your short handed responses are not welcomed please feel free to remove yourself

Dude, you are talking back to someone who is trying to help you, someone that probably studies steroid effects longer than you are alive, if you dont like truthful answers you are not in the right place.

[Chrisp83TRT]

Yo zigg, HcG has huge benefits to the body besides keeping your berries plump.
Show alittle class to people that have been in this game for years. They know better

[cousinmuscles]

Youre right, I should refer to rather the speed at which your natural production recovers rather than the degree of shut down. A longer cycle with multiple medications and stacks may prolong or hinder the recovery, but yes at the same time the purpose of HGC is to assist in the recovery of natural production. With as simple of a cycle I am running, I am not sure it will be entirely necessary, beneficial perhaps, but if I never have a control sample to reference I will not know how great or minimal the benefit is.

Similar controversy surrounds not running an AI, people would argue that I should be running from day one on my first cycle.
But i havent heard you mention a single opinion or given any perspective on that question.

I would argue that I need a control to reference my hormone levels before progressing or adding a medication to correct something that is only assumed.

When your testicles no longer receive stimuli to continue working, it doesn't matter how harsh the cycle was, they stop working. The speed of shut down is irrelevant, you are guaranteed shut down before you get bloods anyway. HCG will not raise test that much at 500 iu per week, barely noticeable;

Attachment 172042

Figure 2 from: Coviello, A.D., Matsumoto, A.M., Bremner, W.J., Herbst, K.L., Amory, J.K., Anawalt, B.D., Sutton, P.R., Wright, W.W., Brown, T.R., Yan, X., et al. (2005). Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 90, 2595-2602.

Serum T during the treatment phase by group. Values are the mean SEM (bars). The shaded box represents the normal reference range of serum T in healthy men for this assay. Serum T increased from baseline in all four groups in response to TE (200 mg, im, weekly; P0.05) and remained elevated during the treatment phase. The two higher hCG dose groups (250 and 500 IU, sc, every other day) had serum T levels above the normal range during the treatment phase.

The above graph shows that 125 IU HCG E2D (438 IU/wk) did not significantly affect T production in 6 healthy young male volunteers receiving 200 mg T-Eth per week. However both 250 IU E2D (875 IU/wk) and 500 IU E2D (1,750 IU/wk) were effective in increasing serum T levels. In both groups, there was an equivalent boost of about 10 nmol/L (~290 ng/dL).

Regarding adding medications only after realizing you need them - then ditch all ancillaries as the guys who wrote the stickies are dumb only to realize afterwards they weren't...

There isn't any controversy regarding AI. If you are going to use AAS that aromatize at cycle dosages there's no avoiding it, what you can do is get bloods to titrate your dose and use exemestane that doesn't affect lipids like arimidex. Unless you plan on doing some kind of ladyboy makeover, they apply (lots of) topical estrogen to achieve a feminine look...

Should you try going cold turkey with no PCT? No one is going to advise that and you will recover, what you will endure and for how long varies individually, but there is plenty of scientific research on PCT after reading AAS use vs no PCT so I don't understand why this is asked.

Your semen consists of only a couple percent sperms, the rest of the fluid isn't even produced in the testicles, so whatever you are trying to measure and your method is obsolete. HCG is simply an insurance that your testicles will not make the effectiveness of your PCT to lag behind.

[Zigg]

Following up,

These are my labs from 3 weeks ago, i took these before I administered my second weekly pin.

testosterone, total 1700 ng/dL
hematocrit, blood 44.4 %
estradiol, serum 62 pg/mL
(SGOT), serum 30 U/L
(SGPT), serum 32 U/L

After speaking with my endo, (he's well aware of the cycle), He confirmed some of my prior assumptions:

1. Unless your estradiol is off the chart it is more of a risk to administer an aromatase inhibitor than just test alone.
He explained that if you are experiencing no side effects you run the risk of lowering the estradiol too much causing more stress and imbalance on your endocrine system.

2. PCT - he again confirmed my assumption, that unless your FSH and LH did not "spark" after ending the cycle he recommended to recover cold turkey.

3. The last recommendation he gave me was to get a sperm count analysis, I wanted to mention this because its not something I hear referenced often on the forum.

My 12 week cycle is complete, I actually ended about 1 week early due to scheduling restraints that were limiting my access to weight train. I did not run an AI throughout cycle, I experienced no side effects. After 3 weeks of ending my cycle I experienced no side effects coming off. I feel the return to homeostasis, a very moderate grogginess waking up in the morning and more standard fatigue after the gym. But otherwise nothing I couldn't continue without a PCT. Overall ive gained around 15-20 pounds, ill be getting exact measurements within the next 3 months.

A lot of the instructions out there on the webs refer to body builders doing major stacks or being used after your natural potential has been met. For someone like myself just trying to reach my maximum potential more quickly than natural, I am not sure all of the bro science necessarily applies. My cycle was productive clean at Test Only 400mg/ml a week. That does is below the suggested standard first cycle of 500mg/ml. I had all the safety precautions on hand, AI, Nolva, Colmid. But I certainly did not need HGC which is highly recommended. So unless you are doing a huge stack, I would recommend you see how your body reacts to Test alone before stacking anything. Start Low and Slow.

And just to not sound hypocritical I will be running Nolva and Clomid PCT, but reiterate at 3 weeks post cycle, my body is at a point where I do NOT feel it is necessary

And in regard to sexual health, my testicles did not atrophy to a point that it was noticeable, my sex drive was high throughout cycle. The only side effect I experienced was some mild acne on my shoulders and chest.


Oh! one thing to mention, that is a side effect of weight training in general not just steroids. Range of motion and flexibility decrease significantly from weight training. I imagine this is a major cause of injury. Remember to stretch ! afterward, not before.


Please feel free to offer you debates or supports and suggestions.

I am likely going to administer the same protocol for my second cycle, I see no benefit at adding unknown variables at this point.
I will also follow up with post cycle labs soon.

[Mr.BB]

You have no understanding of what happened and whats happening to you.

Good luck.

[Couchlockd]

Your endo has about 35.9% accurate understanding as well.

He's close in his first statement regarding AI on trt,, but on full blast no.

[Arcânn]

Honestly it sounds like you got lucky more than anything. There have been people coming on this forum taking 350mg test with no AI and no HCG and ended up with gyno so bad they had to get surgery. And that was before their mid-cycle bloodwork. Others had extreme testicular atrophy and took several months to recover.

The thing I think you're failing to realize is that the effects of steroids vary WILDLY from one person to the next. Some people can do the standard 500mg test cycle for 12 weeks and do EVERY SINGLE THING right, including PCT, and end up shut down so bad they have to do TRT for life. There are others (I'm referring specifically to a coworker of mine) who can have no idea what they are doing and run a first cycle of 1000mg of test with I forget how much EQ and Deca with no AI or anything....and then somehow come up with the idea to use TREN AS A PCT!!!.....and he bounced back within a couple of weeks with little to no side effects. Everyone reacts differently, but based on others experiences, you got luckier than probably 98% of people who've ever run a cycle without AI, etc.

When you're running stuff that has several decades of research on the known effects even at lower doses, you need to run stuff like an AI at a bare minimum dose and see how it effects you in your bloodwork. The bare minimum doses couldn't crash your estrogen even if you weren't cycling.

I'm glad everything turned out okay for you, because all too often it doesn't.

[Windex]

I don't know what's worse, your ignorance or your arrogance to people who tried to help you.

[cousinmuscles]

I don't know what's worse, your ignorance or your arrogance to people who tried to help you.

Well, he did ask people for debate, support or suggestions in the last post...

[Zigg]

You cannot deny that this is a valid case study, and what sets mine apart is to have done it with less variables and the assistance of a medical professional. For you to deny my experience is naive and ignorant.

Lastly, I forgot to mention what the doc said regarding PCT. If I were to use PCT, he recommended Clomid over Nolva, due to the fact of Nolva being a mild AI. This makes sense, similar to why someone wouldn't use a arimidex during pct.

Again this is my case study and experience. I will continue to document and to preach, just as many members of this forum think its their responsibility to give medical advice without any sort of education in a medical field.

[Zigg]

You have no understanding of what happened and whats happening to you.

Good luck.

Hmmm... I believe I do, I did research and labs for a year prior, and am being monitored by an endocrinologist.

What medical degree do you have?

I also find it interesting how you make no mention regarding how awful my labs look after not running HCG or an AI on cycle...

[cousinmuscles]

You cannot deny that this is a valid case study, and what sets mine apart is to have done it with less variables and the assistance of a medical professional. For you to deny my experience is naive and ignorant.

Lastly, I forgot to mention what the doc said regarding PCT. If I were to use PCT, he recommended Clomid over Nolva, due to the fact of Nolva being a mild AI. This makes sense, similar to why someone wouldn't use a arimidex during pct.

Again this is my case study and experience. I will continue to document and to preach, just as many members of this forum think its their responsibility to give medical advice without any sort of education in a medical field.

There are plenty of studies proving a PCT is superior to going cold turkey from ASIH. Start with the basics mate read up on Dr Scally, his book is for free. At least you'll get a tiny piece of education in the medical field with this.

What you are providing is heresay on what you did, then took, with no way for anyone to verify you did any of that and if anything you took was legitimate products.

I'm denying your experiences because you are naive and ignorant.

[Mr.BB]

Hmmm... I believe I do, I did research and labs for a year prior, and am being monitored by an endocrinologist.

What medical degree do you have?

I also find it interesting how you make no mention regarding how awful my labs look after not running HCG or an AI on cycle...

Not going to tell you which degree I have or dont have.

How many endos do you actually know or met? If you actually knew a few you would understand that most of their patients and studies have nothing to do with sex hormones. Many only know what they learned in classes, as 99.8% of patients are about diabetes and thyroid disorders. Their knowledge about supraphysiological sex hormonal levels? Zero. They deal much more with women menopausal problems than with men.

There are some MDs, which have the subspecialty of andrology that do have a more deep understanding of male HPTA. Guessing your endo does not have this knowledge.

Here, in forum, we studied articles from renowned andrologists, as for example Dr. Michael Scally, which Cousin mentions above, and gather the collective knowledge of thousands of steroid users.

You want to rely on your single few weeks experience instead of years of knowledge? Its your body, your life, you can do whatever you want, I just fail to understand why are you are your trying to argue with us?!? What are you trying to achieve??

What bloodwork are you talking about? You just posted a few values, thats what you mean? Thats very incomplete, and even ignorant to even be mentioning it lol.

[SMYL_GR8]

Hmmm... I believe I do, I did research and labs for a year prior, and am being monitored by an endocrinologist.

What medical degree do you have?

I also find it interesting how you make no mention regarding how awful my labs look after not running HCG or an AI on cycle...

This is my first post in YEARS but couldn't resist. I actually am a doctor and the arrogance and hubris you display are not productive for you or anyone here. Please go show off elsewhere. No one here is impressed. We'll get back to our "bro science".

[guitarzan]

This is my first post in YEARS but couldn't resist. I actually am a doctor and the arrogance and hubris you display are not productive for you or anyone here. Please go show off elsewhere. No one here is impressed. We'll get back to our "bro science".

Well spoken, and welcome back!

[Windex]

Not going to tell you which degree I have or dont have.

How many endos do you actually know or met? If you actually knew a few you would understand that most of their patients and studies have nothing to do with sex hormones. Many only know what they learned in classes, as 99.8% of patients are about diabetes and thyroid disorders. Their knowledge about supraphysiological sex hormonal levels? Zero. They deal much more with women menopausal problems than with men.

There are some MDs, which have the subspecialty of andrology that do have a more deep understanding of male HPTA. Guessing your endo does not have this knowledge.

Here, in forum, we studied articles from renowned andrologists, as for example Dr. Michael Scally, which Cousin mentions above, and gather the collective knowledge of thousands of steroid users.

You want to rely on your single few weeks experience instead of years of knowledge? Its your body, your life, you can do whatever you want, I just fail to understand why are you are your trying to argue with us?!? What are you trying to achieve??

What bloodwork are you talking about? You just posted a few values, thats what you mean? Thats very incomplete, and even ignorant to even be mentioning it lol.

100% True. Prior to taking me on as a patient, my Endo never had a patient under 50 years old. She was terrified at the beginning to do anything with me because she had zero experience with young males and constantly had to refer to her peers or dig for information. She has less than a handful of TRT patients - 99% are diabetic, menopausal, or suffer from a disease/illness.

[kelkel]

This is my first post in YEARS but couldn't resist. I actually am a doctor and the arrogance and hubris you display are not productive for you or anyone here. Please go show off elsewhere. No one here is impressed. We'll get back to our "bro science".

Member since 04! WTF. Where have you been?

[cousinmuscles]

This is my first post in YEARS but couldn't resist. I actually am a doctor and the arrogance and hubris you display are not productive for you or anyone here. Please go show off elsewhere. No one here is impressed. We'll get back to our "bro science".

Excellent comeback post