What can I expect as a super-Ecto?

[TheGypsyKing]

So I am as ecto as can be, 6'0, 155, 165 if I've been lifting really really hard and eating like a madman, but even then 3-4 lbs of that will be fat. In other words, I simply don't put on muscle. I get ripped, like linford christie type lean (ok, not THAT lean) and get very strong, but I basically don't add muscle at all.

I'm wondering if there's anyone else on the forum like that, and what results they got. I assume my dht receptors are very insensitive, as my test levels are completely normal. So does this mean that a cycle would do much less for me, just as lifting and eating loads do much less for me than it does other men?

I'm not full in on cycling yet, I'm just thinking of it, because I'm really sick and tired of being a stick figure. Probably the same way some girls feel about having no boobs. Just is what it is.

[ksingh93]

what do you eat and how do you train ? please elaborate

[Ernst]

I was there once. Honestly you need to evaluate diet and workout first. I am a lot shorter, but I started at ~110 and can hold 170-175 natty without too much trouble.

My first whole year of working out I only gained 13lbs because I didn't really know what I was doing and wasn't getting great advice.

Force-feeding nutrition and low-volume workouts worked for me. I eat all the time-- more out of habit than hunger.

[Windex]

If you can't gain weight naturally, no steroid is going to help you, they don't magically replace food. If you were to cycle today you would put on bloat and water weight. A week or two after you stop it will all dissapear, basically a yo-yo effect.


I gaurentee your nutrition has room for improvement. If you post it up we can help evaluate and improve



What is your TDEE?

[TheGypsyKing]

what do you eat and how do you train ? please elaborate

I eat oats and fruit in the a.m. with milk/soymilk. I workout before lunch, have 3 bananas, berries, 25g protein powder, soymilk smoothie. Will usually have a tuna sandwich for lunch. Dinner is usually pasta and meat sauce or fish and rice. Usually a snack of some clif bar type things and rice chips. I promise you I out-eat almost everyone I know, big and small alike. I was actually a legend growing up for my eating. I ordered things at restaurants as a kid where the waiters would say "I think this is not a good choice, very few adults can finish this," the stubborn ass I was I would say "then bring me two." Like an entire 14" large pizza and an 8" medium. I really just have a preposterous metabolism, I assure you.

[TheGypsyKing]

If you can't gain weight naturally, no steroid is going to help you, they don't magically replace food. If you were to cycle today you would put on bloat and water weight. A week or two after you stop it will all dissapear, basically a yo-yo effect.


I gaurentee your nutrition has room for improvement. If you post it up we can help evaluate and improve



What is your TDEE?

Yes, I could eat even more, stuff myself with another 500 calories a day and gain a pound a week, but the point is that it doesn't translate to muscle for me. I just don't put it on. I out-ate EVERYONE in college, worked out with all of them, was close to as strong as anyone, and never gained an ounce. I could curl 50 lb dumbbells for 10 reps no problem, yet had almost no visible biceps. It's just my genes man

[Ernst]

Nope. It is how you train and eat.

Strength and bodybuilding are not one and the same.

[ksingh93]

I eat oats and fruit in the a.m. with milk/soymilk. I workout before lunch, have 3 bananas, berries, 25g protein powder, soymilk smoothie. Will usually have a tuna sandwich for lunch. Dinner is usually pasta and meat sauce or fish and rice. Usually a snack of some clif bar type things and rice chips. I promise you I out-eat almost everyone I know, big and small alike. I was actually a legend growing up for my eating. I ordered things at restaurants as a kid where the waiters would say "I think this is not a good choice, very few adults can finish this," the stubborn ass I was I would say "then bring me two." Like an entire 14" large pizza and an 8" medium. I really just have a preposterous metabolism, I assure you.

these are the reasons you are not growing .
1 very few lean protein sources
2 very few complex carbs sources
3 very few healthy fats
4 very few calories hence not growing

eat around 5-6 meals a day that include shakes
meal example -1 cup rice, 200 g chciken breast around 20 g healthy fats with each meal e.g peanut butter,almonds,extra virgin Olive oil,avocado.

shake example -1 cup oats, 1 banana or fruit of your choice ,2 tbsp peanut butter 1 scoop protein powder, 1 cup 2%milk (if you are lactose intolerence use almond milk instead)

now lets see how you train ?

[Proximal]

So I am as ecto as can be, 6'0, 155, 165 if I've been lifting really really hard and eating like a madman, but even then 3-4 lbs of that will be fat. In other words, I simply don't put on muscle. I get ripped, like linford christie type lean (ok, not THAT lean) and get very strong, but I basically don't add muscle at all.

I'm wondering if there's anyone else on the forum like that, and what results they got. I assume my dht receptors are very insensitive, as my test levels are completely normal. So does this mean that a cycle would do much less for me, just as lifting and eating loads do much less for me than it does other men?

I'm not full in on cycling yet, I'm just thinking of it, because I'm really sick and tired of being a stick figure. Probably the same way some girls feel about having no boobs. Just is what it is.

Yep, I’m like you.

As a teen I started at 6’2” 155. As a teen and into my early twenties could out-eat just about anyone & not put on a pound.

Unless you are not training regularly & completely eat like total crap, then you are not doing anything fundamentally wrong.

Congratulate yourself on keep grinding it out at the gym, it ain’t easy. I’ve done it for over 40 years.

I’ll be very interested in posting with you.

[TheGypsyKing]

Yep, I’m like you.

As a teen I started at 6’2” 155. As a teen and into my early twenties could out-eat just about anyone & not put on a pound.

Unless you are not training regularly & completely eat like total crap, then you are not doing anything fundamentally wrong.

Congratulate yourself on keep grinding it out at the gym, it ain’t easy. I’ve done it for over 40 years.

I’ll be very interested in posting with you.

I feel like non-ectos truly just don't get it. If I eat another meal, that's just one more time per day that I will poop. I could add 1,000 calories a day, and at the end of 6 months I will have added mayyybe 2 lbs of muscle, and 15 lbs of fat. If me, random normal guy, and kate beckinsale all begin a big time training program, workout and eat together, the same regimen, at the end of it, me and kate beckinsale's gains are almost exactly the same, normal guy's are 10x ours.

Most women have more body hair than I do. It just ain't in my genes to be built like an alpha. I'm just wondering whether AAS would even do anything for me, or whether this body-type I have doesn't respond much to them. Because I have testosterone as high as any other man's, but clearly my receptors are turned wayyy down.

[TestoSuper]

Yes, AAS will certainly do something. But you can not know it until you try.
You'd be one of the first men on earth who does not respond to steroids.
what is the natural situation is never comparable to what you can get with AAS. And it is not predictable before.

I advise you to clearly understand your maintenance TDEE, the right quantities of macros, which type of foods to take, which caloric surplus is necessary for your growth (i.e. 300/400/500 or more kilo calories a day over your maintenance TDEE).
When you know this factors you can start to think to do an AAS cycle.

[SocioMachiavelli]

I feel like non-ectos truly just don't get it. If I eat another meal, that's just one more time per day that I will poop. I could add 1,000 calories a day, and at the end of 6 months I will have added mayyybe 2 lbs of muscle, and 15 lbs of fat. If me, random normal guy, and kate beckinsale all begin a big time training program, workout and eat together, the same regimen, at the end of it, me and kate beckinsale's gains are almost exactly the same, normal guy's are 10x ours.

Most women have more body hair than I do. It just ain't in my genes to be built like an alpha. I'm just wondering whether AAS would even do anything for me, or whether this body-type I have doesn't respond much to them. Because I have testosterone as high as any other man's, but clearly my receptors are turned wayyy down.

Stuffing your face will never equal muscle, it's not as simple as that. Perhaps non-ecto's don't get it, but as people have already said like ernst.... they were in your shoes once and have progressed through proper nutrition and he can hold 175lbs naturally without chemical enhancement.

What non bodybuilders don't get.... is the amount of discipline, correct nutrition and training it takes to develop quality muscle that stays. If your training and nutrition were dialled in... and you couldn't gain muscle... then yeah we could maybe blame genes or something else. But from where we are sitting... it's definitely your nutrition and maybe your training that is the biggest obstacle at the moment. As you pointed out, you have to work harder for your gains... which also means you have to be more disciplined and honestly you're nutrition is a long way off.

So to answer your question.... without proper training and nutrition steroids are not for you and any gains you make will disappear as quickly as you make them.

[Proximal]

I feel like non-ectos truly just don't get it. If I eat another meal, that's just one more time per day that I will poop. I could add 1,000 calories a day, and at the end of 6 months I will have added mayyybe 2 lbs of muscle, and 15 lbs of fat. If me, random normal guy, and kate beckinsale all begin a big time training program, workout and eat together, the same regimen, at the end of it, me and kate beckinsale's gains are almost exactly the same, normal guy's are 10x ours.

Most women have more body hair than I do. It just ain't in my genes to be built like an alpha. I'm just wondering whether AAS would even do anything for me, or whether this body-type I have doesn't respond much to them. Because I have testosterone as high as any other man's, but clearly my receptors are turned wayyy down.

First off, don’t blame yourself, you are NOT doing anything wrong, training or diet wise. Yes of course there are improvements that just about anyone can make in their diet or training, but regrettably in the world of muscle, we are on the outside looking in.

The guys on this forum are amazing & supportive, but from our stand point, will never understand our population & you will here the same things over & over again.

To those above, I want to be clear on that point, everything that you are saying is for TGK’s benefit, it is positive, it works for this population here, BUT, it doesn’t work for everyone. I am NOT trying to be argumentative with you.

You have my admiration for sticking to it, trust me it takes tenacity & dedication to go to the gym year after year & seeing others make gains, while you seem to simply be ramming your head into the wall.

[Proximal]

A couple of questions though.

Your age and how long have you been training? And then honestly speaking, has your training been consistently solid.

F diet for now, my first training partner in college blew up eating crap & I’ve encountered dozens like him through the years, including those I’ve trained myself.

[Proximal]

About 30 years ago, my training partner got some AAS that I don’t recall the name of. We went into it with zero planning or goals, it was for shits and giggles as they used to say. I believe we started with a low dose & the gains were immediate. They actually scared me a bit & I tapered off fast. I have an addictive personality, plus at that time my marriage & professional career were top priority.

When I started TRT 3 years ago, the progress was great (for me), but I have to tell you something, I almost lost it when I saw some other members post their pics about their progress on TRT.

I did a 500 mg. blast for 12 weeks: 2-3 pound of muscle and the rest water & fat. And you better believe me I ate like everyone said I should & I won’t even get into my work effort.

Post up here or PM me, but if you aren’t seriously dedicated with your training, please be honest because nothing will really help unless you are genetically gifted.

Here’s to a great 2019!

[fiddlesticks]

Try some chocolate milk.. More anabolic than any AAS.

Don't make stupid excuses like most skinny guys, if you arent gaining weight eat more... My tdee is at LEAST 5500 a day and I manage to gain weight. Steroids will literally do nothing if nutrient levels aren't where they need to be.

[TheGypsyKing]

A couple of questions though.

Your age and how long have you been training? And then honestly speaking, has your training been consistently solid.

F diet for now, my first training partner in college blew up eating crap & I’ve encountered dozens like him through the years, including those I’ve trained myself.

I have been training on and off for about 20 years. I'm 32. I've had some injuries in past few years that limited my workload, but even still, through my college years I lifted hard as hell. Always last one to leave the gym, always out-ate all the guys, and at 6'0 150 I could bench about 240 lbs at 19. But they got yoked and I didn't.

So I have just gotten back to consistency over the last 8 months, but I'm just interested in using AAS because I am sick and tired of getting strong af, ripped, and still being an absolute pencil. Simply put, being 6'0 160 lbs just sucks, no matter how ripped you get. You look like a scarecrow, wearing a jacket and jeans. I'd love to be 175 lbs and still as lean as I am. Slim is fine, I'm just sick of being skinny, and the most I ever weighed, I was 183, slim, but had no definition at all.

[Arcânn]

I just skimmed most of the comments, but I can tell you I feel your pain, and based on your starting stats, I actually had it a little worse than you. I started at 6'2" and 145 lbs. Actually, by the time I got SERIOUS about it when I was 22-23 years old, I was 150 lbs. So TRUST me when I say I've been there, and even now, what I gain is fragile. If I take a week off from eating like a horse, I'll drop from 210-212 (current weight) to <200. If I take a month off, I'm likely in the 170's.

The truth is, even though you probably ARE out-eating most of your peers, you're not eating enough for YOU. I'm not going to be one of those people that's like "hardgainers are just under eaters"....no. Hardgainers, GENERALLY speaking, eat more than everyone else (maybe not more than most serious bodybuilders though). Your requirements are just greater than most others, and life is unfair like that. I was 150 lbs eating to the point that everyone around me was jealous because I could eat a pizza a day along with whatever else I wanted and still be a toothpick. I've heard all the "I wish I had your problem" and "I'd be 300 lbs if I ate like you". But I was not eating nearly as much as I thought. I wasn't counting calories or anything back then, but knowing what I know now, if I had to guess, I'd say I was eating less than 2500 calories a day. Which doesn't sound like much, but in my experience, most mere mortals out there actually eat less than 2000 a day. Most people that I personally know, taking into account everything I know they eat and what they may or may not eat when I'm not around, probably only eat around 1800 calories a day, and most of them are overweight.

My advice would be to actually keep track of what you eat in a normal day just to see how many calories you're ACTUALLY eating, then raise it by 200, and get your macros straight so that you're actually gaining muscle instead of just fat. Protein and carbs are a must. I had to tinker with my diet and shift my macros to what some would consider unfavorable for bulking, so that I could actually get the calories I needed because not only do I have a fast metabolism, I also have a small stomach compared to all these other bodybuilders out here eating 5k+ calories. It's working great for me right now though. At 3.6k, depending on what I'm eating, I'm so full that if I sneeze, I end up in so much pain that I'm convinced something in my guts ruptured and I'm honestly worried for a few minutes until the pain dies down.

In general, 1g of protein per lb of body weight should suffice. And if you're not someone who's kept track of what you eat, 1g per lb is actually a lot more than what it sounds. When I wasn't keeping track, I just made sure there was some kinda protein in everything I ate and I thought that was enough. In hindsight, I was MAYBE eating 0.7 grams per lb back in the day. I still made gains because I was forcing myself to eat all the time, but I could've done better if I'd known better. Your protein and carb requirements are probably also greater than most. Again, life isn't fair. Ectos are trying to be far above average while working with below average potential usually. Find what works best for you and stick to it. Consistency yields the greatest results.

[Proximal]

I have been training on and off for about 20 years. I'm 32. I've had some injuries in past few years that limited my workload, but even still, through my college years I lifted hard as hell. Always last one to leave the gym, always out-ate all the guys, and at 6'0 150 I could bench about 240 lbs at 19. But they got yoked and I didn't.

So I have just gotten back to consistency over the last 8 months, but I'm just interested in using AAS because I am sick and tired of getting strong af, ripped, and still being an absolute pencil. Simply put, being 6'0 160 lbs just sucks, no matter how ripped you get. You look like a scarecrow, wearing a jacket and jeans. I'd love to be 175 lbs and still as lean as I am. Slim is fine, I'm just sick of being skinny, and the most I ever weighed, I was 183, slim, but had no definition at all.

Well AAS - wise you are in the right place, but as you can see, pretty much every comment above has sounded alike. I’ve been here 3 years now & am used to this rhetoric.

When you think about it, this place is very largely populated by guys who have found success in the weight-room & have accelerated that success with AAS. There is a TRT section, but even there, some of the pictures of far older men that have seen dramatic success will possibly depress you as they have me.

I’ve been told by knowledgeable members that there are likely far more anabolic things I can use, so with that said, I haven’t taken that final step yet (but will be this year as my quality training years are dwindling due to injury). My knowledge of training is vast, knowledge of nutrition, pretty damn good, but about AAS, horrible.

I’m going to send you a PM in a bit.

[fiddlesticks]

Well AAS - wise you are in the right place, but as you can see, pretty much every comment above has sounded alike. I’ve been here 3 years now & am used to this rhetoric.

When you think about it, this place is very largely populated by guys who have found success in the weight-room & have accelerated that success with AAS. There is a TRT section, but even there, some of the pictures of far older men that have seen dramatic success will possibly depress you as they have me.

I’ve been told by knowledgeable members that there are likely far more anabolic things I can use, so with that said, I haven’t taken that final step yet (but will be this year as my quality training years are dwindling due to injury). My knowledge of training is vast, knowledge of nutrition, pretty damn good, but about AAS, horrible.

I’m going to send you a PM in a bit.

"More anabolic things"? Like peanut butter?

[Proximal]

"More anabolic things"? Like peanut butter?

Yeah exactly . . . and chocolate milk.

[Ernst]

It simply does not matter if you eat more or train heavier than some other guy for X results. Worry about you alone.

I can lose weight sitting on the couch eating ice cream. I have to consume enough quality protein and total calories and do properly focused workouts or else my results just disappear.

Start with a look at just my own pure animal protein intake for yesterday-- not counting milk, of which I drink about a half gallon per day, not counting nuts, fruit, killer bread, or anything else I ate. You can start to see that this is a lot different than what you are eating.

12 oz chicken breast ~100 grams protein
6 oz salmon ~ 45 grams protein
1 cup egg whites ~ 26 grams protein
10 oz tuna ~ 70 grams protein
2 beef sticks ~ 18 grams protein

Do not be afraid to put on a little bit of fat. It falls right off of us later, the big benefit of our body type. I say screw shakes and supps at this point. You want a weight gain shake then skip the powders and throw some food in the blender.

My workouts are short and simple. Resist the urge to over-train, low volume, everything is maximum effort.

The thing about AAS that I think many uninitiated people fail to understand is that it is really more like taking supplements that actually do something. It still requires a crap ton of time and effort on your part to see real or lasting results. On top of that, as an ecto you can never stop working to gain and/or maintain that mass or it simply vanishes.

And I totally drink chocolate milk. It is awesome.

[Proximal]

It simply does not matter if you eat more or train heavier than some other guy for X results. Worry about you alone.

And I totally drink chocolate milk. It is awesome.

Great point, but in reality it's tough not judging yourself against others, particularly when you don't see the progress.

Fantastic for recovery.

[fiddlesticks]

I really am shocked people are this confused, simply increase food to gain weight. If not gaining weight, eat more food. There are no ways out if this. Some people may simply have to eat more to gain weight.

[ksingh93]

I really am shocked people are this confused, simply increase food to gain weight. If not gaining weight, eat more food. There are no ways out if this. Some people may simply have to eat more to gain weight.

he said he do put on weight but its usually fat .that means he is eating enough but wrong foods and most probably alot of simple carbs and saturated fats.he just needs to learn how to eat right and train right but poor guy will end up cycling and losing all the water and little muscle he gained due to poor diet .

The story of 95 percent gym goers

[Proximal]

I really am shocked people are this confused, simply increase food to gain weight. If not gaining weight, eat more food. There are no ways out if this. Some people may simply have to eat more to gain weight.

Fundamentally you are correct about weight gain, but this concerns lean muscle gain in particular.

Would you like to have the physique of Phil Heath, Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler?

Why don't you have it? Simply eat more, you see quality calories equals size.

Do you really think they use more AAS or "better" AAS than everyone here?

Do you really think that they have some super-secret training method that no-one else had tried?

It's genetics. Yes, its dedication & hard work. But please, we can't all be LeBron James or That Barkley dude on the NY Giants (did you see his leap over both lines from 3-4 yards out)?

[fiddlesticks]

Genetics part is overblown me thinks, although I have not weighed under 250-230 since i was 11 I sure as hell ate a ton the way there, my genetic line isn't especially large but just from sucking down lots of food i got great results.

All i am saying is to eat more and smarter, stop eating freaking pieces of chicken which have very little calorie content and replace it with some peanut butter. Physically examine 1000 calories of chicken vs peanut butter.. One is easier than the other to eat.

[Family_guy]

I just skimmed most of the comments, but I can tell you I feel your pain, and based on your starting stats, I actually had it a little worse than you. I started at 6'2" and 145 lbs. Actually, by the time I got SERIOUS about it when I was 22-23 years old, I was 150 lbs. So TRUST me when I say I've been there, and even now, what I gain is fragile. If I take a week off from eating like a horse, I'll drop from 210-212 (current weight) to <200. If I take a month off, I'm likely in the 170's.

The truth is, even though you probably ARE out-eating most of your peers, you're not eating enough for YOU. I'm not going to be one of those people that's like "hardgainers are just under eaters"....no. Hardgainers, GENERALLY speaking, eat more than everyone else (maybe not more than most serious bodybuilders though). Your requirements are just greater than most others, and life is unfair like that. I was 150 lbs eating to the point that everyone around me was jealous because I could eat a pizza a day along with whatever else I wanted and still be a toothpick. I've heard all the "I wish I had your problem" and "I'd be 300 lbs if I ate like you". But I was not eating nearly as much as I thought. I wasn't counting calories or anything back then, but knowing what I know now, if I had to guess, I'd say I was eating less than 2500 calories a day. Which doesn't sound like much, but in my experience, most mere mortals out there actually eat less than 2000 a day. Most people that I personally know, taking into account everything I know they eat and what they may or may not eat when I'm not around, probably only eat around 1800 calories a day, and most of them are overweight.

My advice would be to actually keep track of what you eat in a normal day just to see how many calories you're ACTUALLY eating, then raise it by 200, and get your macros straight so that you're actually gaining muscle instead of just fat. Protein and carbs are a must. I had to tinker with my diet and shift my macros to what some would consider unfavorable for bulking, so that I could actually get the calories I needed because not only do I have a fast metabolism, I also have a small stomach compared to all these other bodybuilders out here eating 5k+ calories. It's working great for me right now though. At 3.6k, depending on what I'm eating, I'm so full that if I sneeze, I end up in so much pain that I'm convinced something in my guts ruptured and I'm honestly worried for a few minutes until the pain dies down.

In general, 1g of protein per lb of body weight should suffice. And if you're not someone who's kept track of what you eat, 1g per lb is actually a lot more than what it sounds. When I wasn't keeping track, I just made sure there was some kinda protein in everything I ate and I thought that was enough. In hindsight, I was MAYBE eating 0.7 grams per lb back in the day. I still made gains because I was forcing myself to eat all the time, but I could've done better if I'd known better. Your protein and carb requirements are probably also greater than most. Again, life isn't fair. Ectos are trying to be far above average while working with below average potential usually. Find what works best for you and stick to it. Consistency yields the greatest results.

EXACTLY! You hit the nail on the head. Everyone always says I had a tapeworm cuz I was eating constantly. But I was just eating crap like snacks and junk. Once I actually starting tracking my macros and calculated my TDEE I was shocked. I thought I was eating so much more than I actually was. I’ve always been 5”9 130s until a few months ago when I started training and tracking my calories.

Since I started eating more whole food (chicken, rice, potatoes, etc) I’ve found it hard to actually eat over 3000-3200 calories but now I’m 150lbs! So In 3 months I’ve gained about 12lbs which I thought was impossible considering my whole life “I always ate more than the other guys”.

Point is exactly what these other guys are saying. Calculate TDEE and track your macros then see how your doing by adjusting your calories.

Good luck you can do this! Even us Ectos can put on lbs it’s just more work but it’s so worth it when you see the change in your body.

P.S. get the my fitness pal app!! It makes tracking your macros so easy and give you a goal to shoot for every day!

[AR's King Silabolin]

Its difficult to gain fat from lean proteinsources. I think u eat below 200 grams of protein each day now.
U seems "desperate" and tried everything. So...have u tried the simple advice of eating 350 grams of protein from good food each day for 2 months. Combined with heavy basic exersices. Deads, squats, bench, military press and barbell rows 3 times a week and a gallion of water each day?
Please dont do arms now.

Sent fra min SM-N9005 via Tapatalk

[Narkissos]

I feel like non-ectos truly just don't get it. If I eat another meal, that's just one more time per day that I will poop. I could add 1,000 calories a day, and at the end of 6 months I will have added mayyybe 2 lbs of muscle, and 15 lbs of fat. If me, random normal guy, and kate beckinsale all begin a big time training program, workout and eat together, the same regimen, at the end of it, me and kate beckinsale's gains are almost exactly the same, normal guy's are 10x ours.

Then you're not ecto. What you are, is someone approaching the weigh-gain paradigm wrong.

[SocioMachiavelli]

Not to hijack the thread, but great to see you back C

Then you're not ecto. What you are, is someone approaching the weigh-gain paradigm wrong.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

[Narkissos]

It simply does not matter if you eat more or train heavier than some other guy for X results. Worry about you alone.

Repped.

[Narkissos]

Not to hijack the thread, but great to see you back C

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

Thanks for your kindness.

Had some health issues.

Back for good now.
Bless

[Proximal]

Then you're not ecto. What you are, is someone approaching the weigh-gain paradigm wrong.

Going by my experience, I’d say he’s an ecto.

Can he improve his diet & training (we don’t know what that looks like now, but let’s assume it’s decent), and put on “some” muscle; I’d say yes. I’ve trained side by side with guys for 40 years that eat like shit or train like idiots, never kept them away from muscle.

I have walked in his shoes, I know what I’m doing training wise and though not an expert, know my way around nutrition.

I’ve taken difficult classes in college, worked my ass off and aced them. Others worked their ass off and failed. Are they stupid, did they study “wrong”. In basketball, I dunked by the time I was 18 (not bad for a 6’1’’ white boy in 1976). I worked my ass off. So did a lot of other guys & they couldn’t touch the rim. Hell, we trained side by side, go figure. Not a mystery, their time to peak torque was/is genetically inferior to mine, which is why my first step and hand speed is nasty quick as well.

The OP’s concerns are legit. Your points are equally legit, but imo, overly emphasized in this case and others like it.

My expertise is not AAS, but that’s where he has reached out for help. I’m hoping some of the more knowledgeable guys here can do that for him.

[Arcânn]

Genetics part is overblown me thinks, although I have not weighed under 250-230 since i was 11 I sure as hell ate a ton the way there, my genetic line isn't especially large but just from sucking down lots of food i got great results.

All i am saying is to eat more and smarter, stop eating freaking pieces of chicken which have very little calorie content and replace it with some peanut butter. Physically examine 1000 calories of chicken vs peanut butter.. One is easier than the other to eat.

On the contrary, I think genetics is the single greatest factor, even more-so than AAS. Examples:

I'm sure I've mentioned I'm friends with a guy who weighs 235-240 lbs and he can't stomach more than 2300 calories. Meanwhile I'm eating 3600-3700 and I've capped out around 210 so I'm about to up the calories by another 200. I'm also far leaner than he is and I've never once intentionally cut before. Starting this month or next month will be my very first time doing that. He, on the other hand, has never once tried to bulk and he has more BF%, but also has bigger arms than me, despite never having once worked out for the purpose of gaining muscle by bulking. He has only ever cut and lost weight but has hit a wall with the weight loss.

I have another friend I was deployed with who started working out around the same time I did. He started at a low BF% just like I did, but in a months and a half, he put on 16 pounds, and if anything, appeared to lose fat in the process. No AAS, no supplements, half-ass training, and horrible diet. Most of his diet was hot dogs, cheese burgers, hashbrown patties, and apple sauce. And he gained muscle faster than most people on their first AAS cycle on a good diet. Granted, his gains slowed to a crawl after that because he didn't change anything he was doing, didn't increase calories or anything.

I have another friend I was also deployed with who worked out with me and he was maybe 90% as serious as I was. We were a similar size by the time we came home, but he started bigger than I was anyway. He completely stopped working out, completely stopped eating right, became a tranny a few years later and is taking estrogen...he STILL hasn't lost ANY of his gains from that deployment nearly 6 years ago. He's one of the most beastly things I've seen in a skirt. Meanwhile, if I take a week or two off, especially from the diet, I'll lose over 10 pounds by accident.

If genetics were a non-factor, we'd all look like Jay Cutler and Ronnie Coleman after a few cycles, but those guys were bigger before AAS than most people get after decades of AAS. There are plenty of people who look they are doo at least mild cycles and have perfect diets and what no, but all they do is go to the gym and eat whatever they want and they look fantastic. Most mere mortals can't get away with that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people should use genetics as an excuse to not put in the effort. When it comes to effort, in my opinion, there are no excuses for not putting in the work. But at the end of the day, some people are more genetically gifted than others. Some people can do 50% and get better results than others who put in 110%. That's just life.

If you still think there's no genetic difference, next time you're in the gym, pay attention to something. Look at all the black guys, and look at all the white guys, and you;ll notice a couple differences. GENERALLY speaking, black guys have better looking upper bodies and are GENERALLY leaner than white guys. But then look at their legs. White guys almost always have bigger calves than black guys. About 90% of the time, I notice this tp be true when I pay attention in the gym.

Rant over.

[Narkissos]

Going by my experience, I’d say he’s an ecto.

Can he improve his diet & training (we don’t know what that looks like now, but let’s assume it’s decent), and put on “some” muscle; I’d say yes. I’ve trained side by side with guys for 40 years that eat like shit or train like idiots, never kept them away from muscle.

I have walked in his shoes, I know what I’m doing training wise and though not an expert, know my way around nutrition.

I’ve taken difficult classes in college, worked my ass off and aced them. Others worked their ass off and failed. Are they stupid, did they study “wrong”. In basketball, I dunked by the time I was 18 (not bad for a 6’1’’ white boy in 1976). I worked my ass off. So did a lot of other guys & they couldn’t touch the rim. Hell, we trained side by side, go figure. Not a mystery, their time to peak torque was/is genetically inferior to mine, which is why my first step and hand speed is nasty quick as well.

The OP’s concerns are legit. Your points are equally legit, but imo, overly emphasized in this case and others like it.

My expertise is not AAS, but that’s where he has reached out for help. I’m hoping some of the more knowledgeable guys here can do that for him.

I'm definitely not downplaying the OP's points.
And, I do agree that he needs help.

However, I think that help requires a holistic review of everything he's presently not nailing... with AAS being secondary.

Sure, we can say 'hey... shoot some tren and eat big'. But if he hasn't figured out the other stuff, when the cycle is done... he'll be back to square one.

That's all I'm saying.

Respect.

[Narkissos]

On the contrary, I think genetics is the single greatest factor, even more-so than AAS. Examples:

I'm sure I've mentioned I'm friends with a guy who weighs 235-240 lbs and he can't stomach more than 2300 calories. Meanwhile I'm eating 3600-3700 and I've capped out around 210 so I'm about to up the calories by another 200. I'm also far leaner than he is and I've never once intentionally cut before. Starting this month or next month will be my very first time doing that. He, on the other hand, has never once tried to bulk and he has more BF%, but also has bigger arms than me, despite never having once worked out for the purpose of gaining muscle by bulking. He has only ever cut and lost weight but has hit a wall with the weight loss.

I have another friend I was deployed with who started working out around the same time I did. He started at a low BF% just like I did, but in a months and a half, he put on 16 pounds, and if anything, appeared to lose fat in the process. No AAS, no supplements, half-ass training, and horrible diet. Most of his diet was hot dogs, cheese burgers, hashbrown patties, and apple sauce. And he gained muscle faster than most people on their first AAS cycle on a good diet. Granted, his gains slowed to a crawl after that because he didn't change anything he was doing, didn't increase calories or anything.

I have another friend I was also deployed with who worked out with me and he was maybe 90% as serious as I was. We were a similar size by the time we came home, but he started bigger than I was anyway. He completely stopped working out, completely stopped eating right, became a tranny a few years later and is taking estrogen...he STILL hasn't lost ANY of his gains from that deployment nearly 6 years ago. He's one of the most beastly things I've seen in a skirt. Meanwhile, if I take a week or two off, especially from the diet, I'll lose over 10 pounds by accident.

If genetics were a non-factor, we'd all look like Jay Cutler and Ronnie Coleman after a few cycles, but those guys were bigger before AAS than most people get after decades of AAS. There are plenty of people who look they are doo at least mild cycles and have perfect diets and what no, but all they do is go to the gym and eat whatever they want and they look fantastic. Most mere mortals can't get away with that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people should use genetics as an excuse to not put in the effort. When it comes to effort, in my opinion, there are no excuses for not putting in the work. But at the end of the day, some people are more genetically gifted than others. Some people can do 50% and get better results than others who put in 110%. That's just life.

If you still think there's no genetic difference, next time you're in the gym, pay attention to something. Look at all the black guys, and look at all the white guys, and you;ll notice a couple differences. GENERALLY speaking, black guys have better looking upper bodies and are GENERALLY leaner than white guys. But then look at their legs. White guys almost always have bigger calves than black guys. About 90% of the time, I notice this tp be true when I pay attention in the gym.

Rant over.

Yes... genetics are a big factor.
Which is why we're arguing that he needs a full review.
Because, genetics influence how everything works... including response to anabolics.

He needs to get all his ducks in a row.
Designing the cycle is the easiest part.

So to the OP: Again... I'm not attempting to trivialise your position.

Apologies if that was the interpretation of the delivery.
Bless.

[Proximal]

I'm definitely not downplaying the OP's points.
And, I do agree that he needs help.

However, I think that help requires a holistic review of everything he's presently not nailing... with AAS being secondary.

Sure, we can say 'hey... shoot some tren and eat big'. But if he hasn't figured out the other stuff, when the cycle is done... he'll be back to square one.

That's all I'm saying.

Respect.

Much respect back at you & agree with your statement 100%.

Have you dealt with poor responders in your history of training clients (I’m very similar to th OP)?

[Narkissos]

Much respect back at you & agree with your statement 100%.

Have you dealt with poor responders in your history of training clients (I’m very similar to th OP)?

Yea. Lots of them.
We spend the year working together at minimum.
Training and diet Micro cycles. Meso cycles.
Gear optional.

Once the plan for the whole year is set, it's tweaked according to responses.

Everything is cycled. Sometimes we overfeed. Sometimes we underfeed (for specific adaptive responses). Sometimes liquid calorie floods all day.

[Narkissos]

p.s. Insulin is an Ecto's friend.

However, it's not a compound we casually suggest to anyone. Period.

But, yea... coupled with a great anabolic stack, appropriate training and properly structured force-feeding, the sky is the limit.