For starters....

[kid tastic1]

I have been doing a lot of reading about all the different kinds of steroids and such. I am not planning on jumping to conclusions without doing my homework like i have read throughout various posts. I am 24 and 5'11. I was just curious to what most people would say a good first cycle would be. I have read many people using d-bol and tren in their first cycle and have read that they are not suppose to. I don't want to look like a dumbass or rush into something i would know nothing about. So the main questions is what would be the best cycle for a first time beginner and so on. Thanks for the help guys.

[Sfla80]

I'm sure vets will chime in, but first please don't use tren as a first cycle. There are threads at the top of this page. Find "beginners cycle" read up on that.

Lot more research to do. A lot of knowledgeable people to help to, if u put in the research yourself.

[boxa06]

..... and of course Mickey beat my by .0003636 of a second LOL

[MickeyKnox]

Test only for a beginners cycle, to determine the effects on your system. You don't want to complicate the cycle in case you have an adverse side effect or reaction. You can add an oral on the next one.

This is a typical beginners cycle including PCT.

wk 1-12 500mg test e 2/wk @ 250mg every 3.5 days
wk 1-12 aromisin 12.5mg eod and monitor sides
wk 3-14.5 hCG 250iu 2/wk day before test injections

wk 15-19 pct
clomid 75/50/50/50
nolva 40/40/20/20

Whats your diet look like? BF%?

[boxa06]

I have been doing a lot of reading about all the different kinds of steroids and such. I am not planning on jumping to conclusions without doing my homework like i have read throughout various posts. I am 24 and 5'11. I was just curious to what most people would say a good first cycle would be. I have read many people using d-bol and tren in their first cycle and have read that they are not suppose to. I don't want to look like a dumbass or rush into something i would know nothing about. So the main questions is what would be the best cycle for a first time beginner and so on. Thanks for the help guys.

Welcome

You sound sensible which is good. The recommended cycle for a beginner is a Test only cycle preferably a long ester like Test E, Test C or Sust so the beginner can become familiar with injecting. Furthermore the beginner will understand how Test effects them as it is the base of all cycles. The recommended dose is usually 400-500mgs per week split into 2 injections per week (200-250mgs per shot). Beginners should have an AI on hand in case they run into sides and a solid PCT planned usually Tamox and Clomid. HCG on cycle is also highly recommended.

All this is well and good but we also recommend a solid base of training and nutrition before use of AAS.

Wow I sound smart

[Lunk1]

Welcome

You sound sensible which is good. The recommended cycle for a beginner is a Test only cycle preferably a long ester like Test E, Test C or Sust so the beginner can become familiar with injecting. Furthermore the beginner will understand how Test effects them as it is the base of all cycles. The recommended dose is usually 400-500mgs per week split into 2 injections per week (200-250mgs per shot). EVERYONE should USE an AI and a solid PCT planned usually Tamox and Clomid. HCG on cycle is also highly recommended.

All this is well and good but we also recommend a solid base of training and nutrition before use of AAS.

Wow I sound smart

Boxa..now you sound even smarter lol

[boxa06]

Boxa..now you sound even smarter lol

Ok bro you go me LOL I stand corrected.. EVERYONE should have an AI on hand!

[Lunk1]

Ok bro you go me LOL I stand corrected.. EVERYONE should have an AI on hand!

ARggggggg

[Sworder]

Everybody should be a VET in the gym before becoming a BEGINNER in the steroid world.

Post your stats brother! What is your diet like?

[MickeyKnox]

..... and of course Mickey beat my by .0003636 of a second LOL

Im Clint Eastwood with the keyboard. lol

Everybody should be a VET in the gym and the kitchen before becoming a BEGINNER in the steroid world.

Post your stats brother! What is your diet like?

Fantastic! I like that quote. But I fixed it for ya

[boxa06]

Im Clint Eastwood with the keyboard. lol

Maybe your net is faster :P

That is a pretty good quote.. Even better with the kitchen part lol

[t-dogg]

Test only for a beginners cycle, to determine the effects on your system. You don't want to complicate the cycle in case you have an adverse side effect or reaction. You can add an oral on the next one.

This is a typical beginners cycle including PCT.

wk 1-12 500mg test e 2/wk @ 250mg every 3.5 days
wk 1-12 aromisin 12.5mg eod and monitor sides
wk 3-14.5 hCG 250iu 2/wk day before test injections

wk 15-19 pct
clomid 75/50/50/50
nolva 40/40/20/20

Whats your diet look like? BF%?

Pretty much this.

[Metalject]

A test only cycle is always a good bet for a first cycle. A lot of people say it's a good call because it let's you gauge a response but nearly any adult male on earth will have a good response...it's just testosterone, it's not a hormone you're body is unfamiliar with in any way. Bumping your testosterone levels up should give most anyone good results.

Now some will disagree with this and that's fine, but I see no problem in adding an oral like Dianabol or Anavar to a first cycle along with testosterone. A healthy adult should be able to gauge and control a stack like this very easily, however, adding one of those orals is by no means a necessity.

[boxa06]

A test only cycle is always a good bet for a first cycle. A lot of people say it's a good call because it let's you gauge a response but nearly any adult male on earth will have a good response...it's just testosterone, it's not a hormone you're body is unfamiliar with in any way. Bumping your testosterone levels up should give most anyone good results.

Now some will disagree with this and that's fine, but I see no problem in adding an oral like Dianabol or Anavar to a first cycle along with testosterone. A healthy adult should be able to gauge and control a stack like this very easily, however, adding one of those orals is by no means a necessity.

I only disagree because.. Say it's week 3 and you break out in acne, which compound is doing it?

Don't mean to offend, just putting a view across

[Sworder]

I only disagree because.. Say it's week 3 and you break out in acne, which compound is doing it?

Don't mean to offend, just putting a view across

The androgen is Dianabol/testosterone act in the same way, androgens that aromatase. We are here everyday to help him if there was any problems either way. But I share Metalject's view that I don't see a problem with it. Dianabol has a halflife of 4 hours. You can quickly drop it. The Testosterone takes a while to clear, I would be more worried to stick a 5hl ester in my body than something that has a 4hour half-life.

I personally prefer a kick start as well, actually a frontload. Never been a fan of waiting.


EDIT: This is probably getting confusing to OP by this point, too many opinions. I am out.

[Lunk1]

The androgen is Dianabol/testosterone act in the same way, androgens that aromatase. We are here everyday to help him if there was any problems either way. But I share Metalject's view that I don't see a problem with it. Dianabol has a halflife of 4 hours. You can quickly drop it. The Testosterone takes a while to clear, I would be more worried to stick a 5hl ester in my body than something that has a 4hour half-life.

I personally prefer a kick start as well, actually a frontload. Never been a fan of waiting.




EDIT: This is probably getting confusing to OP by this point, too many opinions. I am out.

And..if he uses and AI ON cycle then he lowers his chances of acne due to hormone fluctuation

[boxa06]

The androgen is Dianabol/testosterone act in the same way, androgens that aromatase. We are here everyday to help him if there was any problems either way. But I share Metalject's view that I don't see a problem with it. Dianabol has a halflife of 4 hours. You can quickly drop it. The Testosterone takes a while to clear, I would be more worried to stick a 5hl ester in my body than something that has a 4hour half-life.

I personally prefer a kick start as well, actually a frontload. Never been a fan of waiting.


EDIT: This is probably getting confusing to OP by this point, too many opinions. I am out.

I know people who are fine with test but get acne from Dbol.. That's why I disagree. Dbol and Test are different compounds and he also mentioned to perhaps include anavar into it as a beginner cycle which is even more so different than Dbol.

[Metalject]

I know people who are fine with test but get acne from Dbol.. That's why I disagree. Dbol and Test are different compounds and he also mentioned to perhaps include anavar into it as a beginner cycle which is even more so different than Dbol.

They're really not all that different. Dbol is simply testosterone with an added double bond at carbon 1 and 2...this is what reduces the testosterone hormone's androgenic nature. Well, that and it has an added methyl group, but this simply protects oral administration.

[Metalject]

I only disagree because.. Say it's week 3 and you break out in acne, which compound is doing it?

Don't mean to offend, just putting a view across

No offense taking. This is the point of a message board. If everyone sat around agreeing with what everyone said it would make a message board pretty pointless and awfully damn boring.

Odds are strong it would be the testosterone. The relative androgenicity of Dbol is very low. There are only trace metabolites produced by the 5AR when it comes to Dbol.

[warmouth]

Welcome to the forum! You got some great advice and now youve got to research as much as you can, then propose a cycle for us to critique, adjust, and tweak.

[boxa06]

I know what you guys are saying and what about the fact that the half life is much shorter causing much more unstable blood levels than for eg test e. This is what may cause acne and other sides. As a beginner he would not know if it is that or the test itself.

[Lunk1]

I know this is getting the OP confused as hell!

Biggest reason for me to suggest Test only for first cycle is simply the typical level of understanding for most first time steroid users. What I mean is..take Dbol fo example: If the first time user has very limited knowledge and experience with AAS then they often time aslo have un-realistic expectations and limited understanding of the effects and results of each compound. With Dbol for example a new user might expect that the gains achieve from Dbol in 3 or 4 weeks are there to stay and then dissapointed when we ALL know whats going to happen!

Now if a person has experience and understanding then multi stacks or more advanced compounds may be considered. Call it an AAS maturity level!

[s.e.bowen]

No offense taking. This is the point of a message board. If everyone sat around agreeing with what everyone said it would make a message board pretty pointless and awfully damn boring.

Odds are strong it would be the testosterone. The relative androgenicity of Dbol is very low. There are only trace metabolites produced by the 5AR when it comes to Dbol.

If the androgenicity of Dbol is very low then what makes it good to "kick start" a cycle with a long ester?

[Metalject]

If the androgenicity of Dbol is very low then what makes it good to "kick start" a cycle with a long ester?

The fast acting anabolic punch. You get a high level of fast acting anabolic activity while the slower steroids are building in your system.

[boxa06]

From my personal experience, I can say unstable levels of test cause acne. I won't make that mistake again!

[Lunk1]

From my personal experience, I can say unstable levels of test cause acne. I won't make that mistake again!

I agree that unstable levels are most likely responsible for acne but it's not just unstable TEST levels..it's unstable hormone levels!

[Lunk1]

I understand it being more of a predispotioned response just like MPB but your post I highlited said "most likey high levels of testosterone". This would imply that the acne was caused by high test levels yes?????

[Metalject]

I understand it being more of a predispotioned response just like MPB but your post I highlited said "most likey high levels of testosterone". This would imply that the acne was caused by high test levels yes?????

Yes. Any time you're using testosterone outside of TRT guidelines you're introducing high levels of testosterone, more of an androgenic hormone, more of a hormone to interact with the 5AR.

[boxa06]

Yes. Any time you're using testosterone outside of TRT guidelines you're introducing high levels of testosterone, more of an androgenic hormone, more of a hormone to interact with the 5AR.

Activity from 5-alpha is the conversion from Test into DHT. So by taking anavar which is a DHT derived AAS would cause acne if you are prone DHT derived acne. Back to my original debate of why one should take only one substance at a time is valid for this reason also.

[Metalject]

Activity from 5-alpha is the conversion from Test into DHT. So by taking anavar which is a DHT derived AAS would cause acne if you are prone DHT derived acne. Back to my original debate of why one should take only one substance at a time is valid for this reason also.

You're right, it is a DHT derivative, but it lacks the interaction with the 5AR, which is necessary to enhance the androgenic action in the target tissue of the skin, scalp, prostate, etc. Again, I'm not saying acne is impossible with Anavar, just that high testosterone doses would be more apt to produce it in a predisposed individual than Anavar.

[Lunk1]

So...again is it high test or unstable HORMONES????

[kid tastic1]

Thanks guys haha was getting a bit confused. I will be reviewing everyone's comments as well as adding my stats and doing more research. I Am not going to jump ahead until i know 100% what i am taking/ doing thanks again guys.

[Sworder]

Thanks guys haha was getting a bit confused. I will be reviewing everyone's comments as well as adding my stats and doing more research. I Am not going to jump ahead until i know 100% what i am taking/ doing thanks again guys.

Sorry that we clusterf*cked this for you. Lets start fresh by providing your stats, experience, diet and pretty much everything that may be relevant so we can tailor a program for you!!

[Metalject]

Maybe I'm retarded...it happens sometimes, lol! I'm not sure I'm following your question.

[boxa06]

Ok I've done a crap load of reading and have come to the conclusion that unstable hormone levels and high hormone levels may cause acne in individuals. Everyone is different so there is no predicting who will get it or who won't. I still think the OP should take only 1 substance for his first cycle and if you don't agree I am done debating LOL everyone will have there own opinion and there are no rights or wrongs. I have learnt a fair bit from this debate

[Sworder]

Here is some information on acne. How it applies to AAS use et cetera


Localization of sex steroid receptors in human skin
http://digitum.um.es/jspui/bitstream...20skin.pdf.txt

We have recently
observed that 20?-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase the
enzyme which catalyzes the conversion of progesterone
into its inactive form 20?-hydroxyprogestgerone was
highly expressed in sebaceous glands in the mouse skin
(Pelletier et al., unpublished data). The enzyme could
regulate the availability of circulating progesterone for
PR and thus control the influence of progesterone on
sebaceous gland cell activity.
Concluding remarks

An update on the role of the sebaceous gland in the pathogenesis of acne
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3051853/
Enhanced sebaceous gland activity is attributed to the potent androgen 5α-DHT5 as sebaceous gland cells possess all necessary enzymes for conversion of testosterone to 5α-DHT.33 The isozyme 5α-reductase type I, which catalyses the conversion from testosterone to 5α-DHT in peripheral tissues by a NADPH-dependent reaction is expressed predominantly in skin.
Human SZ95 sebocytes treated with hormone levels that can be found in 60 year-old women produce less lipids than sebocytes treated with a hormone mixture representing that found in serum of 20 year-old women

Acne and sebaceous gland function.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15556719/
The sebaceous gland is an important formation site of active androgens. Androgens are well known for their effects on sebum excretion, whereas terminal sebocyte differentiation is assisted by peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor ligands. Estrogens, glucocorticoids, and prolactin also influence sebaceous gland function.
Current data indicate that acne vulgaris may be a primary inflammatory disease. Future drugs developed to treat acne not only should reduce sebum production and Propionibacterium acnes populations, but also should be targeted to reduce proinflammatory lipids in sebum, down-regulate proinflammatory signals in the pilosebaceous unit, and inhibit leukotriene B(4)-induced accumulation of inflammatory cells. They should also influence peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor regulation. Isotretinoin is still the most active available drug for the treatment of severe acne.


Skin Lipids. Sebaceous gland lipids: friend or foe?
http://www.jlr.org/content/49/2/271.full
Clinical and experimental evidence indicates that androgens affect sebaceous gland function. The majority of circulating androgens are produced by the gonads and the adrenal gland, but they can also be produced locally within the sebaceous gland from dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, an adrenal precursor hormone. Androgen receptors are expressed in the basal layer of the sebaceous gland and in the outer root sheath keratinocytes of the hair follicle (35, 36). When free testosterone enters the cell, it is quickly reduced to 5α-dihydrosterone (DHT) by the 5α-reductase enzyme. The activity of 5α-reductase is increased in the sebaceous gland in proportion to the size of the gland (37). DHT is ∼5–10 times more potent than testosterone in its interaction with the androgen receptor. Upon binding to its receptor protein, DHT is translocated to the nucleus and initiates the transcription of androgen-responsive genes. It has been shown in a hamster ear model that DHT increases sebaceous gland size by increasing sebocyte proliferation and the rate of total lipid synthesis. DHT increases the mRNA of proteins involved in fatty acid, triglyceride, squalene, and cholesterol synthesis. This effect is mediated by the SREBPs. By inhibiting SREBP's effect with 25-hydroxycholesterol, there was a 50% decrease in the lipid synthesis increase by DHT alone (38). Androgens exert their effect on sebaceous glands by increasing the proliferation of sebocytes and increasing lipid production through SREBPs.
An increase was found in the activity of the androgen-metabolizing enzymes found on the face, chest, and back compared with the sebaceous glands in non-acne-prone areas when normalized for gland size (43). Determining what causes this increase in androgens that increases sebum production is important to understanding sebaceous gland pathophysiology.
There are currently several hypotheses that suggest a mechanism for the suppression of sebum production by estrogens. These include the notions that estrogens directly antagonize androgen activity, estrogens inhibit the production of androgens by gonandal tissue through a negative feedback loop, and estrogens regulate genes involved in lipid production. Rats given testosterone and estrogen simultaneously have a high rate of mitosis but a reduction in gland size and sebum secretion (48, 49). Based on these results, it is thought that estrogens work principally to decrease intracellular lipid production.
These include the notions that estrogens directly antagonize androgen activity, estrogens inhibit the production of androgens by gonandal tissue through a negative feedback loop, and estrogens regulate genes involved in lipid production. Rats given testosterone and estrogen simultaneously have a high rate of mitosis but a reduction in gland size and sebum secretion


Role of FGFR2-signaling in the pathogenesis of acne
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2835907/
Exogeneous androgen excess or hyperandrogenism are associated with increased sebum production and severe acne.
Acne-prone skin exhibits a higher androgen receptor (AR) density and higher 5α-reductase type-I activity than uninvolved skin.
Androgen-mediated upregulation of FGFR2b-signaling in acne-prone skin appears to be involved in the pathogenesis of acne vulgaris.
Insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1), the mediator of growth hormone during puberty, intracts with androgen-dependent FGFR2b-signaling and links androgen- and FGF-mediated signal transduction important in sebaceous gland homeostasis.

[Synergy1]

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