Bush: Inaction on FISA endangers US

[Logan13]

So you would not mind them watchin you right? Posting on a steroid board would probably be suscpisious enough for most people.

Should I be watched because I discuss nuclear technology on science boards and on bloggs and, that could aferall be considered "sensitive".

Who decideds what is reason enough?

I am not breaking the law by posting here. It does not interfere with my daily life. If you have something to hide, you thoughts on it may differ from mine.........
I'm still waiting for a personal example of how someone's rights have been infringed by FISA or the Patriot Act. With all of the rhetoric in here, you would think that someone would have an example. The fact that you are all bitching about something which has obviously not had an impact on your daily lives is just silly. Get on with living your life.

[Kärnfysikern]

I am not breaking the law by posting here. It does not interfere with my daily life. If you have something to hide, you thoughts on it may differ from mine.........
I'm still waiting for a personal example of how someone's rights have been infringed by FISA or the Patriot Act. With all of the rhetoric in here, you would think that someone would have an example. The fact that you are all bitching about something which has obviously not had an impact on your daily lives is just silly. Get on with living your life.

Obviously isnt hasnt effected my life since I am not american. But in sweden recently a law passed that allows the defense department to monitor all internet traffic going in and out of sweden. Since a big chunk of almost all traffic is routed in one way or another through other countries it means just about anything is open to them. Its pure bullshit imo.

There is another law that mandate phone companies to save and store all mobile text messages for 3 years, another piece of shit law that is a infringment upon my rights.

[Logan13]

Obviously isnt hasnt effected my life since I am not american. But in sweden recently a law passed that allows the defense department to monitor all internet traffic going in and out of sweden. Since a big chunk of almost all traffic is routed in one way or another through other countries it means just about anything is open to them. Its pure bullshit imo.

There is another law that mandate phone companies to save and store all mobile text messages for 3 years, another piece of shit law that is a infringment upon my rights.

But honestly, unless you are breaking the law, they are not going to waste their time listening to you tell your girl how much you love her........
Both of these systems rely on key-word association. So if you are in general conversation, they are not actually listening to you. If you say something like "blow up the nuke plant", the system will start to record and will be submitted for review.

[thegodfather]

But honestly, unless you are breaking the law, they are not going to waste their time listening to you tell your girl how much you love her........
Both of these systems rely on key-word association. So if you are in general conversation, they are not actually listening to you. If you say something like "blow up the nuke plant", the system will start to record and will be submitted for review.

Well we have no way of knowing in say this hypothetical situation...

Where two people are discussing a substance/drug that is illegal in the United States, and it has absolutely nothing to do what so ever with "terrorism/threats to the Homeland." And someone in the NSA or DHS, drops a phone call to the DEA and says "hey, check out these 2 guys." I have a SERIOUS problem with that, because that information was obtained in violation of both citizens inalienable rights, and it was obtained WITHOUT a warrant and under the GUISE of looking for terrorists.


I can easily see the system of warrantless wiretapping being abused in this way. And, we would have absolutely NO DOCUMENTED WAY to verify if such action had occured. It also brings such a huge temptation to agencies like the DEA, FBI, and ATF who need big busts to justify their big budgets, to call down to NSA & DHS and say "hey, look for these key words, thanks!"


You can attack my argument as purely hypothetical rhetoric, however you cant really deny that it is very possible and I would argue LIKELY, that the system would be abused in such a manner.

[Logan13]

Well we have no way of knowing in say this hypothetical situation...

Where two people are discussing a substance/drug that is illegal in the United States, and it has absolutely nothing to do what so ever with "terrorism/threats to the Homeland." And someone in the NSA or DHS, drops a phone call to the DEA and says "hey, check out these 2 guys." I have a SERIOUS problem with that, because that information was obtained in violation of both citizens inalienable rights, and it was obtained WITHOUT a warrant and under the GUISE of looking for terrorists.


I can easily see the system of warrantless wiretapping being abused in this way. And, we would have absolutely NO DOCUMENTED WAY to verify if such action had occured. It also brings such a huge temptation to agencies like the DEA, FBI, and ATF who need big busts to justify their big budgets, to call down to NSA & DHS and say "hey, look for these key words, thanks!"


You can attack my argument as purely hypothetical rhetoric, however you cant really deny that it is very possible and I would argue LIKELY, that the system would be abused in such a manner.

Your assumption is based the the idea that they have unlimited man-power. Common sense dictates otherwise.

[Kärnfysikern]

But honestly, unless you are breaking the law, they are not going to waste their time listening to you tell your girl how much you love her........
Both of these systems rely on key-word association. So if you are in general conversation, they are not actually listening to you. If you say something like "blow up the nuke plant", the system will start to record and will be submitted for review.

The problem is who decides what words are keywords. Since there is no public insight such a system can easily become corrupted and the privacy of people should not be decided by the whim of security agencies.

Do you really want to trust that no information obtained in such a way wont be used for other purposes than hunting terrorists?

[Logan13]

The problem is who decides what words are keywords. Since there is no public insight such a system can easily become corrupted and the privacy of people should not be decided by the whim of security agencies.

Do you really want to trust that no information obtained in such a way wont be used for other purposes than hunting terrorists?

common sense dictates which words.
I find it sad that you are willing to give Iran the benefit of doubt that since "they have not stated that their nuclear ambitions will be used for anything besides energy, we cannot assume that this is what it will be used for". Yet even though your gov't and the US say that these systems will only be used to target terrorists and such you do not give them any benefit of the doubt. I think that you need to be a little for consistent. What say ye? Can you explain your soft spot for a country who sponsers terrorism over your own country? Maybe you do need to be worried about these surveillance systems........

[Kärnfysikern]

common sense dictates which words.
I find it sad that you are willing to give Iran the benefit of doubt that since "they have not stated that their nuclear ambitions will be used for anything besides energy, we cannot assume that this is what it will be used for". Yet even though your gov't and the US say that these systems will only be used to target terrorists and such you do not give them any benefit of the doubt. I think that you need to be a little for consistent. What say ye? Can you explain your soft spot for a country who sponsers terrorism over your own country? Maybe you do need to be worried about these surveillance systems........

My beef with the Iran deal is that the world isnt consistent, Iran is complying with the NPT, if that isnt good enough we should change the NPT. If we are going to have a working global proliferation prevention the same rules must apply to all countries without exception and regardless of their political relations with the US.

I am all for changing the NPT btw in such a way so that situations like this doesnt happen.

When evidence is presented that shows Iran has a weapons program I will support any messure to prevent them. I am not giving Iran the benefit of a doubt, I belive they are up to something fishy. But my belife is not more important than internationall treaties.

When it comes to the surveillance it comes down to individuals. I do not trust that every individuall working with such a system is honorable, its a impossibility. Power is always abused. There is also the simple thing that anyone up to something bad will probably use encryption rendering the whole system completely and utterly useless in preventing terrorists. So the system is crap and it infringes upon individuals. The mere fact that they can read what I write is a insult towards my privacy. Its no different from opening my mail, would you agree if the post office started to open and read letters to se if anything illegal is written?

[Logan13]

My beef with the Iran deal is that the world isnt consistent, Iran is complying with the NPT, if that isnt good enough we should change the NPT. If we are going to have a working global proliferation prevention the same rules must apply to all countries without exception and regardless of their political relations with the US.

I am all for changing the NPT btw in such a way so that situations like this doesnt happen.

When evidence is presented that shows Iran has a weapons program I will support any messure to prevent them. I am not giving Iran the benefit of a doubt, I belive they are up to something fishy. But my belife is not more important than internationall treaties.

When it comes to the surveillance it comes down to individuals. I do not trust that every individuall working with such a system is honorable, its a impossibility. Power is always abused. There is also the simple thing that anyone up to something bad will probably use encryption rendering the whole system completely and utterly useless in preventing terrorists. So the system is crap and it infringes upon individuals. The mere fact that they can read what I write is a insult towards my privacy. Its no different from opening my mail, would you agree if the post office started to open and read letters to se if anything illegal is written?

all that typing and you still have not answered the question:
"Why do you give Iran more of a benfit of doubt than Sweden or the US?"