"Report: 1 in every 100 Americans behind bars"

[Prada]

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Report...cans_0228.html

Report: 1 in every 100 Americans behind bars Total is far more than any other country in the world

By DAVID CRARY Associated Press

NEW YORK — For the first time in history, more than one in every 100 American adults is in jail or prison, according to a new report tracking the surge in inmate population and urging states to rein in corrections costs with alternative sentencing programs.

The report, released today by the Pew Center on the States, said the 50 states spent more than $49 billion on corrections last year, up from less than $11 billion 20 years earlier. The rate of increase for prison costs was six times greater than for higher education spending, the report said.

Using updated state-by-state data, the report said 2,319,258 adults were held in U.S. prisons or jails at the start of 2008 — one out of every 99.1 adults, and more than any other country in the world.

The steadily growing inmate population "is saddling cash-strapped states with soaring costs they can ill afford and failing to have a clear impact either on recidivism or overall crime," said the report.

Susan Urahn, managing director of the Pew Center on the States, said budget woes are prompting officials in many states to consider new, cost-saving corrections policies that might have been shunned in the recent past for fear of appearing soft on crime.

"We're seeing more and more states being creative because of tight budgets," she said in an interview. "They want to be tough on crime, they want to be a law-and-order state — but they also want to save money, and they want to be effective."

The report cited Kansas and Texas as states which have acted decisively to slow the growth of their inmate population. Their actions include greater use of community supervision for low-risk offenders and employing sanctions other than reimprisonment for ex-offenders who commit technical violations of parole and probation rules.

"The new approach, born of bipartisan leadership, is allowing the two states to ensure they have enough prison beds for violent offenders while helping less dangerous lawbreakers become productive, taxpaying citizens," the report said.

While many state governments have shown bipartisan interest in curbing prison growth, there also are persistent calls to proceed cautiously.

"We need to be smarter," said David Muhlhausen, a criminal justice expert with the conservative Heritage Foundation. "We're not incarcerating all the people who commit serious crimes — but we're also probably incarcerating people who don't need to be."

According to the report, the inmate population increased last year in 36 states and the federal prison system.

The largest percentage increase — 12 percent — was in Kentucky, where Gov. Steve Beshear highlighted the cost of corrections in his budget speech last month. He noted that the state's crime rate had increased only about 3 percent in the past 30 years, while the state's inmate population has increased by 600 percent.

The Pew report was compiled by the Center on the State's Public Safety Performance Project, which is working directly with 13 states on developing programs to divert offenders from prison without jeopardizing public safety.

"For all the money spent on corrections today, there hasn't been a clear and convincing return for public safety," said the project's director, Adam Gelb. "More and more states are beginning to rethink their reliance on prisons for lower-level offenders and finding strategies that are tough on crime without being so tough on taxpayers."

The report said prison growth and higher incarceration rates do not reflect a parallel increase in crime or in the nation's overall population. Instead, it said, more people are behind bars mainly because of tough sentencing measures, such as "three-strikes" laws, that result in longer prison stays.

"For some groups, the incarceration numbers are especially startling," the report said. "While one in 30 men between the ages of 20 and 34 is behind bars, for black males in that age group the figure is one in nine."

The nationwide figures, as of Jan. 1, include 1,596,127 people in state and federal prisons and 723,131 in local jails — a total 2,319,258 out of almost 230 million American adults.

The report said the United States is the world's incarceration leader, far ahead of more populous China with 1.5 million people behind bars. It said the U.S. also is the leader in inmates per capita (750 per 100,000 people), ahead of Russia (628 per 100,000) and other former Soviet bloc nations which make up the rest of the Top 10.

[Act of God]

Land of the (almost) free!

How many of these prisoners are there on bs drug charges?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm
20% tied for 2nd with property crimes

[MuscleScience]

If drug offenders account for 20% of all criminals in jail. That makes 463,851 people in jail for drug related crimes. That is were our problem lies right there.

[Pooks]

If drug offenders account for 20% of all criminals in jail. That makes 463,851 people in jail for drug related crimes. That is were our problem lies right there.

Well, good news on that front..
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=332527

[Act of God]

If drug offenders account for 20% of all criminals in jail. That makes 463,851 people in jail for drug related crimes. That is were our problem lies right there.

problem of people using drugs or problem that we're arresting casual drug users

[MuscleScience]

problem of people using drugs or problem that we're arresting casual drug users

I would say both, but who am I or the government to say what people can knowingly put in their bodies.

[Dangercat00]

The weird thing is that all the things that are illegal in America are also illegal in other developed countries (I know, not Amsterdam), but American people are just so damn arrogant and stupid about drug use.

[thegodfather]

No drug should be criminalized. We need to stop saying "steroids shouldn't be illegal they're not like the "other" rec drugs." That is quite hypocritical to say that YOUR illegal drug should be legal, yet others that people enjoy using should not. The entire idea of a list of substances that people "cant put into their bodies" because it's dangerous for them is ridiculous. ALL OF THE RECREATIONAL DRUGS COMBINED still does not kill as many people as cigarettes do a year, or alcohol. The dangers are overstated with recreational drugs just as it is with steroids.

Then we are sure to hear from someone in this thread that talks about the things that "drugs make people do." Ok, that is such a flawed argument I dont know where to begin. People make the CONCIOUS DECISION to take drugs, and any of their actions resulting from being under the influence, they are still accountable for, and no one and no substance MADE them do anything. As far as comparison of what their influence does, there are probably several rec drugs which have much less of a deleterious influence over their ability to operate a motor vehicle as compared to alcohol.

Lastly, we all know that the crimes arising from the drugs being illegal are more deleterious to society than if the drugs were just legal and readily available. Addiction is a medical problem, there will always be people who are addicted to drugs, and they can seek medical attention for their problem. There will also be people who can use the drugs RECREATIONALLY with no problems impacting their PERSONAL LIVES or their contribution to society by going to work. I really have no problem with a FUNCTIONAL drug addict as long as they are going to work, and abiding by laws by not committing non-violent crimes. Far be it from me to judge someone for a way in which they would like to live their lives. This is no different from our community, we have people who use our substances responsibly, and those on the board who run very irresponsible dosages and put themselves at a very high risk.

We need to STOP elevating ourselves and our community above other drugs like we are on some sort of "moral" high ground. Morals have no place in this argument. We need to START thinking about our countries Constitution and the fact that FREE INDIVIDUALS have the RIGHT to put whatever they want into their bodies. As Amorphic stated earlier, bodily sovereignty.

[Dangercat00]

ALL OF THE RECREATIONAL DRUGS COMBINED still does not kill as many people as cigarettes do a year, or alcohol. The dangers are overstated with recreational drugs just as it is with steroids.

Then we are sure to hear from someone in this thread that talks about the things that "drugs make people do." Ok, that is such a flawed argument I dont know where to begin. People make the CONCIOUS DECISION to take drugs, and any of their actions resulting from being under the influence, they are still accountable for, and no one and no substance MADE them do anything.

Cigarettes aren't one of the primary reasons for the spread of AIDS. Aside from that, if all drugs were declared legal, you better believe the amount of deaths from ODs would overtake the deaths from alcohol or cigarettes within a few years (actually, drug overdoses are already responsible for a higher death rate than alcohol).

Just because people make a conscious decision to take drugs doesn't mean the effects of those drugs has no effect on their judgment. Someone can smoke crack once out of their own own decision and smoke it every day until he dies because his decision is now impaired. There is a reason drugs like Edited. Read the board rules. No rec drug posts. are illegal. And no, the reason isn't because the government is trying to push it's outrageous moral standards on you, its because the use of hard drugs on a large scale would result in a ridiculous amount of death, deformed children, and crime.

[Kärnfysikern]

No drug should be criminalized. We need to stop saying "steroids shouldn't be illegal they're not like the "other" rec drugs." That is quite hypocritical to say that YOUR illegal drug should be legal, yet others that people enjoy using should not. The entire idea of a list of substances that people "cant put into their bodies" because it's dangerous for them is ridiculous. ALL OF THE RECREATIONAL DRUGS COMBINED still does not kill as many people as cigarettes do a year, or alcohol. The dangers are overstated with recreational drugs just as it is with steroids.

Then we are sure to hear from someone in this thread that talks about the things that "drugs make people do." Ok, that is such a flawed argument I dont know where to begin. People make the CONCIOUS DECISION to take drugs, and any of their actions resulting from being under the influence, they are still accountable for, and no one and no substance MADE them do anything. As far as comparison of what their influence does, there are probably several rec drugs which have much less of a deleterious influence over their ability to operate a motor vehicle as compared to alcohol.

Lastly, we all know that the crimes arising from the drugs being illegal are more deleterious to society than if the drugs were just legal and readily available. Addiction is a medical problem, there will always be people who are addicted to drugs, and they can seek medical attention for their problem. There will also be people who can use the drugs RECREATIONALLY with no problems impacting their PERSONAL LIVES or their contribution to society by going to work. I really have no problem with a FUNCTIONAL drug addict as long as they are going to work, and abiding by laws by not committing non-violent crimes. Far be it from me to judge someone for a way in which they would like to live their lives. This is no different from our community, we have people who use our substances responsibly, and those on the board who run very irresponsible dosages and put themselves at a very high risk.

We need to STOP elevating ourselves and our community above other drugs like we are on some sort of "moral" high ground. Morals have no place in this argument. We need to START thinking about our countries Constitution and the fact that FREE INDIVIDUALS have the RIGHT to put whatever they want into their bodies. As Amorphic stated earlier, bodily sovereignty.

Well said

Cigarettes aren't one of the primary reasons for the spread of AIDS. Aside from that, if all drugs were declared legal, you better believe the amount of deaths from ODs would overtake the deaths from alcohol or cigarettes within a few years (actually, drug overdoses are already responsible for a higher death rate than alcohol).

Just because people make a conscious decision to take drugs doesn't mean the effects of those drugs has no effect on their judgment. Someone can smoke crack once out of their own own decision and smoke it every day until he dies because his decision is now impaired. There is a reason drugs like Edited. Read the board rules. No rec drug posts.. And no, the reason isn't because the government is trying to push it's outrageous moral standards on you, its because the use of hard drugs on a large scale would result in a ridiculous amount of death, deformed children, and crime.

If junkies could buy drugs from pharmacies along with needles ect there wouldnt be a spread of aids. The current regulations forces them more or less to needle sharing ect.

Many OD probably is because you never know what quality the shit you buy in the street is and so its impossible to know how much you take.

When it comes to agression from drugs. A overwhelming majority of violent crimes is comited by drunk people(atleast in sweden), ban alcohole? Obviously people cant handle that either and it result in ridicilous ammount of death and crime.

[kfrost06]

If junkies could buy drugs from pharmacies along with needles ect there wouldnt be a spread of aids. The current regulations forces them more or less to needle sharing ect.

Many OD probably is because you never know what quality the shit you buy in the street is and so its impossible to know how much you take.

When it comes to agression from drugs. A overwhelming majority of violent crimes is comited by drunk people(atleast in sweden), ban alcohole? Obviously people cant handle that either and it result in ridicilous ammount of death and crime.

I am not sure about your laws but here in most US states junkies can buy needles from the pharmacies and they also have needle exchange programs and methadone clinincs. Actually the spread of AIDs is not the big concern, it's Hep C.

Most ODs are due to relapses, that is the junkie losses his/her tolerance and when they relapse a very small amount of the drug kills them (As an atheist you can call it Darwinism at work).

Drugs steal peoples morals from them and they commit crimes they would not dream of if clean/sober. Society is far better off w/o illicit drugs.

[Kärnfysikern]

I am not sure about your laws but here in most US states junkies can buy needles from the pharmacies and they also have needle exchange programs and methadone clinincs. Actually the spread of AIDs is not the big concern, it's Hep C.

In sweden there are trial needle exchange programs in a few towns. But other than that you cant get ahold of needels without a prescription.

Most ODs are due to relapses, that is the junkie losses his/her tolerance and when they relapse a very small amount of the drug kills them (As an atheist you can call it Darwinism at work).

Are you sure? Most od's here from what I hear is because junkies happens to get ahold of really pure stuff instead of the usual shit that is cut.

Drugs steal peoples morals from them and they commit crimes they would not dream of if clean/sober. Society is far better off w/o illicit drugs.

Well there are already laws that deal with violent crime ect so I se no reason to try and target "precursoes" to violent crime. Especialy not when it in effect labels all drug users as potential violent criminals. That goes straight against innocent until proven guilty.

But what about all the drugs that cause less agression and violent behavior than alcohol? Its against the rules to discuss specific drugs, but there are plenty of drugs that do not cause agression in any way. Its hypocritical for society to allow one drug that clearly causes agression while outlawing other drugs that do not.

[kfrost06]

In sweden there are trial needle exchange programs in a few towns. But other than that you cant get ahold of needels without a prescription.



Are you sure? Most od's here from what I hear is because junkies happens to get ahold of really pure stuff instead of the usual shit that is cut.



Well there are already laws that deal with violent crime ect so I se no reason to try and target "precursoes" to violent crime. Especialy not when it in effect labels all drug users as potential violent criminals. That goes straight against innocent until proven guilty.

But what about all the drugs that cause less agression and violent behavior than alcohol? Its against the rules to discuss specific drugs, but there are plenty of drugs that do not cause agression in any way. Its hypocritical for society to allow one drug that clearly causes agression while outlawing other drugs that do not.

I agree with that and we are obiviously locking up to many people. I do not have the answer but I certianly think that some "harder" drugs should require stiffer penalties then others. There is one that I think should not be anything more than a fine(at most). As for alcohol, it was banned once and it didn't work. I don't like alcohol but see no reason to punish all society because a few act like idiots and can't handle their booze.

I can't say for certian about the OD thing but I volunteer at a prison and from the stories I hear from IV users is what I stated.

[Act of God]

Are you sure? Most od's here from what I hear is because junkies happens to get ahold of really pure stuff instead of the usual shit that is cut.

I have one friend who died from an OD. He thought he got Edited. Read the board rules. No rec drug posts. instead...snorted it, dunzo.

Again, this wouldn't have happened if people didn't have to buy drugs out of parking lots in plastic bags full of unknown substances.

[Dizz28]

I am not sure about your laws but here in most US states junkies can buy needles from the pharmacies and they also have needle exchange programs and methadone clinincs. Actually the spread of AIDs is not the big concern, it's Hep C.

Most ODs are due to relapses, that is the junkie losses his/her tolerance and when they relapse a very small amount of the drug kills them (As an atheist you can call it Darwinism at work).

Drugs steal peoples morals from them and they commit crimes they would not dream of if clean/sober. Society is far better off w/o illicit drugs.

trade one bad addiction for another, trade one drug dealer for another...

[thegodfather]

Morals are a personal family matter, they are NOT to be legislated under any circumstances. Legislating drugs is very much about a "moral" idea that they are wrong because they make you feel good, or they are used most often by a certain type of "immoral person."

The actions of people caused by the DIRECT influence of drugs is very minimal, as compared to the INDIRECT actions and behavior associated with the sale, purchase, and financing of the drug habit.

The drug related dangers as indicated previously arise from little/no regulation on the product. You guys need to look at analgous situations here in our community.

Argument of Legislators: The steroids people are buying are made in bathtubs, unsterile, unsafe conditions. Sometimes motor oil and other substances put into the bottles.

Argument of Steroid Community: Because the drugs are scheduled and we are forced to go underground, the government CREATES this unsafe condition for us. It would be safer to legalize the drugs for our purposes so we can use them in a safer manner.

It is very naive to assume that this same condition does not exist with other outlawed substances. The government directly creates many of the "conditions and dangers" for which they then later use as justification of outlawing the substance. The substances were never ORIGINALLY outlawed due to danger, if you look back into the 1900s, it was all because the drugs were associated with "rebellious, filthy, immoral" behaviors.

[Kärnfysikern]

The report said the United States is the world's incarceration leader, far ahead of more populous China with 1.5 million people behind bars. It said the U.S. also is the leader in inmates per capita (750 per 100,000 people), ahead of Russia (628 per 100,000) and other former Soviet bloc nations which make up the rest of the Top 10.

Americans, always want to be best Them russians better not think they have thougher criminals than the good old usa.

[Act of God]

Look at all those "free" countries in the top 10

[Prada]

Look at all those "free" countries in the top 10

Thats an interesting graph. Yet I just find it a little hard to compare because laws differ amongst countries. One thing done freely in a country is a felony in another. Then again when I look at certain countries on that chart, as in S. Arabia, Iran, Israel, and so on, I dont exactly have complete faith in their legal system. It is interesting how much of a gap their is amongst USA and in second place Russia. Land of the free or land of outlaws?

[kfrost06]

Thats an interesting graph. Yet I just find it a little hard to compare because laws differ amongst countries. One thing done freely in a country is a felony in another. Then again when I look at certain countries on that chart, as in S. Arabia, Iran, Israel, and so on, I dont exactly have complete faith in their legal system. It is interesting how much of a gap their is amongst USA and in second place Russia. Land of the free or land of outlaws?

I don't think some place like S. Arabia and Iran have many in prison because they execute them. They kill you for being gay in Iran so comparing us to them is not a fair comparison like you said.

[thegodfather]

Also, correct me if I am wrong...But doesn't Vice Speaker Pelosi's husband own a large company contracted by the government for prisoner transport? Seems like a serious unethical conflict of interest for her to be in a position to vote on legislation that could affect the volume of business for her husbands company.

[Red Ketchup]

I can't imagine how much it costs you as a taxpayer to have 1/100'th of your population incarcerated... wow...

Red

[Pooks]

THIS ARTICLE IS PURE SHIT!!!!!!!!

PURE SHIT!!!

SHIT!!!

SHIT!!!
SHIT!!

Did anyone actually read the last paragraph, I did not.. at first.. somehow barely caught it with my eye right now .. but it says..

U.S. inmates per capita (750 per 100,000 people),

so its 7.5 PER 1000 people that are in prison..

not 1 in 100...
THIS ARTICLE IS FULL OF BS.

7.5 in 1000...

that sounds more correct and reasonable..
these community service socialist advocates need to go F themselves...

all community service does, is take someone else's job away..
creates more job losses and unemployment, and than crime..

Find these people real jobs in Private Sectors..

and also learn how to write unbiased reporting..
put the last paragraph, hidden on the bottom.. up on the top..

so everyone knows it is not really 1 in 100...
but 7.5 in 1000...

i still dont know what they count in the 1 in 100..
but I bet its a bunch of bullshit!

[Kärnfysikern]

well its not like the difference betwen 1 in 100 and 7,5 in 1000 is realy very significant. Its still a shitload of people in jail. 0.75% instead of 1%.

[Pooks]

well its not like the difference betwen 1 in 100 and 7,5 in 1000 is realy very significant. Its still a shitload of people in jail. 0.75% instead of 1%.

They are there for a reason..
Its like this article was written by some Mayor of a town, looking for cheap labor to clean up his parks..

so he'd like slaves basically to do it.. using the inmates... instead of hiring out a cleaning crew, that will pay its employees, and keep the economy growing..

this is just a side-effect of BS gov't overspending..
and now they are losing their minds.. and trying to grasp for even more control..

in this case control over the inmate population..
instead of doing the right thing.. and cutting spending and taxes all across the board..

to many BS promises and made, and they can't keep them, and they are afraid they are going to get voted out of office, like they deserve to be, for being stupid and fiscally irresponsible.

[Kärnfysikern]

Wouldnt you say its a bit odd though that the US has alot higher percentage of its population in jail than any other country? The only ones coming close are shit poor and corrupt countries.

It either means your locking people up for stupid reasons(like petty drug crimes) or your a bunch of crazy bastards

[Pooks]

Wouldnt you say its a bit odd though that the US has alot higher percentage of its population in jail than any other country? The only ones coming close are shit poor and corrupt countries.

It either means your locking people up for stupid reasons(like petty drug crimes) or your a bunch of crazy bastards

It probably just means our law enforcement is better organized and has better equipment... would could be expected in a wealthy nation.

but yup there is also a lot of stuff that could land u in prison..
but a lot of people are also repeat offenders.
bottom line is these people are in there for a reason or another.
They did something bad to someone else, like stealing, or murder, or assault.. or got caught with drugs probably on multiple occasions

[thegodfather]

That study is not for the entire US population.... It is for the ADULT population only, meaning only those 18+ years of age. Thats 230,000,000 people...with 2.3million of those incarcerated...

[Pooks]

That study is not for the entire US population.... It is for the ADULT population only, meaning only those 18+ years of age. Thats 230,000,000 people...with 2.3million of those incarcerated...

really ain't that big a surprise that 1 in 100 adults turns to crime, and fails at it.

actually number that turn to crime is probably higher, but get away with it.

[thegodfather]

really ain't that big a surprise that 1 in 100 adults turns to crime, and fails at it.

actually number that turn to crime is probably higher, but get away with it.

Pooks, are you on any mind altering substances right now? I think that you accept just about every policy that the government comes down with as the RIGHT way to do things. 20% of those in prison are there for DRUG related crimes. There is NO CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISION TO LEGISLATE WHAT PEOPLE CHOSE TO PUT INTO THEIR BODIES. I dont give a flying fu*k if they are 12 time repeat offenders for drugs, it should not be a crime.

Think about the thousands of laws on the book, do you know all of them? I bet that half the time you commit crimes and dont even know it because the laws are so numerous and so obscure that just about anyone can convict a crime, and sometimes unintentionally. The media and the government has done a great job of convincing you that if you're in jail then you are an evil person unfit to live amongst the rest of the UN-rebellious(sheep) population. What a crock of shit. You can get 10 years for embezzlement, A NON-VIOLENT CRIME. These are draconian sentences which do not fit the crime at all. We need MASSIVE reforms. I would propose 2 year maximum sentences on ALL non-violent crime. It doesn't make any logical sense to steal years and years of a persons life for committing a non-violent crime, no one has been injured.

It's a proven FACT, that higher sentences do NOTHING to prevent crime rates. An unarguable fact.

I have been looking for a statistic on the number of innocent people projected to be incarcerated right now. Look at www.innocenceproject.com, they are group who have many many convictions overturn due to a number of causes, bad evidence, false confessions, bad informants, falsified/incompetent laboratory procedures. Lets for arguments sake alone, say that 2% of the entire inmate population in the country have been wrongfully imprisoned and are actually innocent. That's 2,300 PEOPLE in jail, suffering and being punished for a crime they didnt commit. Maybe that is acceptable to you, but its not to me.

[Prada]

It probably just means our law enforcement is better organized and has better equipment... would could be expected in a wealthy nation.

but yup there is also a lot of stuff that could land u in prison..
but a lot of people are also repeat offenders.
bottom line is these people are in there for a reason or another.
They did something bad to someone else, like stealing, or murder, or assault.. or got caught with drugs probably on multiple occasions

But then with that argument you would expect, UK, France, Germany, Japan et cetera to be up there with the US at the top of the list. That isnt the case, quite the reciprocal. Perhaps one can even go to the extent of saying the UK and Germany have better law enforcement. To my knowledge the UK have CCTVs camera sset up.

[Pooks]

But then with that argument you would expect, UK, France, Germany, Japan et cetera to be up there with the US at the top of the list. That isnt the case, quite the reciprocal. Perhaps one can even go to the extent of saying the UK and Germany have better law enforcement. To my knowledge the UK have CCTVs camera sset up.

I bet we got more excess cash floating around to spend on drugs in the United States than Europe... same as we got more excess cash floating around to buy big SUV"s etc..

[thegodfather]

I bet we got more excess cash floating around to spend on drugs in the United States than Europe... same as we got more excess cash floating around to buy big SUV"s etc..

Excess cash? You mean the kind where we borrow about 3 billion dollars a day from China because we have no money here? We are in a defecit, if you consider defecit spending to be excess cash, then..............I guess you could make the stretch to say we have more CREDIT to spend on things like this. As it stands now though, the US has no surplus.

[Prada]

Wouldnt you say its a bit odd though that the US has alot higher percentage of its population in jail than any other country? The only ones coming close are shit poor and corrupt countries.

It either means your locking people up for stupid reasons(like petty drug crimes) or your a bunch of crazy bastards

Thats very courteous of you.

[Dizz28]

Wouldnt you say its a bit odd though that the US has alot higher percentage of its population in jail than any other country? The only ones coming close are shit poor and corrupt countries.

It either means your locking people up for stupid reasons(like petty drug crimes) or your a bunch of crazy bastards

I've come to believe both are true....

[Dizz28]

There are about 300 million people in the US today, 2.3million of them are behind bars

about .77% or 7.7 per 1,000. That's still a lot

[Act of God]

Pooks I can't even begin to understand where you are coming from. Don't you realize that there are tons of laws that were simply enacted due to money (making Edited. Read the board rules. No rec drug posts. illegal) or social pressure (gear illegal even though DEA/FDA didn't want to make it illegal)?

Just because some old politicians voted to make something illegal doesn't make that act truly a crime. Seriously, they can make ANYTHING illegal at this point. Fatty foods, soda, motorcycles, airplanes, video games, etc...

We DON'T have to accept that. You can't legislate morality and you can't put every American citizen in a harm-free bubble. What's life worth if you're go around encased in bubble wrap?

[Pooks]

Pooks I can't even begin to understand where you are coming from. Don't you realize that there are tons of laws that were simply enacted due to money (making Edited. Read the board rules. No rec drug posts. illegal) or social pressure (gear illegal even though DEA/FDA didn't want to make it illegal)?

Just because some old politicians voted to make something illegal doesn't make that act truly a crime. Seriously, they can make ANYTHING illegal at this point. Fatty foods, soda, motorcycles, airplanes, video games, etc...

We DON'T have to accept that. You can't legislate morality and you can't put every American citizen in a harm-free bubble. What's life worth if you're go around encased in bubble wrap?

You got me wrong bro..
My beef is that everytime they try to think of a solution, they do it thru GOVT intervention.. making gov't bigger or somehow more involved..

Thats what I don't like.

They only think of solutions through Addition... not deduction...
but thats looking through the eyes of the gov't

to see how that really impacts us.. u got to flip it..

its DEDUCTION of our money, thru taxes, or freedom thru other gov't involvement in our lives..
we need solutions by ADDITION.. addition to our pockets with less taxes.. and addition of more freedom thru smaller govt

[Act of God]

then we are in the same place, but I'm not totally following the way you took to get there

[whiteowl]

the republican party used to stand for fiscal conservatism and got me votes for 30+ years....the last six + years it was like sending a bunch of Beverly Hills teenagers to Rodeo drive with their daddy's credit cards....W has yet to veto a single spending bill....excess cash? that would be China's....thanks to the Republicans we do not have any and won't for some time.