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Thread: Dying for lack of health insurance... CNN Story

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    Dying for lack of health insurance... CNN Story

    Universal Health Care for All and this is 1 of the many reasons why…

    Story Highlights
    Cancer society: Uninsured 60 percent more likely to die within 5 years of diagnosis
    Uninsured Atlanta man has had cancer for 25 of his 52 years
    He eventually got insurance, but treatment came too late

    By John Bonifield
    CNN

    ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- Mark Windsor looks exhausted. For a week he's been undergoing radiation treatment on a cancerous tumor in his neck. A metal rod fused to his spine keeps his head stable. His muscles there are gone, the result of multiple failed surgeries to rid him of his disease. He can't turn his head sideways or look up or down. So his look stays fixed, despite his fatigue.

    "If I probably had gotten some good treatment several years ago I probably would have been cured," Windsor said from his home in Atlanta, Georgia.
    The reason he didn't get care sooner -- he couldn't afford it, because he didn't have insurance. Windsor, a self-employed photographer, has had bone cancer -- a rare chondrosarcoma -- for more than 25 years. At 52, that's almost half his life. While he's found help from a few generous doctors, his efforts to survive have often been desperate. And now he's learned, largely in vain.

    "I've been given anywhere from 18 months to three years," Windsor said. "And of course that's if I continue to go through these brutal treatments that I don't know that my body is capable of doing anymore. I'm tired. I've had a lot of operations in my life. And this radiation treatment wasn't much better on it. It's now taken my ability for taste away. My smell is horrible. I feel nauseated every day. And I just don't think this ever had to get to this."

    Windsor first asked for the radiation therapy 13 years ago, long before his cancer had advanced into the brutal disease that's now assailing him. If he had been treated anytime sooner, the therapy might have worked to eradicate his tumors, when they were still small. But without insurance, Windsor couldn't afford the proper surgeries and follow-up care needed for the radiation to be effective.

    The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis. Without insurance, the diagnosis is twice as likely to come in the later stages of cancer.Just when Windsor's lack of insurance started killing him is difficult to say. His timeline is long. But Windsor points to a period in the fall of 2006.
    His cancer had returned. But this time, the surgeon who had donated his services was no longer on staff at the hospital where Windsor was on a charity plan. His lifesaving operation wouldn't be possible.

    "All of a sudden I'm out here in this world with no hospital and no doctor. And everybody I faxed -- I got on my computer and sent out e-mails and faxes to at least 20 neurosurgeons in Atlanta and not a single one responded," Windsor said.

    If Windsor were poor, he could've found insurance through Medicaid, but his $30,000 income was too much to qualify. So instead, he walked into an Atlanta emergency room.

    "All they did for me ... was check my blood pressure and my temperature," Windsor recalls. "I said, 'This is not the answer.' "

    Thirteen hours later, feeling frustrated, he left. A few months later, he found his answer: He got health insurance when he married his good friend, Val Chamberoam, who put him on her health policy.

    By the time Windsor got to the operating room, in the summer of 2007, his tumor was so large that it covered his entire neck. It had been growing for 10 months.

    "It's just never recovered," Windsor said. "It's gone from grade one to grade three, and also now has spread to my lungs."

    Today, there's nothing more doctors can do. The radiation Windsor is receiving will only prolong his life, not save it.
    And what about his wife, Val?

    "We're going through a divorce," he said. "Because I have so many hospital bills now, insurance companies have denied to pay them...so I've done what I think is proper, filed for divorce, so that my wife is not stuck with my hospital bills."

    For now, Windsor finds pleasure in the smiles of the people he photographs. As for his own, you never see it. His face is grim and angry.
    "I'm angry at the greed of the insurance companies," Windsor said. "Everybody has the right to make profits. Every corporation has the right to be strong, make the right decisions. But I don't think that it is proper to deny people with chronic disease the opportunity to get well."
    Windsor's sentiment is probably shared by many of the nearly 50 million Americans who have no health insurance.

    Karen Ignani, president and CEO of America's Health Insurance Plans, says the organization would like to see all Americans covered. "Anytime anyone falls through the cracks, this is a major societal, national problem. What we've done recently is our members have recognized that individuals who are not being sponsored by employers, don't have employer coverage or aren't eligible for public programs need additional help," Ignani said.
    "We proposed a strategy that involves setting up risk pools at the state level and our members agreeing to backstop those risk pools by taking everyone who may not be able to be eligible."

    In May, Windsor will begin government-sponsored disability insurance. He'll be covered for the remainder of his life, however short it may be
    John Bonifield is an associate producer with CNN Medical News.

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/04/25...sor/index.html

    I really look forward to the responses to this thread…

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    So, what you're asking me to do is pay for their health insurance as well as mine.

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    the answer to the worlds problems is to let somebody else take care of you. the guy made 30gs a year i could have sold him a health policy at $80 a month.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    So, what you're asking me to do is pay for their health insurance as well as mine.
    Is that too much to ask selfish sally... You see a man dying on the street and just walk by, "Not my problem," would probably be your answer. It's not like their going to take a ridiculous sum out of your paycheck, they'll take a little out of everyones to cover this amazing plan. Oh, and what's that other response, it's socialism? Well who cares, socialism wasn't "entirely" bad or no one would have wanted it as a government. Universal Healthcare would be a blessing, life is too great to throw away like this poor man had to do...

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    Fat Guy, what do you think causes high health insurance premiums?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blome View Post
    Fat Guy, what do you think causes high health insurance premiums?
    oh, oh I know this one, pick me, pick me!

    Total abuse of our healthcare system and unhealthy lifestyle of Americans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LawMan018 View Post
    Is that too much to ask selfish sally... You see a man dying on the street and just walk by, "Not my problem," would probably be your answer. It's not like their going to take a ridiculous sum out of your paycheck, they'll take a little out of everyones to cover this amazing plan. Oh, and what's that other response, it's socialism? Well who cares, socialism wasn't "entirely" bad or no one would have wanted it as a government. Universal Healthcare would be a blessing, life is too great to throw away like this poor man had to do...
    evidently he didn't care to much about his health, why didn't he have a little bit taken out of his pay check? what is that called? pathetic or darwinism? evidently he felt it is "not my problem" well it was his problem not mine and not Kratos. Talk about selfish, he doesn't want to pay for his own health insurance but wants us to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    oh, oh I know this one, pick me, pick me!

    Total abuse of our healthcare system and unhealthy lifestyle of Americans.
    And do you think it's going to get any better doing nothing? People need to be educated a lot more, for the most part, we're pretty stupid sometimes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    oh, oh I know this one, pick me, pick me!

    Total abuse of our healthcare system and unhealthy lifestyle of Americans.
    Close, but that's a symptom not the cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LawMan018 View Post
    Oh, and what's that other response, it's socialism? Well who cares, socialism wasn't "entirely" bad or no one would have wanted it as a government. Universal Healthcare would be a blessing, life is too great to throw away like this poor man had to do...
    I sincerely hope this is a joke, otherwise you need a detailed lesson in history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LawMan018 View Post
    Is that too much to ask selfish sally... You see a man dying on the street and just walk by, "Not my problem," would probably be your answer. It's not like their going to take a ridiculous sum out of your paycheck, they'll take a little out of everyones to cover this amazing plan. Oh, and what's that other response, it's socialism? Well who cares, socialism wasn't "entirely" bad or no one would have wanted it as a government. Universal Healthcare would be a blessing, life is too great to throw away like this poor man had to do...
    Well you're probably still in college and don't have much experience paying taxes. I live in a duplex, with tenants living above me collecting welfare and they live better than I do. I have a high stress job and I haven't been able to put a kitchen in my apartment or put away anything away for the future in years. This goverment can't afford the obligations it already has, hence the value of the dollar is going to shit in a handbasket.

    What do I see in my job everyday, needless spine fusions for back pain. 50% of the people even ever feel better after. They are being done because people are demanding it..."my back hurts." "I need pain medicine." "I need to be disabled." These operations were almost never done 15 years ago.

    "I'm too fat, I ruined my knees, put new ones in." "I clogged my artieries, fix them." The list goes on and on. We have the highest heathcare cost of any nation because we put a lot of demands on our healthcare system.

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    Lawsuits arn't helping the system either. People arn't afraid to sue a doctor or hospital I can tell you that. The neuro surgeons I know pay 200k in malpractice insurance. People try to hit the lottery on them all the time. Usually the surgeons attitude is, if I made a mystake I should pay for it but if you take me to court and loose at least pay me for my time. Their office overhead can be 200-500 $ per hr and they're stuck in court. Nobody wants to work.

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    How about the people who are 50, want to retire, but don't want to be without health insurance? They won't be eligiable for medicare for years. There is a group of people right there you are keeping in the workforce, paying taxes, making money, and producing for the economy.

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    Think about the total economic cost, you disincentives working even further, in a country where the American dream is becoming sitting on your ass. What kind of country will this become?

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    I'm getting sick of it all, drop out of highschool or go to grad school and get a good job...work/don't work it's all the same, you are entitled to the same standard of living. Well I say you arn't entitled to shit. I worked hard to get where I am, I'm sick of the whole thing, people who won't help themselves can rot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    Lawsuits arn't helping the system either. People arn't afraid to sue a doctor or hospital I can tell you that. The neuro surgeons I know pay 200k in malpractice insurance. People try to hit the lottery on them all the time. Usually the surgeons attitude is, if I made a mystake I should pay for it but if you take me to court and loose at least pay me for my time. Their office overhead can be 200-500 $ per hr and they're stuck in court. Nobody wants to work.
    Yep, lawsuits are certainly a huge contributer, but there is a bigger reason for high healthcare costs. The same reason that prevented Mark Windsor (the guy in the article) from getting the health insurance that he needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blome View Post
    Yep, lawsuits are certainly a huge contributer, but there is a bigger reason for high healthcare costs. The same reason that prevented Mark Windsor (the guy in the article) from getting the health insurance that he needed.
    lets hear it blome

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    lets hear it blome
    I want to hear from Fat Guy first. You, most likely, already know it or could figure it out.

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    I watched a story on 20/20 or dateline or something like that. This guy need a tooth pulled and it would have cost a couple hundred bucks to have it done. He didn't have insurance, the whole story was about how the system had failed him. There was a free clinic where doctors voulenteered their time at different locations around the country at different times. The guy drove 300 miles and spent 18 hours in his truck to be seen and have his tooth pulled.

    The whole time they are trying to convice me we need universal healthcare for the guys like this I'm thinking..."WTF, he just drove 300 miles in his truck both ways and wasted 18 hours in a parking lot to save a few hundred bucks." First of all that's like 35 gallons of gas if he gets 17 miles to the gallon. 35*3.25= like $120, he wasted 18 hours and could have worked some kind of job with the whole day and a half he wasted. His truck looked almost new, maybe he could get a cheaper car and use the car payment to buy some f-ing insurance.

    The media has this country brainwashed, everything is pro goverment heath coverage. Well, they're selling and I'm not buying. People don't go without coverage in this country unless they decide to wing it. That guy made 30 grand a year as a photographer, that's a fun job with plenty of free time he could work doing something else on the side, not to mention I'm sure that 30k was after he expensed all his camara and fun equipment he loves having. He had a wife that also brought home some money I'm sure, he could have bought a policy and deducted it as a business expense as I'm sure he is his own employee.

    Fat guy isn't going to convince me the goverment will do a better job or that I'm responsible for anyone but myself. The goverment is way too deep in healthcare already.

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    One more question Fat Guy, who do you think is calling for sociliazed medicine more than anyone else? The american people or the healthcare industry itself?

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Blome View Post
    Fat Guy, what do you think causes high health insurance premiums?
    Quote Originally Posted by Blome View Post
    Yep, lawsuits are certainly a huge contributer, but there is a bigger reason for high healthcare costs. The same reason that prevented Mark Windsor (the guy in the article) from getting the health insurance that he needed.
    O.K. it sounds as if you are fishing for an answer but why don’t you cut to the chase and explain why you think health care cost are so expensive for average Americans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blome View Post
    I sincerely hope this is a joke, otherwise you need a detailed lesson in history.
    This is a naïve statement because there are many socialized countries that exist today and have a fine system of economics and human services. The U.S. already has many socialized aspects to its society (education, police/ fire/ emergency services, social security, roads and infrastructures, military, law enforcement and intelligence agencies, prison systems, etc.).

    So the idea here is to say that the government should not provide or give equal access to all its services because the government is inept, there is much evidence to show that the government can effectively produce services or otherwise it would be police for hire or fire departments for hire, marines for hire, etc.

    If this is the standard pure capitalist argument that the free market will take care of itself then there is much evidence to refute that outdated idea. All you have to do is look at countries like India and Mexico where there are no social service what so ever and it is a pure capitalist idea when you have to pay for everything (emergency services, education, roads, etc) and decide which countries live a better standard of living.

    You see by everyone contributing just a little the greater good or a better standard of living can be achieved. There is always more strength in number than just the individual. Countries like France, Canada, England, Germany, Denmark, are not perfect because they tend to be more socialized but in many cases just have a better standard of living for it’s citizens unlike the U.S. As a matter of fact it was reported last month that Denmark reported being the happiest country on earth by the associated press which is an extremely socialized country. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n3833797.shtml

    So let’s not be so egocentric and lambaste other countries that differ from our own economical political structure… because to do so would be just naïve
    Last edited by Fat Guy; 04-25-2008 at 04:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blome View Post
    One more question Fat Guy, who do you think is calling for sociliazed medicine more than anyone else? The american people or the healthcare industry itself?
    To me it is irrelevant as to who is calling for universal health care. A health care system that people can go to when they are sick and do not have the ability to pay (at that time) is worth it from my humanist perspective.

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    Wow, that response I was waiting for was much less insiteful than I was hoping for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    Wow, that response I was waiting for was much less insiteful than I was hoping for.
    Some days are better than others...

    Maybe you can inspire me….
    Last edited by Fat Guy; 04-25-2008 at 04:02 PM.

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    As for Denmark... Denmark's with very few valuable natural resources needs to be highly productive, or efficient, and ********** to compete with other countries for a market share in the global economy. However, according to OECD, the distortions imposed by a combined marginal tax wedge of 70% (60% income tax plus 25% VAT, not counting elevated excise duties on certain goods) are hurting productivity and in turn the country's competitiveness

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Guy View Post

    You see by everyone contributing just a little the greater good or a better standard of living can be achieved. :
    hmmm, sounds like communism just a little bit doesn't it?

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    the govmt cannot even handle medicare which only covers a small percentage of our population, what makes us think that they can efficiantly take care of everyones health care. the govmt let private companies get involved in medicare for the sole reason of handling paper work and paying claims on time.

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    Health insurance companies beat the doctors and hospitals up pretty bad on pricing. I don't see how it can be done better.

    One place the doctors get back at them is by not accepting that insurance in rural areas. Eventually those people with that insurance coverage end up in the emergency room or that doctor's office, and guess what they aren't paying the negotiated rate. They stick it to them right up the ass. What's to keep doctors from doing the same to the national insurance carrier. If I'm a small hospital and there is no competition around why take the universal health insurance that pays me less than the cash price? F-em those patients are gonna end up in my emergency room eventually. These are just some of the problems you are gonna have to solve. Doctors are smart, I could tell you a million ways they beat the insurance system to put more money in their pocket. When they find a loophole they tell all their friends, it gets around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    hmmm, sounds like communism just a little bit doesn't it?
    Call it what you will but I tend to support the idea of “All for one and one for all” maybe when I was a kid I watched too many 3 musketeer movies… but I don’t have a problem paying a little bit more for my fellow man who is sick and can’t afford it.

    Here is an interesting fact out of all the so called “communist’ countries not one of them called themselves communist in their countries name… (Maybe someone could prove this fact wrong… I would be curious to see) The logical conclusion to this is that there has never been a communist government just only a doctrine…

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    Health insurance companies beat the doctors and hospitals up pretty bad on pricing. I don't see how it can be done better.

    One place the doctors get back at them is by not accepting that insurance in rural areas. Eventually those people with that insurance coverage end up in the emergency room or that doctor's office, and guess what they aren't paying the negotiated rate. They stick it to them right up the ass. What's to keep doctors from doing the same to the national insurance carrier. If I'm a small hospital and there is no competition around why take the universal health insurance that pays me less than the cash price? F-em those patients are gonna end up in my emergency room eventually. These are just some of the problems you are gonna have to solve. Doctors are smart, I could tell you a million ways they beat the insurance system to put more money in their pocket. When they find a loophole they tell all their friends, it gets around.
    the battle b/w doctors and insurance companies is never ending. they both work off of the policy "if you cheat me right, ill cheat you right." the doctors over charge and charge for services not rendered, insurance companies dispute every claim and hold off paying until the last minute. as bad as what this sounds it still is more efficient and cheaper than the govmt handling the claims, and that is scary when you talk about them controlling everyones health care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    Health insurance companies beat the doctors and hospitals up pretty bad on pricing. I don't see how it can be done better.

    One place the doctors get back at them is by not accepting that insurance in rural areas. Eventually those people with that insurance coverage end up in the emergency room or that doctor's office, and guess what they aren't paying the negotiated rate. They stick it to them right up the ass.ouch! What's to keep doctors from doing the same to the national insurance carrier. If I'm a small hospital and there is no competition around why take the universal health insurance that pays me less than the cash price? F-em those patients are gonna end up in my emergency room eventually. These are just some of the problems you are gonna have to solve. Doctors are smart, I could tell you a million ways they beat the insurance system to put more money in their pocket. When they find a loophole they tell all their friends, it gets around.
    Under the Hippocratic Oath doctors have to help people anyway and if they stick it to the people eventually the people will just not pay and the doctor looses out. A universal system will make the playing field level for both parties involved. I think the problem with our healthcare system is the idea healthcare for profit without the human cost being involved… You have to admit there are many greedy ceo’s and share holders that are more interested in $$$$ than people… However, this system will eventually fail and I think you are starting to see this
    Last edited by Fat Guy; 04-25-2008 at 04:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Guy View Post
    O.K. it sounds as if you are fishing for an answer but why don’t you cut to the chase and explain why you think health care cost are so expensive for average Americans.
    I'm not fishing for an answer; I clearly want to hear your opinion on these subjects.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Guy View Post
    This is a naïve statement because there are many socialized countries that exist today and have a fine system of economics and human services. The U.S. already has many socialized aspects to its society (education, police/ fire/ emergency services, social security, roads and infrastructures, military, law enforcement and intelligence agencies, prison systems, etc.).
    First, if you’re going to point out things that are socialized in our society you shouldn’t pick the services that the government is meant to take care of. These include protection of its people and building/maintaining infrastructure. Second, if you’re going to choose to pick certain social aspects of our economy why not go after social security or our already quasi-socialized healthcare industry? I would guess because they’re two highly flawed services that do a great injustice to the American economy. Not to mention the complete un-sustainability of the social security system that has a large potential to bankrupt us in the not too distant future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Guy View Post
    So the idea here is to say that the government should not provide or give equal access to all its services because the government is inept, there is much evidence to show that the government can effectively produce services or otherwise it would be police for hire or fire departments for hire, marines for hire, etc.
    Again, no it wouldn’t because our government’s main objective is to keep us safe, build infrastructure, ensure human rights and ensure property rights and not much else. Therefore, the marines, the army, and the air force all fall under that list of government obligations. Police work, on the other hand, is handled at lower levels of government depending on the needs of specific counties, but again that falls under the obligations of government albeit state and local government.

    The government is not an entity that is supposed to provide services other than the limited services of protection and upholding personal liberties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Guy View Post
    If this is the standard pure capitalist argument that the free market will take care of itself then there is much evidence to refute that outdated idea. All you have to do is look at countries like India and Mexico where there are no social service what so ever and it is a pure capitalist idea when you have to pay for everything (emergency services, education, roads, etc) and decide which countries live a better standard of living.
    If you’re going to cite examples, please don’t cite them in my favor. In a sense, you’re correct. Mexico does have a free market and yes it does have a lower standard of living when compared to us. However, you leave out the fact that it’s a newly industrialized nation. If you care to research it, Mexico’s economy is growing at extremely fast rates and it’s soon to be on of the fastest growing economies in the world. Currently, you may not want to live there, but when its economy climbs the ladder from 13th place to a top tier economy you can thank the free markets.

    Regarding India, it has the second fastest growing economy in the world! It’s estimated that it’ll be the second largest economy in the very near future. As for why the economy is currently classified as a low-income country, you could look back about 20 years and you’d discover that it had a socialized economy. It wasn’t until after the government deregulated the market that real growth occurred. Coincidence? No, it’s not. The thing that’s really astonishing is that India’s medical tourism industry is thriving! That should tell you something.

    Here’s further proof of India’s economic status after deregulation: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/html/pa554/pa55400001.html.

    Further, of 133 countries with a population over a million only 25 countries reach the status of high income. Of those 25 countries all are capitalist and never has a socialist country reached the high-income status. India is on the list of low-income status, but that’s rapidly changing due to its fast economic growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Guy View Post
    You see by everyone contributing just a little the greater good or a better standard of living can be achieved. There is always more strength in number than just the individual.
    "The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone."
    -Benito Mussolini

    “The higher interests involved in the life of the whole must here set the limits and lay down the duties of the interests of the individual."
    -Adolph Hitler

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Guy View Post
    Countries like France, Canada, England, Germany, Denmark, are not perfect because they tend to be more socialized but in many cases just have a better standard of living for it’s citizens unlike the U.S. As a matter of fact it was reported last month that Denmark was reported the happiest country on earth by the associated press which is an extremely socialized country.

    So let’s not be so egocentric and lambaste other countries that differ from our own economical political structure… because to do so would be just naïve :hello
    Actually, with the facts of socialism compared to capitalism I don’t need to lambaste it. Capitalism is far superior to any other social system and its track record proves it. Socialism has been thoroughly debunked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Guy View Post
    To me it is irrelevant as to who is calling for universal health care. A health care system that people can go to when they are sick and do not have the ability to pay (at that time) is worth it from my humanist perspective.
    Actually, it's extremely relevant. The people who are pushing for this the most are the healthcare lobbyists who spend billions of dollars influencing the politicians that you vote for. The healthcare industry stands to make the most money out of socialized medicine because far more people will have to be insured and far more people will be using the services for even the slightest cold when they otherwise wouldn't. So, while politicians seem to be concerned about the "general welfare" of the country don't be fooled by their true motives, which is always money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    I watched a story on 20/20 or dateline or something like that. This guy need a tooth pulled and it would have cost a couple hundred bucks to have it done. He didn't have insurance, the whole story was about how the system had failed him. There was a free clinic where doctors voulenteered their time at different locations around the country at different times. The guy drove 300 miles and spent 18 hours in his truck to be seen and have his tooth pulled.

    The whole time they are trying to convice me we need universal healthcare for the guys like this I'm thinking..."WTF, he just drove 300 miles in his truck both ways and wasted 18 hours in a parking lot to save a few hundred bucks." First of all that's like 35 gallons of gas if he gets 17 miles to the gallon. 35*3.25= like $120, he wasted 18 hours and could have worked some kind of job with the whole day and a half he wasted. His truck looked almost new, maybe he could get a cheaper car and use the car payment to buy some f-ing insurance.

    The media has this country brainwashed, everything is pro goverment heath coverage. Well, they're selling and I'm not buying. People don't go without coverage in this country unless they decide to wing it. That guy made 30 grand a year as a photographer, that's a fun job with plenty of free time he could work doing something else on the side, not to mention I'm sure that 30k was after he expensed all his camara and fun equipment he loves having. He had a wife that also brought home some money I'm sure, he could have bought a policy and deducted it as a business expense as I'm sure he is his own employee.

    Fat guy isn't going to convince me the goverment will do a better job or that I'm responsible for anyone but myself. The goverment is way too deep in healthcare already.
    Weird, i just saw a 20/20 with John Stossel that completely bashes socialized healthcare.

    Check it out:
    Part 1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=kf3MtjMBWx4&feature=related
    Part 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=7W37NkjplWQ&feature=related
    Part 3: http://youtube.com/watch?v=7XsRzfckneg&feature=related
    Part 4: http://youtube.com/watch?v=YGj4Ei9l0iI&feature=related
    Part 5: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xsp_Jh5EIT0&feature=related
    Part 6: http://youtube.com/watch?v=E_KCLm9cekU&feature=related

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Guy View Post
    Under the Hippocratic Oath doctors have to help people anyway and if they stick it to the people eventually the people will just not pay and the doctor looses out. A universal system will make the playing field level for both parties involved. I think the problem with our healthcare system is the idea healthcare for profit without the human cost being involved…
    Profit motivates innovation! There's nothing wrong with someone who makes a profit off a new way to do surgery or a highly advanced piece of medical equipment. They worked hard to invent it and they deserve every penny that they get. Otherwise, you and I would not benefit from them and their minds. Atlas Shrugged anyone?

    Furthermore, why should someone who struggled and payed dearly to get through medical school to help others by providing a service that benefits society more than any other field not be rewarded for his/her efforts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Guy View Post
    You have to admit there are many greedy ceo’s and share holders that are more interested in $$$$ than people… However, this system will eventually fail and I think you are starting to see this
    The greed of the CEO and share holder's are not products of the free market system. High insurance premiums are directly related to government collusion in healthcare. Without, government internvention, HMO's would be completely eradicated because the free market would not support it (HMO's are not a product of the free market). You would end up having direct patient-to-doctor relationships where there would be negotiations of what the best course and most affordable healthcare would be. For routine doctor visits you would pay in cash and for major health crisis's you could have cheap, but reliable insurance, which would be a by product of the deregulated market. The best way to do this is with medical savings account, which are tax exempt accounts that allow the individual to spend the money how and where they choose. This would've certainly allowed people like Mark Windsor the chance and the affordability to purchase the healthcare they desperately need.

    Instead, we have a third party payer environment that promotes dependency and rewards chronic abuse of our healthcare system. People who have insurance often lead unhealthy lifestyles because when they get sick they don't see the immediate costs, yet overall costs do increase for every policyholder. The majority of doctors charge high premiums for routine visits because the patient isn't normally paying in cash. Therefore, they squeeze every penny out of the insurance companies and incentive to provide cheap visits are lost because competition is non-existent. Let's not also forget the malpractice suits that arise when a third party is paying the bills. All these lead to the high premiums we face today and all these are direct result of government meddling in the 1960's and culminating in the 1970's with the ERISA law and HMO's. Now that we see the unintended effects of governement internvention the last thing we should do is introduce more of it.

    On a side note, for an example of socialized medicine here in the US just look at our veterans hospitals and how poorly they're run. Than ask yourself if you want our government running our healthcare industry.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blome View Post
    Profit motivates innovation! There's nothing wrong with someone who makes a profit off a new way to do surgery or a highly advanced piece of medical equipment. They worked hard to invent it and they deserve every penny that they get. Otherwise, you and I would not benefit from them and their minds. Atlas Shrugged anyone?
    That's very true. I work in a purchasing department in a hospital and companies like Phillips, Baxter, and hundreds of others are always trying very hard to get the contracts from us, and the price and quality of the products are the main reasons for who gets the contracts and individual purchases.

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    I almost dont know where to begin. Perhaps I will start with this. FatGuy, I had asked you earlier to bring your credentials to the table when trying to discuss universal healthcare and policies which will effect 350,000,000 US Citizens. You seem to be fine to committing them all to a 60% income tax rate. This however, was never the intention of our founding fathers, for the government rob us of the money we earned off our labor, and it was certainly never their intention for government to take care of us from cradle to grave. It is a recent development say the passed 50 years, that our population has been indoctrinated with this "government knows best" attitude. The majority of our history, supported by facts, statistics, and other evidence actually shows to the contrary, the government does not know best, and government often knows worst. Our government is notorious for fouling up things.

    I am getting off track. Please, when we speak of credentials. I hold no bias towards a union laborer who wants to talk politics, economics, &public health policy; so long as you can support your positions with research, facts, statistics, or at least some type of evidence which shows you have researched this area in any great detail, and that you are even the least bit educated in the area of politics and particularly public health policy.


    Regarding "COMMUNIST" countries. The reason you have not seen the name communist included in the names of the countries we've labeled as communists is rather simple. Karl Marx's true communist society was always preceded by Socialism. He believed that it was a natural progression, and actually believed that a Capitalist society had to precede Socialism/Communism in order to work. I will not dive too deep into his political philosophy for the sake of time, and that it gets a little wierd at some points. But basically, the Socialist state always had to precede the true communist state. Marx also believed that this Communist state would arise Democratically, that the worlds working class would unite and all decide to institute a Communist government. Anyway, just a little background on that issue for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by FatGuy
    You see by everyone contributing just a little the greater good or a better standard of living can be achieved. There is always more strength in number than just the individual. Countries like France, Canada, England, Germany, Denmark, are not perfect because they tend to be more socialized but in many cases just have a better standard of living for it’s citizens unlike the U.S. As a matter of fact it was reported last month that Denmark reported being the happiest country on earth by the associated press which is an extremely socialized country.
    And when people from those countries need the latest and most advanced surgeries and treatments, where do they go? The United States. Our country has the most technologically advanced healthcare system for a reason. You can only have such innovation and advancements in a capitalist setting. The innovation that the free market encourages, drives, pushes, and fuels is unmatched in any socialist country.

    Additionally, in socialized healthcare systems such as those, people can be put on 6+ month waiting lists for surgeries that they require. See your belief is that with universal healthcare everyone will have access to healthcare. A universal healthcare system will give everyone access to the system, but when? The answer being, you will have access to the system WHEN the GOVERNMENT see's fit for you to access it. Where in our current system you need a hip replacement, you schedule it for a month in advance. Under universal healthcare, a government employee (AND NOT A DOCTOR) will decide when&where you can have your surgery.

    In addition to this problem, it also reduces the overall QUALITY of our healthcare system. As mentioned previously, without the innovation of the free market, and with the added problems of under funding and increased beauraucracy, our quality of healthcare starts to decline rapidly.

    Next, is the issue of freedom. Giving big brother control of yet another aspect of our lives makes the entire population less free. It acquieces another responsibility to big brother, and inches us ever more down the slippery slope to a totalitarian police state. As I said earlier, government does not know best. The best thing that you can do for a person, is to HELP a person HELP THEMSELVES! That is what a true self proclaimed humanitarian would do.

    I would have to show you montains of data that just do not support universal healthcare as being effacious. I'd urge you to research the topic further on your own and save me the leg work since I have finals coming up. The bottom line, is that you just have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and have not researched this topic in any significant depth that would give you the slightest incling as to what the reality of the situation is. To point to others "naiveity" on the subject is actually laughable.

    Your contempt for educated people making a profit for the invaluable service that they provide to people is unfortunate. You would presume to rely on the service that they provide for you, and yet question the means by which they provide it and the reward that they get for providing it. I'm not sure what job/speciality you perform in the union, but would you think it fair to build houses for people everyday, and get paid a pittance for it, and told that you should work for this pittance to be a "humanitarian." I'm really getting close to economics with that one, but you get the picture, that would be foolish. Health care professionals are paid what they are worth, in fact I think they are even underpaid. There is no price I could put on the life saving work that they do, we should all be grateful to these people. I guess I cannot fault you too much, as this is a pervasive mentality that union workers/laborers have, somewhat of an "us" and "them" mentality. Truth be told, it is the mentality that shows lack of education as clearly evident.

    Like I said, do some research on this topic, and you will come to find that our current system is much preferrable to any universal socialized healthcare system that could be implemented.

  38. #38
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    Blome & TheGodFather I certainly appreciate your comments and enjoy reading your insights… However there are many points that I look forward to countering but as of tonight and tomorrow I will be busy. However, never fret because I promise I will enlighten you further to the many benefits of universal health care later on. Talk to you gentlemen and anyone else who cares to join in on Sunday…
    Peace
    FG

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    Quote Originally Posted by LawMan018 View Post
    Is that too much to ask selfish sally... You see a man dying on the street and just walk by, "Not my problem," would probably be your answer. It's not like their going to take a ridiculous sum out of your paycheck, they'll take a little out of everyones to cover this amazing plan. Oh, and what's that other response, it's socialism? Well who cares, socialism wasn't "entirely" bad or no one would have wanted it as a government. Universal Healthcare would be a blessing, life is too great to throw away like this poor man had to do...
    so if you get up every morning at 6am and work til 6pm and i choose to sit on my but and watch tv all day you are ok with us both living at the same level of lifestyle right?? that's socialism..
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  40. #40
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    Patient stacking sounds wonderful in the UK(waiting in ambulances for up to 5 hours then being admitted into the A&E for another wait time of 4 hours max): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...nhealth218.xml



    Private health care in Canada is thriving (even though it's illegal): http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/in...gewanted=print

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