Dying for lack of health insurance... CNN Story

[SMCengineer]

The only thing I want is to prevent rich people from being able to skip ahead in the line and pay for their own health care and have less non-emergency procedures be dealt with in hospitals, which should be for emergencies, and have them done in smaller clinics.

Does Canada's health care system prevent those things from happen?

[Kratos]

so much is left to the insurance companies.

If that were true, wall street would be all over health insurance stocks. The truth is health insurance company profit magins has hovered around 5% for years now. HMO profit margins around 3.x%. Sure there is greed and CEO's overpaying themselves, a drop in the bucket compared to total $ in and out.

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[SMCengineer]

No one can change my attitude to the US health "administration"! Its shit! its a disgrace.

Insurance etc what a pile of BS! yeah coem pay me some money and we will take care of you if you fall ill, yeah ok man! all you INsurance sales people are in is premiums! and the more you can get and less you pay out to the better!

I fully agree with this. Our system is horrible.

Health serivces shoud not be run like a business and has to make as much money as possible!!

I fully disagree with this. Health care is a business and should be treated as such. They're in it to make money. However, insurance companies, in our third party payer system, allow health care costs to soar by covering up the true costs of the service. Doctors feel that they can charge a premium because the insurance company pays the bills and patients aren't worried worry because their costs will be absorbed by everone that has a plan with that insurance company. Of course, with a third party involved there's also a lot more money available for potential cases of malpractice, which creates incentive to sue and, as a result, premiums increase again. If employers weren't artificially forced by the government to supply an HMO to emplyees then insurance companies wouldn't have the control they have over the healthcare industry.

[thegodfather]

Healthcare is not a right.

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[SMCengineer]

Nah Blome, i am calling BS on tht one (not trying to offend) but i work for a funded serivce just like the NHS... its totally fvcking destroying a decent public serivce trying to run things like a business, bringing in targets and managment speak and shit like that. Let us do our fvcking job i say! Who gives a shit if there are so many incidents in certain areas, it is why im here, to go sort that shit out!

The NHS are in a similar state, with shit pay, shit benefits, shit hours British born people dont want to do the job like they use to in years gone by... the NHS loves this because they can employ cheap labour from abroad (keep the governmnet happy). What a pile of shite!

Running a public service like a business is the first way to crush its quality! An emergency service should not have financial contraints and should be payed for by the tax payer!

Your system has to be run like a business becuse in the eyes of everyone ever involved in it that is what it is, and that is why its a shit system!

Again, the reason why our system is shit is not because it's run like a business. A true business is subject to the forces of the free market. In our system, government essetially gives the entire market over to HMO's and shelter's it from the forces of the free market. Government collusion in health care is what makes it shit.

[Kärnfysikern]

Healthcare is not a right.

But that is quite a abritrary statement, what decides what is or isnt a basic human right? Most europeans for instance consider healthcare and education as human rights just as important as freedom of speech and other basic human rights. IMO education and healthcare is just as important to uphold individual freedom as defense and law enforcment is.

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[SMCengineer]

So you are suggesting that the Health care services first priority is to not make as much money as possible?

Your not understanding my position. If competion existed in the healthcare industry (in the US, which it doesn't) than doctors would have incentive to lower their prices. If they didn't, a cheaper more efficient practice will spring up and take the patients away. However, most people are forced to carry insurance because of government internvention so doctors have no real incentive to be competitive.

The reason the Health services are sheltered by the government is becaue the vast majority of them are in the health care serivces pocket.

It sounds like you're starting to understand. When government gets involved lobbying ensues and the health care industry than has leverage to influence legislation.

[Kratos]

If competion existed in the healthcare industry (in the US, which it doesn't) than doctors would have incentive to lower their prices. If they didn't, a cheaper more efficient practice will spring up and take the patients away. However, most people are forced to carry insurance because of government internvention so doctors have no real incentive to be competitive.
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IDK what you mean? Lower prices and a cash system with no insurance? Insurance companies force the doctors to be competitive. I've seen it to the point doctors are losing money to take care of patients with a certain insurance, they won't accept that insurance. I think competition is alive and well, I see hospitals cut costs to the point the infection rate goes through the roof, then they loose money on treating the infections. I like competition, where do you want to make changes?

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[SMCengineer]

IDK what you mean? Lower prices and a cash system with no insurance? Insurance companies force the doctors to be competitive. I've seen it to the point doctors are losing money to take care of patients with a certain insurance, they won't accept that insurance. I think competition is alive and well, I see hospitals cut costs to the point the infection rate goes through the roof, then they loose money on treating the infections. I like competition, where do you want to make changes?

A direct patient to doctor relationship on a cash basis without the use of insurance for regular check-ups and minor procedures would create more competition than an insurance based system. It would also give patients more freedom in choosing their doctors. You would still have insurance, but only for major procedures and catastrophic events. Of course, this would require tax exempt Health Savings Accounts for employers to be able to give employees the money they take out from wages without being taxed, as it is now.

Why shouldn't employees have the choice of spending the money they earned the way they want instead being forced to choose from the doctors that are on the employers plan?

This should explain it a lot better than I can (it's kind of old, but the principles are the same): www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb108/hb108-27.pdf

[SMCengineer]

Blome i aint gonna insult you or anything but i think you are wrong on your ideas of ur health services.
Why should Vets and Pensioners be denied health care and medical services because they cannot afford it?

First, I'm not insulted at all, I just think you're misinterpreting my position. It's absolutely fine if you disagree with me. Second, in America we have universal health care for our Vets and the system is horrible. It's also the system that most dems point to as an example of what National Health care would be like. Here's some info on it for you: http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8138. That was actually an example I gave earlier. Third, for seniors we have medicare, which is also a horrible system. An article from yesterday's paper: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080429/ts_nm/medicare_dc_2

E.G.
I go to Aston Martin and ask for a new DB9 they say "yes sir certainly! First we have to go through the paper work." It then turns out i cant afford it the car, you think they will give it to me? i mean why not? i can drive.

Ill tell you why, because they are a business, and businesses first priority is not to provide a service, its to make money and as much as that of it as possible.

Tell me the difference in your health care system and the analogy above.

I have to say that analogy is horrible. If you walk into a Aston Martin dealership and you know you can't afford to buy it than you deserve to be turned down, but you still have the choice to go somewhere else that you can afford. That's called freedom to choose and here in the US in the health care industry it's being severly limited.

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[Kratos]

As much as I like the cash system you present it has flaws.
disincentivises going to the doctor for prevention care, cause you are paying out of basically a tax free savings account. Old people and baby boomer's haven't been putting away all these years, so there would need to be a very long transition phase. Doesn't do away with insurance, cash price will always be higher than insurance. Poor people aren't gonna put in so they are still gonna be insurance covered by welfare. Same people who have no insurance now and can't afford health insurance can't afford to with-hold money from their pay checks for their medical future.

I'm around medicine too much to believe this would ever work. The individual doesn't have the same power to negotiate price as big insurance.

[SMCengineer]

Its not a horrible analogy its a very good one actually how people get turned down who cant afford to buy something.
Its a great example how a business conducts itself.

Now like a hopsital, if im sick and go to one i dont want to fill out forms n present my insurance details and all that other BS. If you are sick you are sick. Its all a part of the golden hour when for a human time is at its most critical. From the time of being in an accident to the time you are in proffessional medical care.

I think alot of your medical practicioners in the US have a very narrow mind when it comes to providing a service and should be ashamed of them selfs.
Why do people become Nurses doctors firefighters police officers? money? more often than not its to help people... the only people these wankers are helping is them selfs.

They are no different from a law firm selling representation, the first thing they go through is "how much?" the thing that is different is they (Doctors) are selling you your chance to survive and if you cant afford it "here sir maybe this number for Dr. Nick will be a help to you"

You think a dying or sick person turned away from a hospital gets any more sympathy than i would by walking out of Aston Martin show room with my head hung low having been told dream on mate?

You seem to think I'm defending our current health care system. I'm not! However, your arguement does have one major flaw. People without insurance are not turned away from treatment. By law, hospitals have to treat uninsured patients. So, again, your analogy fails.

How many people die in the US because they cant get medical care? How many vets die because of lack of medical attention or affordable medicine? anyone using this as an example for not having free public health care is a pratt. Look here, look at France and Canada and even look at Cuba!
Nuff said i think

Micheal Moores films are not reliable sources of information. None of those (especially Cuba) health care systems are better than US even with all of our downfalls. Most of time he downright omits information or lies.

Here's some truth about his film: http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8336

[SMCengineer]

As much as I like the cash system you present it has flaws.
disincentivises going to the doctor for prevention care, cause you are paying out of basically a tax free savings account. Old people and baby boomer's haven't been putting away all these years, so there would need to be a very long transition phase. Doesn't do away with insurance, cash price will always be higher than insurance. Poor people aren't gonna put in so they are still gonna be insurance covered by welfare. Same people who have no insurance now and can't afford health insurance can't afford to with-hold money from their pay checks for their medical future.

I'm around medicine too much to believe this would ever work. The individual doesn't have the same power to negotiate price as big insurance.

That's the problem. You're right that a cash system would not work along side of the system that we currently have. There are too many regulations favoring HMO's, which is why we need to reform the whole system. Reform, however, shouldn't mean nationalization, but the status quo obviously doesn't cut it.

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[Kratos]

Here's another though blome, why as a younger guy would I ever opt out of the insurance system, in favor of saving for the future. In your 20's insurance is cheep. If you've only been saving a few years what happens if you break your leg skiing or get cancer or something. I'd rather be covered now as well as later.

How much is a dollar now that I put in the lock-box for the future gonna be worth when I need it? I'm assuming the intrest earned in the lock-box isn't very high. Inflation and devaluation of the dollar.

How can anybody save for a real medical catastrophe? When the shit hits the fan, bills can really pile up.

I need an emergency room, better go shop the best price...no, you go to the closest one. We'll get raped on emergent care in a cash system.

[SMCengineer]

Im not going off what Michael Moore was saying. Im going off because i know first hand. I will say i was not meaning Cuba, i meant Columbia.
Either way you are wrong in what you say here as France for starters has been up in the top 5 for a good number of years and last year was ranked in first place with the UK at 17th and Canada at 30th

If you're going off the World Health Organizations report than you should know that it's not a very accurate source either. In fact, it's very politically biased towards government controlled health care.

Here's a decent article explaining what I mean: http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9259

[SMCengineer]

Here's another though blome, why as a younger guy would I ever opt out of the insurance system, in favor of saving for the future. In your 20's insurance is cheep. If you've only been saving a few years what happens if you break your leg skiing or get cancer or something. I'd rather be covered now as well as later.

How much is a dollar now that I put in the lock-box for the future gonna be worth when I need it? I'm assuming the intrest earned in the lock-box isn't very high. Inflation and devaluation of the dollar.

Well, yeah, monetary policy is a huge problem, but it's entirely different subject altogether.

How can anybody save for a real medical catastrophe? When the shit hits the fan, bills can really pile up.

I need an emergency room, better go shop the best price...no, you go to the closest one. We'll get raped on emergent care in a cash system.

Again, you would have insurance for major procedures, but not minor check-ups such as we use now.