Israel is a war criminal!!

[Flagg]

Peace be unto you, Flagg.



I guess we will have to disagree on this. I believe in God, and I believe that even if all the people in the world gathered together in unison, they could not overcome His Decree. I believe that many mighty nations were defeated by God, who were more powerful in the land than Israel. But alas, this is a matter of faith, and so let us agree to disagree, God Willing. No offense.



I also agree that what Hamas is doing is futile, and we--the orthodox Muslims--warn them severely about this.



I disagree with Hamas's methodology, but this does not mean that I do not feel for the Palestinian people in generality. I do NOT at all think there is a moral equivalence between the Palestinians and the Zionist state of Israel. There is an oppressor and there is an oppressed. When the American pioneers vanquished the Native Americans, the oppressors were the Americans and the oppressed were the Native Americans. Just because some of the Native Americans--a good deal of the young ones--resorted to terror tactics did not at all negate the fact that the Native Americans were the oppressed party. The invader is responsible for whatever happens as a result of his invasion. If some of the occupied peoples resort to terror tactics (as inevitably happens in any invasion), then the blame is on the invader, and the occupied people cannot be blamed for that. If I rob a bank and in the commission of the crime one of the police officers accidentally shoots a bystander, then *I* am to blame since had I not chosen to rob the bank, none of this would have happened.

We were living in peace side-by-side for hundreds of years. The Jews used to flee persecution in Europe to live in safety in Muslim lands. The Jews had their golden age in the Muslim ruled Andalusia. As Rabbi Dovid Weiss of Neturei Karta (Jews against Zionism) said:

"We as Jews, as practicing Jews, have been living side by side in all the Muslim countries amongst the Arab peoples. We have no problem. The problem is purely political since the creation of this movement, Zionism, which became ultimately the State of Israel."

( http://english.ohmynews.com/articlev...07736&rel_no=1 )

So we wish to return to that state of affairs, before Israel was created and before the colonial British forces occupied our lands. We wish to regain our sovereignty and the right to rule our own land. The Jews will be respected and considered a protected people under our rule, just as was the case before the British and Zionist occupation of our lands.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

Peace unto you also, BuffedGuy.

I do not agree at all with 7 days of Israeli retaliation, but why cant the Jews have their own home where they are not living under the rule of someone else? I can accept that in Andalusia they lived in peace, but is it really their home? It's no different to impossing a New World Order on the entire planet. Israel is the only Jewish state on the planet, I mean where else are they meant to go? Is it not enough that they are allowed to live there, side by side with the surrounding Arab states? Why is land so damn important? It's no different than Israel trying to take Gaza by force, as it is for the decades of war that has been waged on Israel by surrounding Arab states claiming it has no right to exist. However, I am hopeful that a peaceful agreement can be made. Look at Northern Ireland, though not perfect, a Hell of a lot better than its been in the last 30 + years.

[BuffedGuy]

Thank you for your courteous reply, Flagg.

why cant the Jews have their own home where they are not living under the rule of someone else?

We Muslims have no problem with the Jews having their own homeland. If the Germans feel bad about the Holocaust, then they can give a sliver of their land to create a Jewish homeland there. If the Americans feel bad about the Jews being persecuted, then they can give one of their fifty states to the Jews. If the Europeans feel bad about persecuting Jews for so many hundreds of years, then they can give part of their European Union land to the Jews. The Muslims did not carry out pogroms against Jews ever, and certainly not the Palestinians. So why should we give our land to them?

Let's say that the Tutsis kept persecuting and massacring the Hutus, can you imagine what America's reaction would be if the Hutus said "just give us a sliver of your land--say the coast of California? I mean, you guys have soooo much land, from sea to shining sea." No country would ever agree to such a thing.

However, the fact is that the Zionists were offered uninhabited part of Uganda as a homeland. That was going to be the original destination of the Zionist state. But the Zionists--in their religious zeal--refused Uganda and demanded Muslim territory, because they considered their land given to them by God. (If I say that God gave me all of America, I doubt the Americans would say: "OK sure here you go, sir!")

So what we say is: this argument that the Jews had no place else is false. They were offered Uganda; they refused and instead began their colonial takeover of Palestine.

Furthermore, not every people have a right to their own country. If you are a very small minority, you might not get your own land, since land is limited on earth. There are many small religions that exist and do not have a single country to their own, such as the Bahais, Wicca, Zoroastrians, Rastafarianism, etc. Do they all get their own lands? No. Who rules a country depends on who the majority of the people are in that land. Jews make up 0.22% of the world's population ( http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html ), so it is no wonder that they didn't have a homeland for so long.

Yes, they (the Jews)--like all other people--have a right to live in peace and security wherever, such as how they live in America. But do they automatically get another country for themselves? I don't think so. Nonetheless, I had no issue with them taking a part of Uganda, so long as no other people lived there.

Why is land so damn important?

To Muslims, Jews, and Christians, the land of Palestine is considered the Holy Land. So it has a special significance. To Muslims, Jerusalem is one of the three holy cities of Islam. Furthermore, it is a huge base for America in Muslim land. Can you imagine if during the Cold War, Russia demanded that Idaho should be given to the Cuban Fidel Castro? I mean, after all, it's just a small state! But the Americans would never even agree to give a small village to the Cubans, since that would become a base inside the heartland of America for the Russians. Likewise, Israel is a base in the heart of the Middle East for America.

We Muslims are sick of the British, French, Russians, Americans, and other Europeans interfering in our lands. Just stay in your own land and everything will be fine. As presidential candidate Dr. Ron Paul said: 9/11 would NEVER have happened had America not been involved in neo-colonialism in Muslim lands. (Not that 9/11 was justified; it wasn't. But it happened as a direct result of American imperialism.)

Back to the point: Israel is more than just a sliver of land: it is a base for the Americans against the Muslims. It has nukes. Can you imagine if the Russians set up Fidel Castro in Idaho and placed nukes in Idaho? Americans would be trembling in their boots, and DEMAND that Idaho be taken back.

It's no different than Israel trying to take Gaza by force,

It is very different. Gaza has always been Palestinian, whereas Israel is stolen land, a land which they stole just a little over 50 years ago. Before that, all the land was Palestinian.

as it is for the decades of war that has been waged on Israel by surrounding Arab states claiming it has no right to exist.

This is a myth propagated by Israel. Israel has the fourth strongest military in the world. Israel has been harassing and devestating ALL of its neighbors since its creation. The Arab neighbors have a reason to be worried, because the Zionists believe that Eretz Israel (i.e. Biblical Israel) includes a HUGE chunk of all its neighboring Arab countries, all the way deep into Arabia, including the holy city of Madeenah, the capitol of Islam.

Look at this map to see what the Greater Israel means:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...srael-map1.gif

This is what the Zionists intend, and it is only a matter of time before they get it.

However, I am hopeful that a peaceful agreement can be made.

I am not hopeful at all, but if a fair and just peace agreement can be given to the Palestinians, then we (the Muslims) will accept it, because we are a peace-loving people. However, I am not hopeful that the Zionists will ever do that; rather, their peace agreements are designed only to allow their military juggernaut to recharge. It is a part of their divide-and-conquer philosophy. Just like the American pioneers destroyed the Native Americans through false "peace treaties", likewise the Zionists have been doing that.

As the great anti-Zionist Jewish thinker Noam Chomsky said, the Palestinians have lost MORE through the peace agreements with Israel than through war. If we learn ANY lesson from the Native Americans, it is that we should not agree to ANY of these false peace treaties, but instead wage continual resistance and freedom-fighting, altogether united as one. The Zionists cannot be trusted, just like the American pioneers could not be treated. Peace treaties are only as worthy as the word of those who sign it, and the Zionists are treacherous colonialists.

Again, if the Israelis offered a fair peace treaty, we'd jump at it. But included in this peace treaty MUST BE The Right of Return, as guaranteed by international law. So long as they refuse this, the Israelis are war criminals.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin