No it doesn't really help at all...you totally negated the facts I broght up about Muslim disrespect for Christianity and Jews.
I feel accomplished
No it doesn't really help at all...you totally negated the facts I broght up about Muslim disrespect for Christianity and Jews.
Senior Member
Kratos, I am afraid that you do not understand the issues at all. Arab Christians are generally heavily pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist. This is something that is not really talked about in the Western media.Originally Posted by Kratos
The Muslims did not place restrictions on Christian church attendance. Rather, Islamic rule in general (keep in mind that it was hundreds of years) gave them profound religious freedom. It is Israel which prevented them from their religious holy sites, and this because Zionists believe that it is *Jewish* holy land--and therefore the Christians have no reason to be there.
To prove this point to you, I will post an article from a Zionist website (which is well-respected amongst Zionists)...I will bold the important parts:
IntroductionNOTE: Keep in mind that the above was written by a Zionist. It shows the disdain the Zionists have for Christians in Palestine/Israel.
Palestinian Christians have long been among Israel’s most vocal critics, using every opportunity to portray the Jewish state as a malevolent force in world politics... Because of their proximity to Christianity’s most holy sites, they have ready access to visiting Christian leaders in the West who are all too willing to accept a distorted and incomplete narrative about the Arab-Israeli conflict.
...According to the narrative offered by these Christian leaders, peace is solely contingent on Israeli concessions and efforts to reform the Jewish state. And while these leaders condemn Israel, they remain silent about the Arab world’s refusal to accept Israel’s right to exist...
When challenged with instances in which Israeli withdrawals and peace offers have been met with increased violence, these spokespersons portray the peace offers and withdrawals as insubstantial, dishonest attempts to fool people into thinking the Israelis want peace. For example, they have falsely described the Camp David peace plan put forth in 2000 as carving the West Bank into "bantustans," and dismissed the Gaza withdrawal as meaningless because it was a "unilateral" action and not the result of negotiations.
When violence flares up between Israel and its adversaries, these Christians use their access to churches in the West to broadcast such a distorted narrative about the causes and effects of violence in the Middle East.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_co...x_article=1181
The Christians in Palestine want PALESTINIAN unity against Israeli aggression. Read on:
Aside from urging internal Palestinian unity, the key points of the document [endorsed by Christians in Palestine] call for:
* establishment of a Palestinian state in Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza Strip;
* securing the so-called "right of return";
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_co...x_article=1181
In fact, the Middle East Council of Churches BLASTED Israel and supports Palestinians:
Middle East Council of Churches
In a brief one-sided statement issued on June 29, the Middle East Council of Churches, made up of Christian churches located in Muslim-majority countries throughout the Middle East, condemns Israel’s military action in Gaza
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_co...x_article=1181
Here is the conclusion of the Zionist writer:
Discussion
Sadly, this is not the first time Christians in the Middle East have worked to legitimize falsehoods that encourage hostility against Jews.
...Christians in the United States who rely on Arab and Palestinian Christians for information about the Arab-Israeli conflict have an obligation to scrutinize the information offered to them.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_co...x_article=1181
The point is that while most Christians in America are on the side of Israel, Israel is persecuting the Christians in Palestine/Israel. The Christians in Palestine/Israel HATE Israel and have ALWAYS been pro-Palestinian. Unfortunately, this is lost upon Western audiences, because they are highly ignorant.
So Kratos, you really don't understand the issues to begin with. The Muslim rule of this area has historically been very tolerant, to both Jews *and* Christians. The fact is that the Jews had their Golden Age under Islamic rule. They used to flee from Europe to Muslim lands, which gave them refuge from persecution.
As for Christians, Muslims gave them freedom of religion and allowed their churches IMMENSE rule to govern. In fact, churches in the Ottoman Empire wielded way more power than the churches in America do today (due to separation of church and state).
In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.
Last edited by BuffedGuy; 03-25-2009 at 04:45 PM.
AR-Elite Hall of Famer (RETIRED)
this is referring to where? and what time period?
I feel accomplished
I know, it's so complex only you can figure it out
When there is no real history, there is a void, and myths flourish. Although tolerance existed, it was counterbalanced by a system of oppression that led to the open extermination of Christian populations and the disappearance of the Eastern Christian culture. Tolerance was given to Jews and Christians only on the condition that they would accept and submit to a system of persecution and total inferiority.
Senior Member
Absolutely false.
Did you know that Muslims ruled Egypt and Palestine/Jordan/Syria for hundreds of years, and that the Muslims never were a majority in said countries for 500-700 years? In other words, it took 500 and 700 years (respectively) under Islamic rule for Muslims to form a majority (50%) in said areas. Had Muslims wanted to, they could have put everyone to the sword and mass-converted everyone. That is what the Christians did in Spain. You will notice that there was no Muslim spared after that. It was a quick mass conversion.
On the other hand, the Christians remained a MAJORITY in Eygpt/Syria/Jordan/Palestine for 500-700 years. It was only through a very slow process that conversion took place. It was not at all by the sword.
Member
Infact you are very correct Kratos,
I dont know about jews, but the way muslims treat
christians (not counting lebanon) in their muslim
countrys are HORRIBLE.
Offcourse buff will never confess to this
but what does he know? hes never been to
any of these countrys.
I sit and talk with arab friends everyday
who came from these countrys and the storys
they tell on how they and their familes were
treated just because they was christians
and not muslims makes my blood boil.
I went to thailand with my brother
and my girl was supposed to joins us
after 2 weeks. Her airplane landed
on a muslim country (i think it was the emirats?)
to refuel and such, she was supposed to be there
for some hours so she decided to go outside
some gates and immideatly a couple of arab
guards stopped her and told her that she
must cover her head of she wanted to go outside!
Offcourse my girl did not want to cover her head
and stayed inside. Can you IMAGINE the revolt
there whould be if the swedish airport guards
told some muslim women to take off her head
scarf??
Another friend of mine also told me he went to
one of these countrys, he had a very big christian
cross hanging outside his shirt, he was stopped and told
to remove the cross. offcoruse he was suprissed by this
and asked what? the guard told him to remove the cross
and he is very welcome to thier country, otherwise
he was to go back home with the first plane.
Oh and buff, im missing you in the "Obamas kenya ghost"
thread, were muslims are commiting Genocide on christians
hording up people in church (mostly women and children)
and then setting the church on fire to burn them alive
those who try to escape gets hacked to to bits by machetes.
Massmurder everyday, why? Because they are not muslims.
So were is your moral BS talk in that thread huh buff??
Senior Member
Peace be unto you, NightWolf.
Welcome to the conversation.
I am talking about *historically*, not today.I acknowledge that persecution of Jews and Christians in Muslim lands has risen in the Muslim world today, and it is something that I believe we Muslims need to work on, and we are. My favorite Islamic priest does a lot of work to help ameliorate this situation.
The persecution of Jews and Christians in Islamic lands has ramped up due to political events, which has created hatred in the hearts. It is wrong, and unjustifiable.
Nonetheless, one cannot be one-sided on this issue. Muslims are abused under Jewish and Western rule, even today. I don't need to talk much about Israel since we all know what i am talking about. As for Western rule, the way Muslims are treated in Gitmo and other prisons speaks for itself.
The fact is that the people of all faiths need to come together and improve the way we treat each other. I do not at all deny the fault of Muslims. I believe that we really need to work hard to push for the rights of Non-Muslims living in Muslim lands, something which is in our religion, and something which historically Muslims upheld.
I do "confess" to it, and I *have* been to those countries.Offcourse buff will never confess to this
but what does he know? hes never been to
any of these countrys.
It makes my blood boil too, just like my blood boils when I hear how Muslims are treated in American prisons, how Qurans are treated by American soldiers, how American soldiers kill Muslims the world over, etc.I sit and talk with arab friends everyday
who came from these countrys and the storys
they tell on how they and their familes were
treated just because they was christians
and not muslims makes my blood boil.
This is a legitimate gripe you have. In fact, according to Islamic Law, Non-Muslims are not at all mandated to wear the headscarf. This would be imposing Islam on them, and there is no compulsion in religion. This is a matter which I am very outspoken about. In fact, the Second Caliph of Islam actively discouraged Non-Muslim women from wearing the headscarf, because he wanted it to be limited to Muslim women. (He didn't forbid it, but he discouraged it.)I went to thailand with my brother
and my girl was supposed to joins us
after 2 weeks. Her airplane landed
on a muslim country (i think it was the emirats?)
to refuel and such, she was supposed to be there
for some hours so she decided to go outside
some gates and immideatly a couple of arab
guards stopped her and told her that she
must cover her head of she wanted to go outside!
However, you have to understand that there is a huge backlash in Islamic lands nowadays, a reaction to colonialism and neo-colonialism. The Muslim world felt that the west was trying to impose its ways on them, and therefore there was this reactionary backlash. It's wrong, and I believe it must be righted. Nonetheless, it is wrong to demonize Muslims as a whole because of this.
In fact, many European countries have banned the headscarf in schools.Offcourse my girl did not want to cover her head
and stayed inside. Can you IMAGINE the revolt
there whould be if the swedish airport guards
told some muslim women to take off her head
scarf??
One guard. Wow. So many Americans have called me a "sand-n**ger." So what?Another friend of mine also told me he went to
one of these countrys, he had a very big christian
cross hanging outside his shirt, he was stopped and told
to remove the cross. offcoruse he was suprissed by this
and asked what? the guard told him to remove the cross
and he is very welcome to thier country, otherwise
he was to go back home with the first plane.
I did not visit your thread. I will now that you asked.Oh and buff, im missing you in the "Obamas kenya ghost"
thread, were muslims are commiting Genocide on christians
hording up people in church (mostly women and children)
and then setting the church on fire to burn them alive
those who try to escape gets hacked to to bits by machetes.
Massmurder everyday, why? Because they are not muslims.
So were is your moral BS talk in that thread huh buff??
More to come, God-Willing...
Senior Member
I will now post a very unbiased source that confirms how Muslims treated Jews historically. Again, this is not about today (since anti-Semitism has risen due to Israeli actions). This is historically I am talking about. I will cite the words of Rabbi Ted Falcon in "Judaism for Dummies". Those of you who know the "For Dummies" series know that it is a very neutral source. Keep in mind that Senator Joseph Lieberman praised this book:
"A concise and upbeat primer on the Jewish faith, Jewish history, and what it means to be a Jew."Ok, this is what Rabbi Falcon says of Jews under Islamic rule:
(Senator Liberman's review of "Judaism for Dummies"
In general, Jews tended to be better off in Islamic lands than Christian lands during the Middle Ages. Jews and Christians were both considered "Peoples of the Book"--worshiping the same God as Muslims and using holy scriptures--and were therefore protected under Islamic law. The Jewish focus on scholarship gained them admiration, and the Jews, who quickly learned to speak Arabic, were allowed to be a part of the robust intellectual life of the Islamic Empire...to the Jews, Islamic rule was actually a relief from the humiliating treatment they had gotten from the Christians...
Granted, not all Islamic leaders were the same. Whilst most of them were tolerant and ensured the security of life and property, every now and again there were massive forced conversions to Islam, property confiscation, and so on. However, as a whole, these persecutions were shorter in duration and less ferocious than had occurred, and were later to occur, in Christian lands.
(Judaism for Dummies, by Rabbi Ted Falcon, p.162)
I feel accomplished
Turkey has as well and that's a Muslim country. It's a slipery slope to fundamentalism is what it comes down to. Next thing you know you're throwing rocks at women who don't cover up is what the MUSLIMS in Turkey have decided.
Senior Member
Really silly what you just said. Turkey is a fervently secularist country, ever since Ataturk came to power. In Turkey, the religious Muslims are heavily persecuted, and you are damn right that I am going to speak out against that.
Turkey is only a Muslim country insofar as the Soviet Union was a Christian one.
Anyways, the ban on the headscarf in Turkey has been lifted. In any case, persecution of religious Muslims in Turkey continues. I will post an Amnesty International report on this shortly. But of course that doesn't matter to America, since Turkey is a strategic ally in the region.
I feel accomplished
98% of the people in Turkey are Muslim
what do you classify as religous Muslims?
What are you even talking about?
Senior Member
Since the rise of Ataturk in the early 1900s, Turkey has been ruled by fervent non-religious non-practicing secularists. They are Muslim only ethnically, not religiously. In other words, the same way that some Jews are atheists but still call themselves Jewish atheists.
In any case, things are changing in Turkey, and Muslim parties have been becoming more popular, but the secular atheist army keeps a check on them and periodically crushes them.
Once again, you don't understand the issues.
AR-Elite Hall of Famer (RETIRED)
poor example.
they were not detained in Gitmo and other prisons because of their religious beliefs, but because they were suspected terrorists.
true, they were persecuted religiously there...but it's doesn't equate to saying that Muslims are persecuted under Western rule.
and you still never answered my question above.
Senior Member
They rounded up innocent people in Afghanistan, including random taxi cab drivers and the like.
In any case, the West has nothing to boast about in this regard. America has killed many hundreds of thousands of Muslims. That to me is persecution.
Is not Iraq and Afghanistan under Western rule?true, they were persecuted religiously there...but it's doesn't equate to saying that Muslims are persecuted under Western rule.
Which is what? I am working rapid-fire here.and you still never answered my question above.
Member
Sure the prisoners at gitmo are treated with disrespect
and such, but remember its still a PRISON, and not just
any prison, its a place were the US puts people that
they consider a threat to their country, so i think its
unfair to compare my point with gitmo, rather come see
how much rights muslims have here in sweden.
Again you are comparing a maximum prisonIt makes my blood boil too, just like my blood boils when I hear how Muslims are treated in American prisons, how Qurans are treated by American soldiers, how American soldiers kill Muslims the world over, etc.
to a society. What im talking about is how
they (christians) are treated in a muslim
society. And as for the american soldiers
you have to remember, they do not kill
only muslims, they have been to war and killed
much more then just muslims.
Im sure that non muslims are not mandated to wear headscarfThis is a legitimate gripe you have. In fact, according to Islamic Law, Non-Muslims are not at all mandated to wear the headscarf. This would be imposing Islam on them, and there is no compulsion in religion. This is a matter which I am very outspoken about. In fact, the Second Caliph of Islam actively discouraged Non-Muslim women from wearing the headscarf, because he wanted it to be limited to Muslim women. (He didn't forbid it, but he discouraged it.)
according to your religion, BUT you have to understand that
not all of your fellow muslims (not even close) follows the
quran step by step as you do. Therefore when a muslim
society or a person does something in your religions
name (such as this with my girl) we blame the religion
because again, they are doing it in the name of the
religion. Had they not been "muslims" they whould
not have had that rule/law (im talking any random law)
Im not trying to demonize ALL muslims, my 3 best friendsNonetheless, it is wrong to demonize Muslims as a whole because of this
who are brothers are in fact muslims from the lebanon.
but they are VERY much unlike other muslims , they are
very just and fair people, and they consider me as their brother.
And they know my oponin about the majority of muslims.
Anyway im just trying to show the double standards
because around here muslims wants to be treated
equal and they are, but in there own society its
a whole other ball, and thats what im trying to say.
Besides french (whom i think have dumped that law now)In fact, many European countries have banned the headscarf in schools.
what other EU countrys has that rule??
Come on now, dont act stupid. You know very wellOne guard. Wow. So many Americans have called me a "sand-n**ger." So what?
that guard WAS acting on the rule of his country
and airport. What whould you rather a whole military
group show up and tell my friend to remove his cross?
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