Some Fun Facts About America<====

[Jdawg50]

This is from Denise Miller... someone I rarely argee with, and its entitled KISS, Keep it simple Stupid
1) Out of President Bush and Saddam Hussein...Hussein is the bad guy.
2) If you have faith in the United Nations to do the right thing, keep
this in mind: they have Libya heading the committee on human rights and Iraq
heading the global disarmament committee. Do your own math here.
3) If you use Google Search and type in "French Military Victories,"
your reply will be "Did you mean French Military Defeats?"
4) If your only anti-war slogan is "NO WAR FOR OIL," sue your school
district for allowing you to slip through the cracks and robbing you of the
education you deserve.
5) Saddam and Bin Laden will not seek United Nations approval before
they try to kill us.
6) Despite common belief, Martin Sheen is not the President. He only
plays one on TV.
7) Even if you are anti-war, you are still an "Infidel!" and Bin Laden
wants YOU dead, too.
8) If you believe in a "vast right-wing conspiracy" but not in the
danger Hussein poses, quit hanging out with the Dell Computer Dude.
9) Whether you are for military action or against it, our young men and
women overseas are fighting for us to defend our right to speak out. We all
need to support them without reservation.

[SwoleDiesel662]

I'm with you Terinox, but i think that what we're getting in return is safety from one regime that could contribute to our destruction.

[symatech]

Do we only support our troops in time of war???



Ahh, now obviously everybody on this board will tell me 'hell no' and I agree. I always support our troops. So what possesed me to ask this question? Ill tell you....I have read in several newspapers lately that Bush's tax cut has been approved (no i dont agree with it but im not debating that here). What bothers me about it is the following:

OK, we are in debt; everybody knows this it isnt a secret. So if Bush wants to cut tax's for rich people well I cant really stop him can I? However, this will cut down on revenue the country collects. To balance this effect so we dont get further into debt Bush has to either raise taxs for lower income families (which would be political suicide) or cut some spending.

OK OK get to the point I know...Do you know where Bush has chosen to cut spending? (Well, I cant blame Bush entirely, Congress DID approve so they are as much at fault as he) *drum roll* VETEREN'S HEALTH CARE!!!! Thats right, our president and congress -who of couse fully support our troops- just cut $28 BILLION in vetern's health care. So i guess we only support our troops when they are fighting?

I find it ironic that we are only in this war because of bush and this congress. And now hes stabbing OUR SOLDIERS in the back...shame on BUsh.

"Is there no honor in the hallowed halls of our government that you choose to dishonor the sacrifices of our nation's heros and rob our programs....to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy?" - Edward Heath - national commander of disables american veterans.

"Nothing is more important in the face of a war than cutting taxes." - House Majority Leader Tom DeLay


I for one am outraged...and I challenge all pro bush supporters here to justify this. Because I dont see how you can support bush and the troops now. please prove me wrong because i am ashamed to be an american today.

peace

[big N]

thts all facts and if u guys want more i have more factls like that with sourcesand refernances so u csn check them out for ur self.

[JasonNew-b]

Mr. Moore plays into all of the worst stereotypes and distortions about America. "Bowling for Columbine" attempts to explain interventions by the U.S. military as rooted in an inherently violent domestic culture. "I agree with the National Rifle Association when they say, 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people,'" he told NBC's Today show. "Except I would alter that to say, 'Guns don't kill people, Americans kill people.' We're the only country that does this, and we do it on an personal level in our neighborhoods and within our families and our schools, and we do it on a global level. The American attitude is that we believe we have a right to just go in and bomb another country. This is where Bush is going right now, right?"

To make this strained connection, Mr. Moore tries to make us believe that the two mentally disturbed high school students who massacred their fellow students at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., grew up in a community that has a sinister connection to the military-industrial complex. A Lockheed Martin factory in Littleton manufactures "weapons of mass destruction," Mr. Moore claims. The factory actually makes rockets that carry TV satellites into space. And the very title of Mr. Moore's film is based on a deception. It refers to the bowling class that the Columbine killers supposedly took the morning they committed their murders. The only problem is that they actually cut the class.

Forbes reports that an early scene in "Bowling" in which Mr. Moore tries to demonstrate how easy it is to obtain guns in America was staged. He goes to a small bank in Traverse City, Mich., that offers various inducements to open an account and claims "I put $1,000 in a long-term account, they did the background check, and, within an hour, I walked out with my new Weatherby," a rifle.

But Jan Jacobson, the bank employee who worked with Mr. Moore on his account, says that only happened because Mr. Moore's film company had worked for a month to stage the scene. "What happened at the bank was a prearranged thing," she says. The gun was brought from a gun dealer in another city, where it would normally have to be picked up. "Typically, you're looking at a week to 10 days waiting period," she says....

Mr. Moore makes the preposterous claim that a Michigan program by which welfare recipients were required to work was responsible for an incident in which a six-year-old Flint boy shot a girl to death at school. Mr. Moore doesn't mention that the boy's mother had sent him to live in a crack house where her brother and a friend kept both drugs and guns -- a frequently lethal combination....

Mr. Moore repeats the canard that the United States gave the Taliban $245 million in aid in 2000 and 2001, somehow implying we were in cahoots with them. But that money actually went to U.N.-affiliated humanitarian organizations that were completely independent of the Taliban.

David Hardy, a former Interior Department lawyer who delights in debunking government officials and pompous celebrities, has uncovered even more evidence of Mr. Moore's distortions. The film depicts NRA president Charlton Heston giving a speech near Columbine; he actually gave it a year later and 900 miles away....

Ben Fritz of Spinsanity.org also notes that Mr. Moore has "apparently altered footage of an ad run by the Bush/Quayle campaign in 1988" to buttress his claim that racial symbolism is frequently misused in American politics. His leading example is the case of Willie Horton, a murderer who became a major issue in the 1988 presidential campaign. Mr. Moore shows the Bush ad that generically attacked a prison furlough program in Michael Dukakis's Massachusetts. Superimposed over the footage of prisoners entering and exiting a prison are the words "Willie Horton released. Then kills again." While the caption appears to be part of the original ad, Mr. Moore actually inserted it; the ad made no mention of Horton. (Another ad, sponsored by the National Security Political Action Committee, a conservative group independent of the Bush campaign, did mention Horton; it aired only briefly in a few cable markets.) The phony Moore caption also is inaccurate; Horton brutalized a Maryland couple and raped the wife, but didn't kill anybody while on furlough....

Mr. Moore would deserve an Academy Award if there were an Oscar for Best Cinematic Con Job. If "Bowling for Columbine" is a comedy, most of its fans don't know it. They actually believe they're watching something that is in rough accord with reality.

[jeffylyte]

as much as I dilike GW and many of the things he says, I dislike Moore just as much. I hate all parrots who can't think for themselves, party line spouters, and those that believe something before they look at the facts and try to justify what they believe. If we all took a real look at ourselves and applied a little logic in our thought processes, things would be much better...and we would be without GW and Mr. Moore!

[symatech]

Originally posted by jeffylyte
as much as I dilike GW and many of the things he says, I dislike Moore just as much. I hate all parrots who can't think for themselves, party line spouters, and those that believe something before they look at the facts and try to justify what they believe. If we all took a real look at ourselves and applied a little logic in our thought processes, things would be much better...and we would be without GW and Mr. Moore!

amen bro...thats what ive been tryin to get people to understand. We cant just accept what we are told...seek the truth, then form your own opinions...

[SwoleDiesel662]

I think it's fantastic when republicans and democrats point
s out what they don't like about their opponents plan and use it to make them look like a mean spirited person. It is much fun!

[symatech]

Originally posted by SwoleDiesel662
I think it's fantastic when republicans and democrats point
s out what they don't like about their opponents plan and use it to make them look like a mean spirited person. It is much fun!

yeah thats politics and EVERYBODY does it. wouldnt the country be a better place if politicians were more mature.


peace

[symatech]

Originally posted by SwoleDiesel662
I think it's fantastic when republicans and democrats point
s out what they don't like about their opponents plan and use it to make them look like a mean spirited person. It is much fun!

LOL, we just had elections a while back in austin and the two major candidates running for governor waged the most malicious campaigns i have seen. NEVER in either one of thier political ads or commercials did they ever discuss issues. All it consisted of was mudslingin. Whether it was accusing 1 of stealing $$$ or accusing the other of being in cahoots with drug dealers...shameless....have politicians no shame?

[jeffylyte]

no! the only president that I can think of in the post WW2 history with a sense of honor and ethics was Carter and unfortunately it hurt his presidency. when the backstabbing begins it helps to have a poisoned knife!

[Red Ketchup]

Originally posted by symatech

have politicians no shame?

Er....?

No!


But seriously... think about this...

Most politicians are very well educated people, people who make oodles of money in the private sector. They are doctors, lawyers, economists... people making 6 and 7 figure salaries...

And then one day they decide to give it all up and go into politics... they campaign and spend time, money and energy to get in office. They put everything into it. All that for a measely fixed salary... (have you ever seen the "OFFICIAL" salary most politicians make? A senior programmer at M$ probably makes more than your president or my prime-minister!)

I'd like someone to explain that one to me!

Could there be dishonesty kickbacks and corruption in politics? Naaaaah! Impossible!

Red

[Terinox]

Yeah by Red, don't they get a shitload of things for FREE? I mean, Microsoft has a SHITLOAD of programmers, and they will all die out one day, and NO ONE will remember them, and no one will care about them, even if they have lots of money.

Same with even doctors and lawyers, etc... BUT, when you become President or Prime Minsiter, your name is in "the books" and now you name will live on FOREVER. If Chretien had not become PM, then NO ONE would know who he was or even care! If G.W. had not become president, he would only be remembered as the big W's son. Not to mention, don't Presidents and PM get free cars, free house, and a ton of other free shit?!

[Arnold_Is_God]

what is the answer behind 99.99% of questions......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................................
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.................................................. .......................................money

[Terinox]

Arnold, I like the way you think! That is SO true!

[SwoleDiesel662]

Ya Symatech, that's just crazy as all get out. I get in arguments with Liberal friends and conservative friends of mine, these guys are all about how their view is right & because they are right, the other side must be wrong. It's silly & illogical. Plus, people tend to follow what their parents believed (kinda like religion) which usually means they haven't done their own thinking.

[RayL]

It is amazing how not telling the entire story makes the greatest country in the world sound so terrible. The people of United States and its leaders do make mistakes and not all of the things mentioned on the list are mistakes. The United States always acts in a way to benefit the good of the world. Sometimes we even act in ways to benefit the world at the sacrifice of our own internal interests. This truly demonstrates our compassion for our fellow inhabitants of planet earth and a passion to make the world a better place. Situations do change with time and in hindsight I am sure that many decisions made by U.S. officials (elected and appointed) would be different if they had a crystal ball. I guess when you are the mightiest nation that ever existed (in every way, not just militarily) you are envied by others. As for those Americans who cannot see the greatness in their own country...what can i say. There are fools in every society.

[symatech]

*shakes head* just because many americans think that we are the best does not give us the right to control somebody elses country. Who the hell do we think we are overthrowing democratically elected presidents and replacing them with dictators who promise to benefit the united states?

how would you feel if tony blair secretly overthrew our government and set up a friendly dictator to England? 20 years later it turns out that that dictator has been killing americans. are you just going to say 'oh well tony thought it was best at the time...stupid americans cant see that we tried to do someting good' i seriously doubt that...your right about telling the entire story...your just telling the wrong part and that has been my point throughout this entire post.

[RayL]

I can see I have wasted my breath (finger energy at least) on my previous post. This thread sickens me.

[Jdawg50]

The example you set today may be the example you receive tomorrow"

Martin Savidge of CNN embedded with the 1st Marine battalion was talking with 4 young Marines near his foxhole this morning live on CNN. He had been telling the story of how well the Marines had been looking out for and taking care of him since the war started. He went on to tell about the many hardships the marines had endured since the war began and how they all look after one another.

He turned to the four and said he had cleared it with their commanders and they could use his video phone to call home. The 19 year old Marine next to him asked Martin if he would allow his platoon sergeant to use his call to call his pregnant wife back home whom he had not been able to talk to in three months. A stunned Savidge who was visibly moved by the request shook his head and the young Marine ran off to get the sergeant. Savidge recovered after a few seconds and turned back to the three young Marines still sitting with him and asked which one of them would like to call home first, the Marine closest to him responded with out a moments hesitation "Sir, if is all the same to you we would like to call the parents of a buddy of ours, Lance Cpl Brian Buesing of Cedar Key, Florida who was killed on 3-23-03 near Nasiriya to see how they are doing".

At that Martin Savidge totally broke down and was unable to speak. All he could get out before signing off was "where do they get young men like this"

[Jdawg50]

I just wanna say that after the events of today, There are a lot of people with egg on thier face. It was obvious that the Iraqi people were glad to see this evil government go, and George W was right in fighting this just war. Did any of you see the torture chambers were they held people that spoke out against Saddam? Did you here the stories about the Children jailed for up to 6 years for not joining the young Saddam clubs??
Today was a bit reminicent of Germany in WWII... What did we find once we got there? and sym sorry comparing Blair taking over the US and iraq is apples and oranges? The states and Brittan- Free countries, Iraq well they were ruled by a dictator... thanks to W. They are free.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/....ap/index.html

BASRA, Iraq (AP) -- Iraqis showed journalists a white stone jail where they claim Saddam Hussein's secret police for decades tortured inmates with beatings, mutilations, electric shocks and chemical baths.

The jail, known as the "White Lion," was charred and half-demolished Tuesday after two days of bombing by British forces fighting for control of Basra, Iraq's second-largest city.

People taken behind the jail's sandstone facade usually did not come out, residents said.

Hundreds of Iraqis came to see the now-empty jail, according to British press reports. Relatives of missing inmates checked fingerprinted files and lists of names found amid the fallen bricks.

"It was a place of evil," resident Hamed Fattil said.

Hamed told British reporters that Iraqi police locked him and his two brothers in a jail dungeon in 1991, and that he was freed after eight months but his brothers were still missing.

"They used to strap a leather cord around our head, hands and shoulders and hoist us two feet off the ground. Then they would beat us as we hung there," Hamed said.

"They did unthinkable things -- electrocution, immersion in a bath of chemicals and ripping off people's finger and toenails."

The jail basement was a warren of cells, chambers and cages where the ground was strewn with an insect-eaten gas mask and bottles, according to Associated Press Television News footage.


Hundreds of Iraqis came to see the charred building that locals say Saddam Hussein's secret police used as a jail.
For the cameras, two men re-enacted how jailers allegedly tortured prisoners.

One man, hands tied behind his back with a rope attached to a hook on the ceiling, bent over while another man pantomimed hitting him on the back and the face with his hands and a long, white rod.

One man shuddered while the other gave him a pretend electric shock.

Outside the jail, a man showed APTN his mangled ears.

Hamed took British reporters into a yard behind the jail into a set of white boxy cells, surrounded by red wire mesh with a low, wire roof.

He said some of the cells, which had red doors with large bolts, were used to hold women and children. He also said hundreds of men were kept in a single cell about the size of a living room, which had one rusted grate window.

Between the men's and women's cells was a long mesh cage. Hamed said here, jailers pressed prisoners against the mesh and squeezed hot irons against their backs or threw scalding water on them in front of other inmates.

[symatech]

jdawg...i realize that comparing blair to hitler was apples and oranges. I in no way meant to imply that Blair had any intentions of doing this. I meerly wanted to express the point. It would have been the same had I said the ruler of uzbekistan or syria had intentions. I was trying to present an anaology for us on how it would make us feel if the United States government was overthrown by some foreign country soley for the purpose of benefitting the foreign country.

Also, I am very glad to see the Iraqi people freed. It is awesome to say the least to see images of them celebrating in the streets. For that I AM gratefull. I dont think there is a member on this board who would say Sadam is not an evil man and needed to be removed. It would have been prudent IMHO for the United States to work with the UN on this. what does the future hold for Iraq? who is to say. perhaps the next leader will be worse than sadam....doubtfully so but only time will tell as has been expressed by numerous bros here.

RayL - Your opinion is valuble to this thread regardless of what you think you may have wasted. Like I said I am a firm believer in hearing all sides of an issue. If I wanted a thread with a bunch of 'yes men' replying I would never have posted. Just because you did not change my opinion in 1 post does not mean it was a waste of time. I have no illusions of changing any of the other bro's minds...yet I still post. do you see my point?

Jdawg again - I read your first post in an e-mail my mother sent me a while back...and it is truely amazing how our guys watch out for one another. Words cannot express the camraderie (sp) which is forged by war.

peace
symatech

[Jdawg50]

UN... if the Un had it its way Sadam would still be in power bro??? Comon, The US, Brittain and the Aussies are the ones to thank for this happening. If the UN had it its way we would be working on out 13 or 14th year of this dictatorship. and more "talks" the French were the ones worried about Oil, not us. They are afraid they were gonna loose 60 billion $'s SCrew them they should have very little to do with the rebuilding of this country... Beside I hate socailism anyway. Not much better than what was there before.. LOL!
You ask anyone in Iraq today and I bet they would be willing to take what they have now over what they had a day ago..
How about the ministry of info guy.. LOL. Can anyone say Saturday Night Live??? Now thats gonna be funny!

[jssmc]

I am just glad to see that it was a statue of Saddam being drug through the streets this time! If you guys remember, it was good Ol' Mr. Clinton who let young Americans get drug through the streets of Mogadishu and then tucked tail and ran. A lot of soldiers and people will never forgive him for that.
Even if the temporary gov't fails and the Iraqi people can't establish a successful democracy in Iraq at least they had the chance to do so. Under Saddam they had no rights and people had no say in politics so their situation now will inevitably be better than under that dictator.
It is true that America's past is not flawless. Many people got slaughtered after the American encouraged uprising of Iraqis and Kurds in the Gulf War. Even with all of these flaws and blemishes I still hold my head high and wave the flag with pride. No country is perfect! The bottom line is I have many friends fighting in Iraq as we speak and if need be I would fight and die for this country just as many have in my family before. I am a patriot of this country! God Bless the USA!

[SwoleDiesel662]

"It would have been prudent IMHO for the United States to work with the UN on this"

By this I hope you mean that the UN should have been more assertive, because the US tried to work with the UN, but they didn't want to back up the resolutions they made. They let Saddam kick out the inspectors in 1998, we should have went above the head of the UN then. There may have been less protesting then, with Clinton in office, however with the Democratic party all confused, I guess that would have been impossible. Plus, we found more in 10 days than the inspectors found in 10 years. I wonder how many people were tortured and killed in that 10 years.

It absolutely 100% looks like we have done the right thing at this point.

We definately should act in our interests in foreign affairs. At least until my life is over. We should make our friendships stronger and eliminate our enemies.

Should we have kept unfair sanctions on the Iraqi people and allow Saddam and his sons to torture and murder the people that he was keeping destitute?

Has anyone ever tried to reason with a completely illogical person? it's impossible. For people who say Bush failed diplomatically, what would you say to Saddam?

Bush: Get rid of your weapons
Saddam: I did
Bush: Prove it
Saddam: ok
Bush: You still haven't shown proof
Saddam: I don't need to
Bush: We're sending inspectors
Saddam: No
Bush: Yes
Saddam: OK, but they can't look where we keep our weapons.

etc, etc, etc...

[symatech]

What have we found in these 10 days? torture and horrible prisions were not secret. Shit why dont we invade turkey now they are worse than Iraq is when it comes to torture and horrible prisions. There are many countries with horrific practices which we havent done shit about so tell me why Iraq? This whole business about freeing the Iraqi people is crap IMO. Otherwise we'd be in 100 other countries right now doing the same thing.

No weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq. Thats just the way it is. That was Bush's precedent for invasion...freeing the Iraqi people was never mentioned until it started happening. There are millions of persecuted peoples all over the world! Is it only oil rich countries which get our help???? who is to say?

I still support our troops. But do you think anybody has told the injured ones that their glorious president has cut $28 billion in THEIR HEALTH CARE so he can have a fatter paycheck?

It was a glorious sight to witness the dragging of Sadam's statue through the streets. And while I did not approve of this war it is obvious that some good has come of it...for this it was not completely in vain. But where will it stop? Syria? Turkey? Iran? Saudi Arabia? North Korea? Once Bush elimates his 'axis of evil' whose next?

peace
symatech

[RayL]

I hope we take out the govts of all those countries you mentioned, not all of them by force. At least not for now anyway. Countries like Turkey and Saudi Arabia have been some help to us over the years, but it may be time to re-think our relationship with them as well. Of course, we can only do this with the help of other nations. Maybe the people if Iraq will go in with us. By the way, healthcare isn't the govt responsibility. This is supposed to be a democracy. What you probably want is a socialist form of govt. Unfortunately, if the leftists get their way, it won't be long now.

[SwoleDiesel662]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83821,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83449,00.html

[SwoleDiesel662]

there are some things they've found already. There are more also.

When Bush said that we'd treat those who harbor terrorists as terrorists themselves, everyone seemed to be ok with that. When he started to follow through with it, so many people protested. Hopefully this sends a message that we mean what we say, and if countries realize that we probably won't need to go to war with them. Saddam though we would follow the UN and not do anything. Perhaps with Frenchy Chirac in his pocket holding his veto trump card, he thought we would never do anything. The world knows that the UN does not.

[jssmc]

The UN is not even a world actor without the US. The USA funds the majority of the UN. As far as I am concerned if they want to sit around on their hands and not follow through on their resolutions, let France pick up the bill.
Jssmc

[Animal Cracker]

Invade Turkey...good idea! Oh, wait....we already have 3 airbases there...we could just divert and hit Istanbul and Ankara!

[symatech]

Originally posted by SwoleDiesel662
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83821,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83449,00.html

well the first link is no surprise. it says possible. The reason we are at war is because of possible wmd. this is nothing new

the second is no surprise either. Obviously if ali gassed the kurds back in 88 then they have chemical weapons.


and it isnt the lefties fault health care is in the shitter. And regardless it is the governments responsibility to provide this. You think health care should be completely privatised??? how would anybody afford it? The government is there for the people. Health care is one of many services the gov is supposed to provide. bush is the one who cut veterens health care and nobody here thinks bush is a lefty so....

peace

[SwoleDiesel662]

Ya, I don't think either is a surprise, what is surprising is that we've found more of this stuff than the inspectors found.

[symatech]

touche! - true they have found more than the inspectors have found. At least now we dont have to make a big deal about metal tubes. I hear the Iraqi army has left Kirkuk. hopefully this war will end soon.

Anybody here have any thoughts on the government which will be set up? Who do you think they will put in charge initially? and how do you think they will do this? I've been curious about this ever since the start of the war. Who ever it is I hope they do an honorable job running the country.

peace

[jssmc]

Most likely Ahmed Chalabi. There is some definite controversy surrounding him but he looks like a decent choice. He has a sense of Iraqi Nationalism while being a fan of America. He could be the one to bring together the Iraqi people. Who knows?
Jssmc