Some Fun Facts About America<====

[symatech]

I have been debating whether to post this thread for a long time now. Finally last night I decided I should, if for no other reason my intentions are to provide us all with little known tidbits of America's history. I still love my country, all I am trying to do is present all sides of an issue which most american's ignore. Some because they just dont know about these things -although i dont see how thats possible...history is essential knowledge- others because they conveniently choose to forget them. Well, I hope I dont receive too much flak for this as I am sure I may, but here you go. and i hope this doesnt get deleted...

1953 - The United States overthrows Prime Minister Mossadq of Iran
- U.S. installs Shah as dictator

1954 - The United States overthrows the DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED president Arbenz of Guatemala.
- 200,000 civilians killed

1963 - United States backs the assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.

1963-1975 - American military kills 4 MILLION people in Southeast Asia

Septembet 11, 1973 - The United States stages coup in Chile. The Democratically-Elected president Salvador Allende is assassinated.
- DICTATOR Augusto Pinochet is installed
- 5,000 Chileans murdered

1977 - United States backs military rulers of El Salvador
- 70,000 Slavadorans and 4 American nuns are killed.

1980's - United States TRAINS OSAMA BIN LADEN and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets.
- CIA gives them $3 billion (more than they give our schools)


1981 - The Reagan administration trains and funds 'contras.'
- 30,000 nicaraguans die

1982 - United States provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.

1983 - White house secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis.

1989 - CIA AGENT Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington.
- US invades Panama and removes Noriega
- 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties

1990 - Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from U.S.
1991 - US enters Iraq
- Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait

1998 - Clinton bombs 'Weapons factory' in Sudan
- Factory turns out to be making aspirin.

1991 Through the Present day - American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis.
-UN estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions

2000 through 2001 - US gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in 'Aid'

September 11, 2001 - Osama bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3,000 people.


just some things to consider....

[BigGreen]

Originally posted by symatech
and i hope this doesnt get deleted...

I sincerely hope that it does not, and if it were to become the case, I can say quite unequivocally, and with all of the utmost due respect to the job that the mods perform, that it would be the first (and likely only) time I would feel ashamed of being a member here, or more correctly, ashamed of the board's policies.

[iron4life79]

this is highly uncomfortable to read and even more so for the mind to process.......

where did you get this stuff from bro? some of it i've seen before, but i'd like to know where you got the rest.......

peace IFL79

[BigGreen]

Iron, you can find substantiation for these claims across much of the internet....the real task lies in finding reputable sources which back up these claims (sadly, such sources exist for each claim). Here is just one:
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1998...0917-chile.htm

Despite this, or perhaps rather, because of the it (in the sense that this is one of the very few civilizations in the history of mankind that allows, tolerated and at times even encourages such open and forthright critique of its government) I vigorously maintain that this is the greatest country on the face of the planet. It is indeed a testament to our citizens, particularly those of us participating in our civilization in the true sense of that word, that our country can still be rightfully considered such a desirable place to be even in the face of such atrocities.

[Red Ketchup]

Do remember though that the USA is not the only country with "dirty hands" when it comes to this stuff... all the major powers have their share of skeletons in their closets, most of which they'd rather forget.

From the UK to the former USSR and current Russian Federation, from China to France, all the "top 10" powers have had their hands meddling in the affairs of smaller countries trying to control them in one way or another, at one time or another.

Sometimes it comes out fine (look at the fall of communism where there was massive cooperation between the polish trade unions, the CIA and the Vatican)... other times things go seriously wrong and you get Saddams, Khaddafis and BinLadens.

I guess it's all part of the game. And thanks to democracy if we as a people disagree with our governments actions when they do stuff like that we can say so, in public and not fear reprisal, and even better, if enough people think the government was wrong, they can vote them out of office.

Red

[symatech]

I must say that those are excellent points from both Red and Big Green. We are truely lucky to live in a country where we can openly criticize our government without fear of retaliation. If I posted this and lived in Iraq i'd be dead by now.

These few -oh how to say this...- 'skeletons' in our closet are only the few that we know about. Im sure there are many more that we will never know -cassified for life-. But like Red said, every superpower has skeletons. It's is rather impossible not too. There are responsibilities that come with being a major power that prevent a country from -for lack of a better word- pleasing everybody.

There is a great documentary which briefly illustrates each point I have listed above. It is quite moving and I came this close to breaking down and crying when it was over. It compares/contrasts America and its high crime rate with other countries. Ever so carefully it defeats each opinion the 'experts' throw out as to why our country has so many deaths by guns each year. Every thing from "Satan to Marilyn Manson (sp)" I would not hesitate 1 second to recommend to everybody on this board to see Bowling For Columbine.

While I am aware of what the writer/producer/director said at his academy award winning speech (something to the nature of how he's against the war and bush....) but that has NOTHING to do with my opinion on his documentary. While it is also true i do not support the war or Bush I think he could have chosen a better acceptance speech. Maybe something like "Now that your eyes are opened, I hope you will all start THINKING about our lives and this country." you get my drift I'm sure. Anyways I think you should all check into this movie, it just may change your opinion on a few things in our country.

god bless america


peace

ps. I didnt just post somethings that I saw on a movie and claimed them as fact. I was fully aware of everything I posted before I saw the documentary. I want you all to understand I would never post something of this magnitude based on evidence from a 'movie' alone. All I used the movie for was putting them in chronological order (which would have been easy enough anyways) and briefly summing up the situations.

[symatech]

Originally posted by Red Ketchup
And thanks to democracy if we as a people disagree with our governments actions when they do stuff like that we can say so, in public and not fear reprisal, and even better, if enough people think the government was wrong, they can vote them out of office.

Red

not entirely true. Remember Bush lost the popular vote. That means that the Majority of Americans did not want Bush as president...yet there he is.

BTW in case any are interested i didnt vote for Bush or Gore or third party. Honestly I disliked all of the candidates and therefore did not vote on a president. I did vote on other issues however. Always will I exercise my right to vote as i feel it is my duty as an American. I have written many posts criticizing our gov. lately I just want everybody to know that it is my right to do so and by exercising that right I am fullfilling my duty as an american. I will always love this country...just know that

peace

[xxxl83]

Symatech,

Listen there are two sides to every story. Even though what you have posted maybe true, we were invovled with these situations for a reason. Granted we may have had our own adgendas' but that doesn't mean the world would have been a better place without our invovlment in these cases.

We are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
If we don't get invovled, when thing get really bad they'll say "where was the United States" and when we do get invoved we're the bad guys.

The bottom line is this throughout the history of the US we've got involved with many problems that weren't our own and the world is a better place because of it.


xxxl83

[symatech]

I disagree. I dont think that anybody would have said "Where was the United States" When things went awry in other countries. We are not responsible for anybody but us in the long run so it would be ludicrous to claim otherwise. That'd be like saying "Where was britain when 9-11 happened?"

What bothers me about some of these is this: We are in Iraq now to topple Sadam and install a democratic gov right? If we are such patriots of democracy why then did we overthrow SEVERAL democratic governments and install dictators??????? I dont think the world is a better place because we were in Vietnam, i dont think the world is a better place because we trained osama bin laden, and i dont think the world is a better place because we gave sadam weapons and now are trying to take them away!

The united States has done some wonderfull things for other nations. This is true, and you are right there are ALWAYS two sides to every story. The problem is that most americans only want to hear the side where we are the victims. Never the advesaries...

peace

[xxxl83]

I understand we're capable of being as dirty as any one. I'm not really a pro government type of guy, but I do believe we should do something about the situation in Iraq.

As for us being dirty though remember MOST of the countries who don't want us in Iraq don't want us there for fear of us discovering their skeletons.

I've said what I had to on this thread we could debate this for years but it won't do anyone any good. Like my great grandpappy used to say never discuss politics or religion.

xxxl83

[symatech]

good call bro. Politics and religion is a never ending debate. I get so worked up about it. Im not really that into politics or religion, neither one is terribly important in my life. But when they affect the lives of people I know and care about thats when the emotions come out.

peace

[Terinox]

BUMP

[RON]

Originally posted by symatech
, I hope I don't receive too much flak for this as I am sure I may, but here you go. and i hope this doesn't get deleted...

I hope you truly didn't worry about this getting deleted? The only reason that would happen is if the flaming got out of hand in here. I think most of us are mature enough to discuss this.

Most everyone knows that I support my country and my presidents (except for the damn liberal ones ) . However I agree that most of these did in fact happen. Yes we have made a few mistakes but we have helped far more countries than we hurt.

Where does most of the humanitarian aid in the world come from? When we dropped the H-bombs ( the fact that we dropped it is another debate) on Japan, who rebuilt Japan to be an even bigger tech power than we are. Who rebuilt Germany after the war? Who sent aid to starving in Somalia? Who stopped the genocide time and time again? When a natural disaster occur who do countries around the world turn to for aid? The US thats who!

[Chach]

WOW, excellent thread!!!!
Symatech--you have very good points........very good thread...BUMP

[symatech]

Originally posted by BigGreen

Despite this, or perhaps rather, because of the it (in the sense that this is one of the very few civilizations in the history of mankind that allows, tolerated and at times even encourages such open and forthright critique of its government) I vigorously maintain that this is the greatest country on the face of the planet. It is indeed a testament to our citizens, particularly those of us participating in our civilization in the true sense of that word, that our country can still be rightfully considered such a desirable place to be even in the face of such atrocities.

HERE HERE very well said bro

[Animal Cracker]

Sounds good to me! Always National interests first...deal with the problems later.

[Jdawg50]

The United States has permanent interests, not permanent allies. Keep that in mind when you read this. Yes we backed Stalin in WWII, he was the lesser of two evils at the time, just like we backed Sadam when he was fighting Iran in the 80's. So what? These things change, and so do our allies. We also fought against Japan in WWII and now the are an ally? what is your point?

[jeffylyte]

my two cents is this: i have no problem with the lesser of two evils idea. (ie Hitler vs Stalin). What pisses me off is the dishonesty to the american public in all this. why lie and cheat to overthrow communism (or some other evil) when you could just say that we need to do it and not make up reasons.

For example. In '91 we invaded Iraq for "invading Kuwait" a bunch of BS. The Iraqi ambassador asked us if what we would do and we told them nothing. not to mention that Kuwait was cross drilling into iraqi territory to steal oil. it was for political reasons not moral. and now we way he's evil cause he gassed kurds and iranians back inthe 80's. even though we provided intelligence knowing he would do so to iran and ruumsfeld flew to iraq the week after and shook saddams hand. if it was ok then its ok now. the action didn't change only the admin.

many of this list shows why the arabs dont trust the us'intentions. why would iran not work against us when we supported a dictator. why would the current shiites in southern iraq not trust us when we encouraged them to revolt and then hung them out to dry.

this is not to say we should go kick some ass, buut we should of finished it in 91 or in "84? back with the USS stark. If i were pres I would \'ve eliminated the country then.

[jeffylyte]

oh yeah some other tidbits:

during the cold war the U.S. government irradiated an entire town to see the effects of radiation of the health of the population. it was just research in case of nuclear attack. I guess too bad for the children who never knew hunh? or what about the black prisoners who were infected with syphilus and left untreated so we could get reserarch in case our servicemen got VD from hookers while deployed? THESE WERE US CITIZENS! makes me sick. And people ask me why I don't trust the government or anything a politician says. Just like my father in vietnam. listening to a radio broadcast of the president saying we have no warplanes flying missions while working on a 101 supersabre back from a bombing run.

This is not to imply that I am not a patriot. Its just that I have a vision of what are country could and should be, and also what we really are. The gap is too wide for my comfort. But thats why americans need to stand up for whats right and ethical and put the metal to the meat for our principles.

[Jdawg50]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by symatech
[B]
not entirely true. Remember Bush lost the popular vote. That means that the Majority of Americans did not want Bush as president...yet there he is.

Well, since we live in a constitutional republic your point is basically null, Remeber the electoral congress elects the president not the general population. When they wrote the U.S. constitution they had that in mind. So, just because he lost the popular vote means basically... well... NOTHING. If you have a problem with that work on getting a constitutional convention and then work on re-writing the constitution bro, otherwise forget this arguement because it really means nothing.

[symatech]

Ok let me rephrase. Lets say we had a president who we didnt want in office for whatever reason. next election we go to vote him out of office by voting for his opponent. With the electoral college he can still be voted into office even though americans tried hard to keep him out. your points are valid jdawg but mine are too. its a tricky system

[Jdawg50]

Here's my problem
Why are all of you left wing blame america first haters doing this? I know you all hate G. W. Bush, but what your doing is hurting the man and women on the military that are putting their lives on the line for all of us. The point is that this war has begun, and there really isnt anything we can do to stop it now(nor do I want it to stop until Sadam is gone!). Put down your anti-america sentiment and start supporting our troops. When I say support our troops I mean support thier mission. Because you cant support the troops without supporting the mission (Unless you hope they loose and die) If what you say when you say you support the troops is that you simpathize with them then say that. But dont say you support our troops.

Also, What the hell were you anti-america hating people doing on 9/11/2001? Havent you read about the al-quida fighting in Iraq against our guys? Ah, well I think that is enough of a reason to go in and take Sadam out. We are kicking his ass and we will continue until that evil dictator is gone. Sorry, but G W Bush is definatly the lesser evil between him and Sadam. Sadam= bad man!- Hello- Where were you people when Clinton bombed him after his deal with Monica???

Yea, we have made some mistakes in the past, but I'd rather live here than anywhere else the world. And compared to any other country in the world I think we have done a helllllll of a lot more good than evil in the world. I am proud to be an american. If your not, then pack your shit and get the fuck out.

I'm so tired of all these haters hating, you lost the election in 2000, get over it it was almost three years ago. deal with it.
ERRRRRRRRRR!

I have several friends heading over next week from the 4th infantry div. And the thing I hate most is seeing how pissed off those guys are when you idiots talk all this shit. Drop you signs and shut the fuck up!

[symatech]

your missing the point. I think the best way to support the troops is to bring them home. I know their families feel the same way. Also, I am not left-wing. I am non partisan. I vote on the issues which I feel are important not my pocketbook unlike most americans (not saying you just most...) If you havent read my previous posts I state clearly that I am very glad to live in this country. I know a mother who got arrested outside the white house for protesting. her son was killed in the towers on 9-11. Want to know why she was there? Because she said she remembers how she felt when she learned her son was dead and didnt want the mothers of our troops to feel the same way. Also the mothers of innocent iraqis that would die as well.

I agree we have done good things like Ive been saying. The reason I posted this was not because Im anti american or even anti bush. I posted this -in case you skipped the first paragraph- because I wanted to present all sides of an issue which most americans are not aware of.

9-11 happens and we say 'oh poor america we are always victims'
9-11 1973 - how come we arent saying oh the poor chileans??? why? becuse we did it to them. More chileans died from our actions on 9-11 than americans died on our 9-11. All i want is for americans to realize this.

Everything happens for a reason. Thats all im saying. I will not tolerate anybody calling me anti american or unpatriotic because my political agenda doesnt suite theirs.

So what if Im hurting GW BUSH. Nobody cared when they were hurting Clinton. How is this anydiffernt? Once again I am non partisan so dont even chalk that up to 'im just sore becaue the right wingers are running the country.'

Let me state another point (from my non-partisan point of view) the only reason we are in iraq is because the government is so far to the right. YOu think a democratic congress would have approved Bush's request to use military force if he wanted??? NO! the only reason is because they are republican and bush is republican. The same goes if it was a democrat trying to do the same thing.

ERRRRRRRRRR? Your goddam right

[Jdawg50]

As far as the lady in front of the white house... how do you think a million mom's would feel if a nuke was smuggled into NYC? I'm more worried about that, than anything, and that's why I'm glad our military and our honorable president is doing what they are doing.
I'm done with this tread,and I'm not missing your point, I just know you are wrong... which you are, and 75% of the population is with the president. Take that to the masses, and the people who didnt vote for Bush, because the majority is with him on this one bud.
Also as far as going to see bowling for Columbine... Dont go see that! Michael Moore will never see a dollar from me after the disgrace he made of himself at the Oscars... he should move back to Canada.
I hate to break it to you, but you are hating on our country. And like Michael Moore said at the oscars... Shame on you.

[symatech]

Jdawg....im speechless...i expected more from you.

Im wrong????? Who are you to tell me Im wrong. Iraq isnt the only country who could smuggle warheads into america. Right/wrong is relative i would expect you to know that. Sadam thinks we are wrong for being in his country. Does that make it so? Hitler thought he was doing his people a great service...and whats more...millions of germans believed they were right! Go back to WWII and tell them they are wrong and the majority would laugh at you then kill you...the majority doesnt decide whats right and wrong for fucks sake.

so you wont see the movie fine...why? because of what he said? thats just stupid...the real reason is that you are afraid of what you might begin to think. Your making heavy accusations without full knowledge -and without wanting to know- and thats immature. 75% of the population is not with bush. You know how they came up with that figure??? moreover do you really WANT to know? fuck it Ill tell you anyways....they said that since 75% isnt protesting they are automatically for bush. HAHAHAH can you believe that? I didnt protest for a long time but i was against the war...and there ARE others like me...i know them personally. you gonna tell me that you know 75% of the american population...

so your done with this thread thats fine. But NEVER say that I am wrong because I disagree with you. Everything the president does and says is not RIGHT because he's the president. I never said all you pro-war pro-bush supporters were wrong because I honored your opinions...and im not asking that you do the same for me I fucking demand it...i extened you the courtesy and you will extend it for me as well.

peace


ps. i still respect you bro, you are knowledgeable with AAS and thats what this site is about....but NEVER say something like that again..because its ignorant and Id hate to think of you as an ignorant person

[symatech]

furthermore...i do not want this thread to get locked or deleted because we get into a flame war. I am mature enough not to do that and I think you are too; regardless, i think that unless what we have to say to each other is of significance to the board we should keep our disagreements to PM.

thank you
symatech

[RON]

How can anyone, after the event of 9-11, say that we need to set back and watch as an Individual who has a deep desires to destroy America like Saddam continue to build weapons of mass destruction? How can we sit by as he trains his terrorist nation who have recently tried suicide attacks in Kuwait? Shall we just wait till he spreads Anthrax all over the East coast then enter into this action after a third or more of our population is wiped out. He already has a army of terror. Do we wait till he unleashes it onto us?

One more point. We tried to do it the diplomatic way. If any of you have kids you can relate to this. What happens when you tell your kids to do something every day and they say sure, only to do just the opposite. Then you have no punishment for it. Now what happens after 12 years of telling them this and them now telling you fuck off. Now after 12 years they have no respect for you authority. Just like Saddam has no respect for what he is told by the UN. After 12 freaking years if he was gonna stop he would have done it by now.

Jdawg50 props bro your a true patriot.

symatech no offense bro. I just strongly disagree and am sick of the anti American protesting going on with in our own countrie.

[RON]

FYI symatech. Most of the time just the flaming replies are deleted. Only if the immature a-holes get out of control and we can no longer keep up with them do we lock or delete the thread. I have seen none of those type of threads in a long time. but thats just me.

[Terinox]

Originally posted by Jdawg50
The United States has permanent interests, not permanent allies. Keep that in mind when you read this. Yes we backed Stalin in WWII, he was the lesser of two evils at the time, just like we backed Sadam when he was fighting Iran in the 80's. So what? These things change, and so do our allies. We also fought against Japan in WWII and now the are an ally? what is your point?

Saddam did not just "fight" with Iran though. He invaded Iran, he was the one who started it. And the U.S. supported him, and supplied him with plenty of weapons. But NOT just Saddam, they sold weapons secretly to Iran too. They just sat back and watched these two countries kill each other. They didn't go in and "stop" the war, because they had nothing to gain from it. What they DID gain from was selling weapons to BOTH countries and making some sweet cash.

Many many innocent people died in that long ass 8 year war. My family was still in the country at that time and thank God nothing happened to them. Almost everyday, they would hear the sirens and rush into the basement and hide. And pray that a bomb didn't hit the house! Not to mention during that war my mother was pregnant with ME! So you may understand why I might sometimes get pissed off/emotional at some of these decisions that the U.S. makes. Picture if you will a pregnant lady running into the basement while bombs and guns are exploding all around.

Not to mention that son of a bitch Saddam is a cheap ass mother! From what I heard, there was supposed to be a "neutral" day, I think it was during our Norooz (Iranian new years). There was a cease fire, so that people could celebrate or something like this. And althought he agreed to it, the fucker attacked anyways, while thousands of people were celebrating outdoors. Even the fucking Nazi's (i think) respected the cease fire during World War II (not sure about this, correct me if i'm wrong).

Anywho, just felt like unloading something here, haven't in a while
Thanks,
T.

[Terinox]

Also, that was not directed at anyone in particular, nor was it directed at you Jdawg.

It is obvious from what I wrote that I do not like Saddam at all, I of all people want him dead. However, like i've said many times, the way U.S. is going about it (personally) I think is wrong. They only do it for gaining something in return. A LOT of the things which symatech said are true, and he has a point, he is loyal and respects his country, I have no doubt about that, but he has a passion for the truth, and it is IMPORTANT for the truth to be told.

Just because some people don't like Bush, or the way the government is run, does not mean they don't have respect or that they don't like the country as a whole and the people who live in it!

[symatech]

Originally posted by RON
How can anyone, after the event of 9-11, say that we need to set back and watch as an Individual who has a deep desires to destroy America like Saddam continue to build weapons of mass destruction? How can we sit by as he trains his terrorist nation who have recently tried suicide attacks in Kuwait? Shall we just wait till he spreads Anthrax all over the East coast then enter into this action after a third or more of our population is wiped out. He already has a army of terror. Do we wait till he unleashes it onto us?


symatech no offense bro. I just strongly disagree and am sick of the anti American protesting going on with in our own countrie.

bro, no offense is taken. What you must understand is that it is not anti-american protests but rather anti-WAR and there is a difference.

I would like to bring another point to light. Why are we so affraid of Sadam using his weapons on us? Why not England, or australia? they are closer. I promise you he did not just pick us out of thin air because he thinks we are #1. If he is so content on hurting us there must be a reason for it. This I believe is the key point which is too often overlooked by too many people. Anti americanism didnt just happen one day. It happened for a reason. Whether that reason is valid in the eyes of americans is another story altogether...will you consider that?

Also, I think just because somebody supports the actions of a president does not make them true patriots. What if I supported Nixon during vietnam and watergate? Does that make me a true patriot? What if I supported the training of osama bin laden? does that make me a patriot. I believe that a patriotism comes in many forms; too often do people not see that.

Terinox - thank you for your support. it means a lot to me

peace
symatech

[symatech]

Originally posted by RON
FYI symatech. Most of the time just the flaming replies are deleted. Only if the immature a-holes get out of control and we can no longer keep up with them do we lock or delete the thread. I have seen none of those type of threads in a long time. but thats just me.

Thank you Ron. That is a relief for me to hear. I believe that we have a very mature and healthy discussion here; as well as in other threads. It is nice to see that while my opinions are not that with some of the mods they have respect and the maturity to leave open controversial threads.

So Thank you to the mods for allowing this and keeping open minds. Thats the reason AR is the only board I post at. Ive been at several others; most turn out to be just porn pictures with a few AAS topics on the side. The maturity level on this board is without comparison.

long live AR

[RON]

symatech When people wanna burn a flag the symbol of this great nation that is Anti American in my eyes.

Yes I agree that we created Saddam's hate toward us. However does that mean we should not protect ourselves against it now. Just as we ignored Bin Laden.

I called Jdog a patriot because of his blind support of our troops and obvious love of country. I know many do not support the war (almost 25% of the US ) However the troops don't need to think they are fighting for people who do not even support them. They need to see that people think of them as the hero's that they really are.

[Jdawg50]

K, maybe I'm not done.
Thanks Ron!
I sat up last night talking to an army Captin that leaves this week for door to door combat. I could just feel the fear, the pride, and the overall desire to free these opressed people. That was his biggest motivating factor... helping the Iraqi people. Symatech, Terinox, sorry its nothing personal.. you just need to understand how incredibly pasionate I am about this stuff. I do think your wrong and the "Shame on U post" was based on something your guy Michael Moore said.

[Jdawg50]

Originally posted by Terinox



Saddam did not just "fight" with Iran though. He invaded Iran, he was the one who started it. And the U.S. supported him, and supplied him with plenty of weapons. But NOT just Saddam, they sold weapons secretly to Iran too. They just sat back and watched these two countries kill each other. They didn't go in and "stop" the war, because they had nothing to gain from it. What they DID gain from was selling weapons to BOTH countries and making some sweet cash.

Many many innocent people died in that long ass 8 year war. My family was still in the country at that time and thank God nothing happened to them. Almost everyday, they would hear the sirens and rush into the basement and hide. And pray that a bomb didn't hit the house! Not to mention during that war my mother was pregnant with ME! So you may understand why I might sometimes get pissed off/emotional at some of these decisions that the U.S. makes. Picture if you will a pregnant lady running into the basement while bombs and guns are exploding all around.

Not to mention that son of a bitch Saddam is a cheap ass mother! From what I heard, there was supposed to be a "neutral" day, I think it was during our Norooz (Iranian new years). There was a cease fire, so that people could celebrate or something like this. And althought he agreed to it, the fucker attacked anyways, while thousands of people were celebrating outdoors. Even the fucking Nazi's (i think) respected the cease fire during World War II (not sure about this, correct me if i'm wrong).

Anywho, just felt like unloading something here, haven't in a while
Thanks,
T.

K, I see where your coming from bro, this seems to me to be even more of a reason to support what we are doing. Sadam is such an oppressive ruler.. killing hundreds of thousands of people. You have seen this first hand and know how miserable it really is. Yea the war sucks now, and the civil war,WWI, WWII, and revolutionary war sucked too, but things eventually changed for the better. Sometimes this is the only way to deal with things unfortunatly. The "Cant we all just get along policy" does not work, and talking it out is something worth trying, but eventually some things have to be done with force.

As far as us allying will Iraq during the time of the Iran/Iraq war... well remember Iran had taken a bunch of US civilians hostage, and that became the policy of the Carter admin. Again back to the point we have permanent interest not permanent allies. We fought with the French during the revolutionary war, and now their our well hmmmmmm Allies???? LOL


I feel better now. I got to sleep on my thoughts and now.... I can breath in..... and Breath out..... AHHHHHHHHH

Much love for the lefties on the board... but more love for my boys like RON! Love the flag bro

[jeffylyte]

I have to say I agree with symatech's point here. A patriot is not defined by blindly supporting the actions of a politician, but by love of the priniciples of which a country stands for and accepting teh duty of ones citizenship. That makes Symatech a patriot as well as anybody else (provided he would fight if asked). There are many, many people who fought in real wars where the casualty rate was 1 in 15 (not the 1 in 1500 of today) who disagree with this war, many of which were wounded or maimed. Who is any of us to say they are not a patriot? You can disagree which the action (or cause of the action) while still supporting people in the military.

If we all blindly supported what politicians wanted, then we would be no better than Germany under Hitler. Without popular, vocal opposition to Vietnam, we may still be there. Most nowadays think that it was an unjust battle. I think that a lot of this argument is academic, and not becuase we can't do any thing about it, but because if we (god forbid) were to lose 60,000 lives like in Vietnam (90,000 in todays population), everybody would have a much higher involvement in the pros and cons. Would it be worth it then? (not to be meant as favoring or disfavoring)

There really is not enough space to go into my thoughts of this war here, so I won't

[jeffylyte]

I want to make a correction here. Carter did not sell weapons to Iran. Reagan did. And not to release the Iranian embassy hostages (they were released already), but to release hostages in Beirut if I recall. And he did it illegally by circumventing the congress after they told him not too. It really baffles me that people think Ollie NOrth is a patriot (go to my previous argument. He did not uphhold his duty to the constitution of which officers pledge). Yes he was the fall guy, but he was involved in a felony. What if the person who sold satellite technology to the Chinese was the fall guy and got pardoned, would you think he was a patriot?

[symatech]

The hostages were released the day reagan took office. And it had nothing to do with reagan. They were released out of spite for Carter. This is no secret it is plain history. Carter tried for a long time to get the hostages out but nothing he could say or do (short of a failed rescue attempt) could free them.

Would I fight? This is something I have thought long and hard on. After much contemplation I concluded that I would. not because I believe in the president or his 'cause' but rather because if I skipped the draft, somebody would have to go in my place. And I could not live with myself knowing that somebody else might die because I wanted to live.

As for freeing the oppressed people...well they are oppressed thats no secret. But if freeing them is such a priority why didnt we do it when we were in the first Gulf War? Why dont we free all the nations living under war lords thumbs??? whose to say who gets our 'help' and who does not? Only countries where we have something to gain get our help? is that american? is that what bush has been preaching?

i think bush should take a tour of america...see the poverty levels, not just the rich neighborhoods. Why doesnt he go to my old high school and see the shit we used to call 'pads and cleats' his daughters went there for cryin out loud!!!! (yes i know both of them.) I frimly believe that education should be placed as our first priority...not defense spending...our military is large enough, nobody could topple us...so then why do we need a record number of fighter jets now???? for the iraqi air force????

peace

ps. i too feel much better having slept it on it

[SwoleDiesel662]

First of all, I am a libertarian & vote for every libertarian in every election, so obviously I didn't vote for Bush. That being said, I think Bush is doing the right thing, as our Governments' most important job is to protect us.

Here are a few of Saddams little known facts...

-Saddam destroyed 1400-1500 villages and killed up to 182,000 people in northern Iraq.

-4049 villages have been destroyed in northern Iraq since 1975.

-In Basra, civilians were tied to tanks to be used as human shields & tied to rocks & thrown into the Shatt al-arab waterway.

-In Karbala, doctors and nurses were executed, and patients were thrown from windows.

-There were mass executions of suspected rebels in stadiums.

-Saddam issued orders to use machine guns, grenade launchers and flame throwers against civilian demonstrators.

- Saddam tortures people lining them up single file and putting them through a wood chipper, sometimes head first, sometimes feet first.

-Individuals were subjected to beatings, electric shocks, burns, mock executions and sexual torture including rape (one source cites up to 1,000 reported cases of rape and many more may have gone unrecorded).

-Other methods of torture reported included cutting off ears and tongues, gouging of eyes and castration.

-Over 600 Kuwaiti nationals transferred to Iraq during the occupation have still not been accounted for.

-Saddam praised the terrorists who crashed airplanes into the twin towers and the pentagon. He callen them heroes.

-Saddam pays the families of Palistinian suicide bombers large sums of money for carrying out their deeds.


And people blame Bush for not being able to succussfully comunicate with this guy. You cannot rationalize with a completely irrational person.

Winston Churchill origionally wanted to order a preemptive strike against Adolf Hitler, obviously did not, and regretted it until his death. If we would have attacked Hitler before WWII, there would have been protesters everywhere citing unjustified attacks. I realize Saddam couldn't become the world power that Hitler eventually became, but with todays technologies (WMD), he certainly could inflict as many murders.

Saying that war is never the right thing is a sophomoric, visceral argument.

[Terinox]

SwoleDiesel, that is a good post, and you make good points. Those are most likely true, but we already know that Saddam is evil. We ALL want him out, we all want him dead, and we all want the regime changed. I THINK all we are saying though, is that some of the things the U.S. has done, has a whole government (and not just one person) are quite bad. And that they are doing somethings mostly to gain from it. Also, we are worried about the innocent people, both American AND Iraqi.