planning my equipoise and winstrol cycle.

[sfour_tay]

i know you can mix oils and inject them together. im a little nervious about shootingg 2 ccs as far as the break down and absorbtion of the oils.


i have read that most of the pain is due to oil being trapped.
i learned its good to use a heating pads and running the shot under hot water

i was only injecting 1.5 ccs and it was pretty tight a couple days after

[peachfuzz]

i beleive the test is 200mg
what do you think about runing the eq at 600mg per week for 19 weeks and runing the test at 400mg a week for 20 weeks ?

and winstrol for the last 5.7 weeks

thats fine. a little long without HCG in my opinion but not terrible. remember you have two weeks clearance time after last shot of test and you want the winny to be run through those two weeks up untill post cycle.


if i run it this long do i increase my chances of sides?

not really just makes recovery a little harder.

what are some of the comon sides that people see when using eq and or test ?

well test can produce about every side there is but under 500mg a week a doubt youll run into any problems. just have an AI and a SERM on hand.

thanks

im want to run ameridex just to be safe. whats an good dose. i ran it last cycle i think ed 1cc

.25mg ED or .5mg EOD

i know you can mix oils and inject them together. im a little nervious about shootingg 2 ccs as far as the break down and absorbtion of the oils.

the oils will break down and absorb fine. you should have no problem with 2cc in glutes or quads and with delts you can easily work your way to 2cc comfortably

i have read that most of the pain is due to oil being trapped.
i learned its good to use a heating pads and running the shot under hot water

i was only injecting 1.5 ccs and it was pretty tight a couple days after

there are some good stickies and educational threads on injection technique, reducing pain and so on. give them a look.

....

[sfour_tay]

.25mg ED or .5mg EOD



....

i have been looking for these stickies and threads and only really find some newbies complaining about pain.

are there any threads that you know of that you would be able ot direct me to

thanks
EC

[peachfuzz]

you da man!!

my last question is something ive been trying to research on my own but im still a little fuzzy.

im trying to understand more about hcg and other pct sups. i am confused as to how ot determine what sup is best to use for a certain cycle. i know some is personal prefrence but im just a little confused.

is ameridex a hcg ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_c...c_gonadotropin


Here is what I feel is an excellent write-up on HCG use. There are a million different protocols and some prefer other methods but this is what i believe to be the most effective.

Swale's HCG advice


Swale's HCG advice

by swale (MD / hrt specailist). originally posted at ************

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn't mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERMs at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a "bridge". Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't "fool" the body? it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other


JC: Dr. John has updated the original paper you published. Here it is:

My New HCG Protocol Paper
This paper is about to be published in The American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine 2004 Clinical Updates:

AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

By John Crisler, DO

In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.

Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its author, with copyright notice and 2. www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.

is it better to use dex right off the bat at .25mg ed or wait till you think your starting to see sides ?

again down to personal preference. if you are not prone to estrogenic side effects and your bodyfat is low then just employ if needed. if your a better safe then sorry kind of guy then the doses i listed can be ran throughout.

i have been reading like a mad man and im learning alot but im still confused as to how one would go about determining weather a certain pct chem would work better than an other for a certain type of gear.

Post cycle drugs dont change depending on what you run. IMO the traditional clomid/nolva combo should be the base of any post cycle. the addition of aromasin or HCG is again down to preference.

thank again for all the help. i ordered the steroid bible so it should be here soon and hopefully i will gain more from that.

ps has any one ever herd of some one running a winstrol cycle in the middle of there cycle instead of at the start or the end. just curious because my birth day is right in the middle of this thread and i know it sounds kinda dumb but i would love to look shreeded for the big day. just a stupid thought, feel free to shoot it down. i would rather do something right and be safe and effective than to do it to soon just for my ego.

thanks guys
EC

you can run it whenever you want but the two weeks after your last injection are hell from my experience. you feel like crap as test levels drop but you cant begin post cycle either.

i have been looking for these stickies and threads and only really find some newbies complaining about pain.

are there any threads that you know of that you would be able ot direct me to

thanks
EC

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=1272
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?p=4177202
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=358617