Most you have gained on a cycle?

[Steroidman99]

yea its exaggerated but im sure he's getting at, without training, gear is basically pointless, and then when you DO train, it comes down to diet and rest...the gear does make it happen in the end and depending on what gear your running you will get different looks (dry/wet) but at the end of the day you need to have the basics

but i mean a weight amount to me means nothing when talking about amount gained on a cycle. Id rather gain 3 pounds and loose 7% bf then gain 40 pounds and put on 10% bf

Don't be ridiculous, please. Steroids are the most important thing. More concretely, it is aromatizable steroids. There is no way you could gain as much muscle naturally as with aromatizable steroids (unless you perhaps run creatine for the first time.) Moreover, most of the "size gain" with aromatizable steroids consist of useless, non-functional water anyway. The growth of functional muscle (contractile proteins) is so slow even with steroids that spending a big amount of money on "good diet" is quite debatable. I have run only non-aromatizing or DHT-based steroids so far, and although my strength always exploded, size gains were minimal and additional calories and proteins only led to gaining fat around my waist. After all, when on steroids, you gain some muscle and strength even without training!

[dec11]

Don't be ridiculous, please. Steroids are the most important thing. More concretely, it is aromatizable steroids. There is no way you could gain as much muscle naturally as with aromatizable steroids (unless you perhaps run creatine for the first time.) Moreover, most of the "size gain" with aromatizable steroids consist of useless, non-functional water anyway. The growth of functional muscle (contractile proteins) is so slow even with steroids that spending a big amount of money on "good diet" is quite debatable. I have run only non-aromatizing or DHT-based steroids so far, and although my strength always exploded, size gains were minimal and additional calories and proteins only led to gaining fat around my waist. After all, when on steroids, you gain some muscle and strength even without training!

id like to see where these studies are from

[Steroidman99]

id like to see where these studies are from

There have been innumerable studies of this sort done both in animals and in humans (mostly in elderly people). You can find them on MEDLINE, after all. The physical capacity and the amount of lean body mass improves even without any physical loads, and even with steroid doses that would be considered pitiful by most bodybuilders.

Personally, I think that the importance of diet is exaggerated. Naturally, you must eat a lot of proteins and carbohydrates, not much fat, but the question is if the amount of protein that is usually recommended (as much as 3 g/kg body weight) is really used by the body.

Consider the amount of clean muscle you gain with Anavar or Winstrol - it is few pounds at best. Even if you gained 2 kg (4.4 lbs) of clean muscle after 6 weeks, this corresponds to 50 grams (0.12 lbs) of protein/day above your normal nutritional needs. Thus, in theory, roughly 150 grams of protein/day total should be entirely sufficient for a bodybuilder weighing 100 kg/220 lbs (=1.5 g/kg/day). Well, a bit more protein can be better, because some protein is degraded by training, but don't tell me, please that 2.5-3 g/kg/day will be somehow efficiently utilized!

Recently, there was a very interesting study that addressed this problem:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...m&ordinalpos=1
It turns out that at least in people, who don't take steroids, protein intake has a limited impact on anabolic effect. After you get over ca. 1.5 g protein/kg/day, there is no further increase of lean body mass. What is decesive, however, is the amount of calories (or carbohydrates, respectively) you take (probably because of the anabolic action of insulin, IGF-1 etc.). But it has its own drawbacks, of course, because you will become fatter. I suppose that when you take steroids, the additional anabolic effect of high carbohydrate diet is minimal, and it will bring you more fat than muscle.

[Bossman]

id like to see where these studies are from

Yeah, I would like to see some studies done at the levels of AAS we take. All the studies I've seen are on burn victims, HIV patients, elderly and the like. And they're not taking the levels of AAS we take. They do not have the demands of extreme training. They aren't taking advantage of the increased protein synthesis.

Im working with a competitive BBr now who takes in 1000 grams of carbs a day (clean), and over 600 grams of protein. He's currently in a bulk and making slow progress in the mid 250's at 5'9".

If you want to grow, you gotta eat like a champion.

I sat at a conference with Jay Cutler a couple months ago and someone asked how much protein he ate. He said minimum 70 grams, 10 times a day during his prep. Then the questioner said the body can only process 30 some odd grams of protein at a time. Jay said, we aren't normal.

[Steroidman99]

Yeah, I would like to see some studies done at the levels of AAS we take. All the studies I've seen are on burn victims, HIV patients, elderly and the like. And they're not taking the levels of AAS we take. They do not have the demands of extreme training. They aren't taking advantage of the increased protein synthesis.

Im working with a competitive BBr now who takes in 1000 grams of carbs a day (clean), and over 600 grams of protein. He's currently in a bulk and making slow progress in the mid 250's at 5'9".

If you want to grow, you gotta eat like a champion.

I sat at a conference with Jay Cutler a couple months ago and someone asked how much protein he ate. He said minimum 70 grams, 10 times a day during his prep. Then the questioner said the body can only process 30 some odd grams of protein at a time. Jay said, we aren't normal.

This easily explains all those abnormal kidney problems of those "abnormal" Jays.

[Bossman]

This easily explains all those abnormal kidney problems of those "abnormal" Jays.

Who's got abnormal kidney problems?

[GREGGYBOY2K7]

good point chuckt12345!!

[onewheel954]

id like to see where these studies are from

go to rxmusle.com, forums, chemical enhancement, check out the must read about testosterone shows an awesome study where individuals gained mass and strength at different degrees administrated 300 and 600mg a week. w/o working out they made big jumps in size, strength, etc... check it out, i thought u guys were know alls!!

[Bossman]

Don't be ridiculous, please. Steroids are the most important thing. More concretely, it is aromatizable steroids. There is no way you could gain as much muscle naturally as with aromatizable steroids (unless you perhaps run creatine for the first time.) Moreover, most of the "size gain" with aromatizable steroids consist of useless, non-functional water anyway. The growth of functional muscle (contractile proteins) is so slow even with steroids that spending a big amount of money on "good diet" is quite debatable. I have run only non-aromatizing or DHT-based steroids so far, and although my strength always exploded, size gains were minimal and additional calories and proteins only led to gaining fat around my waist. After all, when on steroids, you gain some muscle and strength even without training!

It's time to switch it up. Take an AI to keep bloat down and maybe you will put on some size.

Remember to eat big!

[AlphaMaleDawg]

Don't be ridiculous, please. Steroids are the most important thing. More concretely, it is aromatizable steroids. There is no way you could gain as much muscle naturally as with aromatizable steroids (unless you perhaps run creatine for the first time.) Moreover, most of the "size gain" with aromatizable steroids consist of useless, non-functional water anyway. The growth of functional muscle (contractile proteins) is so slow even with steroids that spending a big amount of money on "good diet" is quite debatable. I have run only non-aromatizing or DHT-based steroids so far, and although my strength always exploded, size gains were minimal and additional calories and proteins only led to gaining fat around my waist. After all, when on steroids, you gain some muscle and strength even without training!

completely agree with everything you said