Carcinogenic effects of Nolva and Clomid worrying me

[stevey_6t9]

Anyone read up on it, the genotoxity of these SERMS is a slight worry.

Anyone contemplated not running them for pct and just trying hCG and aromasin?

[richtries]

toremifene is meant to be far less toxic than nolva and just as effective . . . you can get it from ar-r (lion). This with a low dose of clomid (25mg/ed) is what I will be using after some in-depth research into the dark side of nolv/clom.

I also looked into the possibility of using raloxifene with clomid as this is supposed to have less adverse effects than either tamox/torem, but Swifto said it may be too weak at restoring hpta, although the no.1 for fighting gyno out of the SERMS.

[louiscypher]

Anyone read up on it, the genotoxity of these SERMS is a slight worry.

Anyone contemplated not running them for pct and just trying hCG and aromasin?

Bro when I read that link in BJJ's thread "the dark side" I immidiately stopped taking nolvadex. I have seriously considered other pct protocols. At least hcg doesn't cause cancer! And it does get your nuts running again. Torem is supposed to be less toxic, but I believe it has a similar chemical backbone to clomid and nolva. I think hcg on cycle and in pct along with an ai might be a good approach if you want to avoid cancer. JMO.

[n00bs]

Your not worried about caffeine... LOL..

[Swifto]

Yeah stop using Clomid and Tamoxifen (FDA approved and been studied for over 15-20 years) and start using bullshit herbs to raise endogenous testosterone.

Start using the author's of 'The Dark Side of SERMs' PCT. For a start the main ingredient i a f*cking anti-androgen, but thats not listed in his article, nor the write up is it?

Why would you stop using Tamoxifen or Clomid. Did you read the many references in that article.

Eric made the jump because Tamoxifen MAY cause cancer in the female endometrium, it would also cause cancer of the prostate. What the f*ck? How can you come to such a conclusion. Tamoxifen and Toremifene have showed promising posiitve effects in REDUCING cancer in prostate cells due to the ER-beta subtype Tamoxifen and Tore both increase expression.

He then states Tamoxifen will increase progesteorne receptor expression in male breast tissue, another foolish statement. He backs up the statement with 2-3 studies on WOMEN's ENDOMETRIUM (uterus). Which is a tissue sensitive to estrogen (agonist). How the f*ck does that translate to the male breast. Anwer: It doesnt. The actual data on healthy, male breasts shows a downregulation in estrogen and progesterone. NOT upregulation.

The many studies are also outdated. Clomid has been used on hypogondal mles showing NO adverse side effects in studies lasting YEARS.

Yeah, there are now better alternatives to Tamox and Clomid, such as, Tore and Rolax. But Tamox is still king of the ring when it comes to HPTA restoration.

Read the references, dont read a statement with a (3) next to it and take it as fact.

[Swifto]

You guys make me laugh saying, "I stopped it immediately".

You ever injected UGL AAS, not knowing where the hell its been made, what with, under what sterile conditions, but you'll inject it IM for 12 or so weeks?

What about AAS an various circulatory and heart problems, lipid values, liver enzymes, endogenous hormone's, thyroid function, kidney problem... Yeah. Fine to use AAS though for 12 or so weeks.

You know estrone (E1) and estradoil (E2), progesterone are listed carcinogens? But you'll quite happyily increase it using aromotasable compounds, right?

What about Oxymethelone (Anadrol)? I bet you'll take that for 4-6 weeks on a bulker. You know thats a carcinogen too?

http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/OX/oxymetholone.html

[gym_junki]

tore and rolax what are their medical names? thanks

[Swifto]

Fareston and Evista.

[stevey_6t9]

Yeah stop using Clomid and Tamoxifen (FDA approved and been studied for over 15-20 years) and start using bullshit herbs to raise endogenous testosterone.

Start using the author's of 'The Dark Side of SERMs' PCT. For a start the main ingredient i a f*cking anti-androgen, but thats not listed in his article, nor the write up is it?

Why would you stop using Tamoxifen or Clomid. Did you read the many references in that article.

Eric made the jump because Tamoxifen MAY cause cancer in the female endometrium, it would also cause cancer of the prostate. What the f*ck? How can you come to such a conclusion. Tamoxifen and Toremifene have showed promising posiitve effects in REDUCING cancer in prostate cells due to the ER-beta subtype Tamoxifen and Tore both increase expression.

He then states Tamoxifen will increase progesteorne receptor expression in male breast tissue, another foolish statement. He backs up the statement with 2-3 studies on WOMEN's ENDOMETRIUM (uterus). Which is a tissue sensitive to estrogen (agonist). How the f*ck does that translate to the male breast. Anwer: It doesnt. The actual data on healthy, male breasts shows a downregulation in estrogen and progesterone. NOT upregulation.

The many studies are also outdated. Clomid has been used on hypogondal mles showing NO adverse side effects in studies lasting YEARS.

Yeah, there are now better alternatives to Tamox and Clomid, such as, Tore and Rolax. But Tamox is still king of the ring when it comes to HPTA restoration.

Read the references, dont read a statement with a (3) next to it and take it as fact.

Just because something is "FDA" approved that it has a proven safety profile. The FDA has continually issued stronger health warnings for Tamoxifen over the years. For instance, in 1994 the FDA demanded that the Tamoxifen manufacturer Zeneca (an ICI sub-division), issue warning letters to health care practitioners about the increased risk of endometrial and gastro-intestinal cancers with Tamoxifen use.

----------------
liver cancer

It was soon discovered that the hepatotoxic effects from Tamoxifen stem from the metabolism and buildup of the a-hydroxytamoxifen and N-desmethyltamoxifen metabolites, which would only appear in an in vivo environment. Surely enough, the results from the original rat studies showing dramatic carcinogenic effects on the liver, soon correlated with human data when researchers found the same type of liver DNA adducts in Tamoxifen patients.

--------------------
Genotoxicity

It wasn't long before laboratory studies showed that Tamoxifen acted as a carcinogen. It has been found that Tamoxifen binds tightly and irreversibly to DNA, the genetic blueprint of a cell, causing a cancerous mutation to take place. Even Australia's conservative National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) warned that no amount of Tamoxifen is safe when it comes to carcinogenic effects.

[Noles12]

Yeah stop using Clomid and Tamoxifen (FDA approved and been studied for over 15-20 years) and start using bullshit herbs to raise endogenous testosterone.

Start using the author's of 'The Dark Side of SERMs' PCT. For a start the main ingredient i a f*cking anti-androgen, but thats not listed in his article, nor the write up is it?

Why would you stop using Tamoxifen or Clomid. Did you read the many references in that article.

Eric made the jump because Tamoxifen MAY cause cancer in the female endometrium, it would also cause cancer of the prostate. What the f*ck? How can you come to such a conclusion. Tamoxifen and Toremifene have showed promising posiitve effects in REDUCING cancer in prostate cells due to the ER-beta subtype Tamoxifen and Tore both increase expression.

He then states Tamoxifen will increase progesteorne receptor expression in male breast tissue, another foolish statement. He backs up the statement with 2-3 studies on WOMEN's ENDOMETRIUM (uterus). Which is a tissue sensitive to estrogen (agonist). How the f*ck does that translate to the male breast. Anwer: It doesnt. The actual data on healthy, male breasts shows a downregulation in estrogen and progesterone. NOT upregulation.

The many studies are also outdated. Clomid has been used on hypogondal mles showing NO adverse side effects in studies lasting YEARS.

Yeah, there are now better alternatives to Tamox and Clomid, such as, Tore and Rolax. But Tamox is still king of the ring when it comes to HPTA restoration.

Read the references, dont read a statement with a (3) next to it and take it as fact.

Im glad someone pointed out the fact that Nolva is used in female cancer patients

[Noles12]

Can anyone please tell me if they have ever heard of anyone that has gotten cancer from their PCT?

I personally have never heard of anyone coming around and saying "I ran serms for a PCT and it caused cancer"

[stevey_6t9]

Can anyone please tell me if they have ever heard of anyone that has gotten cancer from their PCT?

I personally have never heard of anyone coming around and saying "I ran serms for a PCT and it caused cancer"

some cancers develop slowly over time, yeah sure in your 20's and 30's the chances are slim but prolonged exposure over time adds up when your older.

and proving that the serms started the cancer is like trying to prove steroids killed an obese, inactive, smoker. Theres to many factors to consider.

[ghettoboyd]

You guys make me laugh saying, "I stopped it immediately".

You ever injected UGL AAS, not knowing where the hell its been made, what with, under what sterile conditions, but you'll inject it IM for 12 or so weeks?

What about AAS an various circulatory and heart problems, lipid values, liver enzymes, endogenous hormone's, thyroid function, kidney problem... Yeah. Fine to use AAS though for 12 or so weeks.

You know estrone (E1) and estradoil (E2), progesterone are listed carcinogens? But you'll quite happyily increase it using aromotasable compounds, right?

What about Oxymethelone (Anadrol)? I bet you'll take that for 4-6 weeks on a bulker. You know thats a carcinogen too?

http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/OX/oxymetholone.html

i just cant see how running serms a few weeks a year will cause cancer, it just seem like to short of time of exposure but im no scientist....once again swifto to the rescue with plenty of science to back up his points....nice job bro....

[Swifto]

Your not going to get cancer from PCT. Of course your not.

When wanting to consider things like this, total mg exposure is the important factor.

There are studies on women that have taken over 100g of Tamoxifen over a decade and they DO NOT have liver cancer or any other adverse side effects. Read that again, 100g over a decade. Its given to women to TREAT breast cancer and is still effective at doing so. For YEARS.

At most (6 weeks at 20mg/ED), thats 900mg. 2x year. Most user's PCT is 4 weeks though, thats 600mg.

If you dont want to use Tamoxifen I stongly suggest you look into Tore. Its less geno and occular toxic than both Tamox and Clomid.

It seems on some this article has worked. If you then wish to follow the author's advice, run some Sustain Alpha containing Resveratrol, which is a natural SERM, but also an anti-androgen. But I bet thats missed out of the write up for it.

[Swifto]

Just because something is "FDA" approved that it has a proven safety profile. The FDA has continually issued stronger health warnings for Tamoxifen over the years. For instance, in 1994 the FDA demanded that the Tamoxifen manufacturer Zeneca (an ICI sub-division), issue warning letters to health care practitioners about the increased risk of endometrial and gastro-intestinal cancers with Tamoxifen use.

----------------
liver cancer

It was soon discovered that the hepatotoxic effects from Tamoxifen stem from the metabolism and buildup of the a-hydroxytamoxifen and N-desmethyltamoxifen metabolites, which would only appear in an in vivo environment. Surely enough, the results from the original rat studies showing dramatic carcinogenic effects on the liver, soon correlated with human data when researchers found the same type of liver DNA adducts in Tamoxifen patients.

--------------------
Genotoxicity

It wasn't long before laboratory studies showed that Tamoxifen acted as a carcinogen. It has been found that Tamoxifen binds tightly and irreversibly to DNA, the genetic blueprint of a cell, causing a cancerous mutation to take place. Even Australia's conservative National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) warned that no amount of Tamoxifen is safe when it comes to carcinogenic effects.

A copy and paste from the article. I've read it and some of the references listed.

I'll ask you again,

Why do you run AAS and increase estrogen (E1, E2) when its also a potent carcinogen for the length of your cycle?

Have you used Anadrol?

If you want to stay away from carcinogen's, I'd stay the f*ck away from AAS.

Do you smoke of have you ever?

[terraj]

A copy and paste from the article. I've read it and some of the references listed.

I'll ask you again,

Why do you run AAS and increase estrogen (E1, E2) when its also a potent carcinogen for the length of your cycle?

Have you used Anadrol?

If you want to stay away from carcinogen's, I'd stay the f*ck away from AAS.

Do you smoke of have you ever?

Stevey....a 19 year old kid who is doing steriods, who is now worried about the health issues of PCT.... thats odd

[stevey_6t9]

A copy and paste from the article. I've read it and some of the references listed.

I'll ask you again,

Why do you run AAS and increase estrogen (E1, E2) when its also a potent carcinogen for the length of your cycle?

Have you used Anadrol?

If you want to stay away from carcinogen's, I'd stay the f*ck away from AAS.

Do you smoke of have you ever?

I know about the e2 being a carcinogen but it can be easily controlled on cycle.

Never tried drol, i know alot of aas are hepatotoxic but i dont know about genotoxic??

[stevey_6t9]

Stevey....a 19 year old kid who is doing steriods, who is now worried about the health issues of PCT.... thats odd

wow way to ruin an interesting thread...if u dont have anything constructive to say dont post anything you clown

[Swifto]

I know about the e2 being a carcinogen but it can be easily controlled on cycle.

Never tried drol, i know alot of aas are hepatotoxic but i dont know about genotoxic??

Not all the time it cant. Compunds such as Anadrol will interect with the ER even though it does not atomotase. There there is HCG directly increasing testicular E2.

Stevey....a 19 year old kid who is doing steriods, who is now worried about the health issues of PCT.... thats odd

Well there we are then.

wow way to ruin an interesting thread...if u dont have anything constructive to say dont post anything you clown

I dont think I have to explain the Rules to you stevey, or do I?

[Vitruvian-Man]

Stevey....a 19 year old kid who is doing steriods, who is now worried about the health issues of PCT.... thats odd

I was biting my tongue for the entire thread.

Thank you.

... I mean realistically Stevey give the AI/HCG pct a go if you'd like. My first cycle composed of an AI pct. You'll soon understand why people generally stick to the tried and true method though.

-VM

[stevey_6t9]

Not all the time it cant. Compunds such as Anadrol will interect with the ER even though it does not atomotase. There there is HCG directly increasing testicular E2.



Well there we are then.



I dont think I have to explain the Rules to you stevey, or do I?

Is E2 considered a carcinogen directly or only when it binds to certain ER on the body?

what about using another compound which will compete for the ER, could that work?

And you dont need to explain the rules i understand them, just that some people stick their opinions with no relevance to the given subject in an attempt of a sly insulting way.

[n00bs]

Everybody has cancer cells in their body, we shouldnt be worried about them occuring we dont want them develop and not be detected...

You plant seeds to cancer but unless you fertalise and water them then it doesnt grow..

You can not avoid carcionogens i think its funny how people worry about things like this then go drink 4 cans of coke zero.

There is no safe drug...

[Swifto]

Is E2 considered a carcinogen directly or only when it binds to certain ER on the body?

what about using another compound which will compete for the ER, could that work?

And you dont need to explain the rules i understand them, just that some people stick their opinions with no relevance to the given subject in an attempt of a sly insulting way.

Relevant or not, abide by them like everyone else.

Articles like this anoy me as Eric has alteroir motives.

Tamoxifen is the single most effective compound at raising endo. T post AAS administration. Mg for mg, nothing beats it.

[louiscypher]

Relevant or not, abide by them like everyone else.

Articles like this anoy me as Eric has alteroir motives.

Tamoxifen is the single most effective compound at raising endo. T post AAS administration. Mg for mg, nothing beats it.

With all due respect swifto I think you yourself are guilty of flying off the handle here and belittling people for simply voicing concerns that nolvadex and clomid have been found to be carcinigens. I think it shows a serious lack of control and respect. Go ahead flame me for making this statement, you will only show your lack of maturity. As for tamox and clomid's cancer risk being "dose dependent" goes I see your logic but some may feel its like smoking, one guy may smoke a pack a day and never have a problem while the guy who smokes a pack a week does. Why crucify people for being concerned about risks. I personally considered nolva/clomid as "vitamin like" when I read they were KNOWN carcinegens I stopped taking nolva yes, but can you blame me? I wanted to do some more research on these drugs. I must say the way you freaked on us did nothing to enlighten us on the pros and cons of these drugs. Peace.

[Noles12]

With all due respect swifto I think you yourself are guilty of flying off the handle here and belittling people for simply voicing concerns that nolvadex and clomid have been found to be carcinigens. I think it shows a serious lack of control and respect. Go ahead flame me for making this statement, you will only show your lack of maturity. As for tamox and clomid's cancer risk being "dose dependent" goes I see your logic but some may feel its like smoking, one guy may smoke a pack a day and never have a problem while the guy who smokes a pack a week does. Why crucify people for being concerned about risks. I personally considered nolva/clomid as "vitamin like" when I read they were KNOWN carcinegens I stopped taking nolva yes, but can you blame me? I wanted to do some more research on these drugs. I must say the way you freaked on us did nothing to enlighten us on the pros and cons of these drugs. Peace.

Well i feel like though it may have been confrontational that he acurately desribed the pros and cons.

He showed studies and gave information that was helpful in understanding. I just go back to the fact that women are giving Nolva when they have breast CANCER.

If you are too afraid of cancer risks from 4 weeks of these serms then you need to look at the world. Many things run the risk of cancer. Hell changing your own oil can be a risk of cancer. So can standing by the microwave.

Is it common? No. Can it happen? Yes Will you stop using the microwave because it could potentially give you cancer? I dont think so

[louiscypher]

Well i feel like though it may have been confrontational that he acurately desribed the pros and cons.

He showed studies and gave information that was helpful in understanding. I just go back to the fact that women are giving Nolva when they have breast CANCER.

If you are too afraid of cancer risks from 4 weeks of these serms then you need to look at the world. Many things run the risk of cancer. Hell changing your own oil can be a risk of cancer. So can standing by the microwave.

Is it common? No. Can it happen? Yes Will you stop using the microwave because it could potentially give you cancer? I dont think so

Point taken, I just feel he could have taken a more respectful approach than he did. Its like he was hostile toward us because we expressed concerns, and that we were hypocritical babies for trying to understand just how significant the risks of cancer were when using these drugs. Remember we were questioning the drugs not Swifto so why was there hostility? Peace.

[Swifto]

With all due respect swifto I think you yourself are guilty of flying off the handle here and belittling people for simply voicing concerns that nolvadex and clomid have been found to be carcinigens. I think it shows a serious lack of control and respect. Go ahead flame me for making this statement, you will only show your lack of maturity. As for tamox and clomid's cancer risk being "dose dependent" goes I see your logic but some may feel its like smoking, one guy may smoke a pack a day and never have a problem while the guy who smokes a pack a week does. Why crucify people for being concerned about risks. I personally considered nolva/clomid as "vitamin like" when I read they were KNOWN carcinegens I stopped taking nolva yes, but can you blame me? I wanted to do some more research on these drugs. I must say the way you freaked on us did nothing to enlighten us on the pros and cons of these drugs. Peace.

I'm not about to flame you. I've already stated thats against the Rules here.

Whether or not I waded in too hard or little, I didnt call other members "clowns".

You need to read my posts again. Because your statement of, "...on us did nothing to enlighten us on the pros and cons of these drugs." is completely wrong.

I've said that Tamoxifen is given to women to TREAT breast cancer, I've said its been studies for "10 years with no adverse side effects". That includes occular, retinal toxicity and liver issues. I stated estrogen is a carcinogen. I've said alot of informative things, if you decide to ignore that, so be it.

Point taken, I just feel he could have taken a more respectful approach than he did. Its like he was hostile toward us because we expressed concerns, and that we were hypocritical babies for trying to understand just how significant the risks of cancer were when using these drugs. Remember we were questioning the drugs not Swifto so why was there hostility? Peace.

I've stated more than once the author has alteroir motives. He sells a number of PCT meds (some of which I have tried) and this article is an attempt to scare the user. Yes, Tamoxifen is a carcinogen, but so are lots of other things.

We use it for 5-6 weeks, max, at around 20mg/ED.

If you dont want to use Tamox anymore, go ahead. You should buy a product containing Resveratrol then too.

In a head to head comparison comparing Tamox/Clomid and Tamox/Tore, Tamoxifen came out on top.

I'd strongly reconsider NOT using Tamoxifen for even a short peroid during PCT.

[louiscypher]

I'm not about to flame you. I've already stated thats against the Rules here.

Whether or not I waded in too hard or little, I didnt call other members "clowns".

You need to read my posts again. Because your statement of, "...on us did nothing to enlighten us on the pros and cons of these drugs." is completely wrong.

I've said that Tamoxifen is given to women to TREAT breast cancer, I've said its been studies for "10 years with no adverse side effects". That includes occular, retinal toxicity and liver issues. I stated estrogen is a carcinogen. I've said alot of informative things, if you decide to ignore that, so be it.

I've stated more than once the author has alteroir motives. He sells a number of PCT meds (some of which I have tried) and this article is an attempt to scare the user. Yes, Tamoxifen is a carcinogen, but so are lots of other things.

We use it for 5-6 weeks, max, at around 20mg/ED.

If you dont want to use Tamox anymore, go ahead. You should buy a product containing Resveratrol then too.

In a head to head comparison comparing Tamox/Clomid and Tamox/Tore, Tamoxifen came out on top.

I'd strongly reconsider NOT using Tamoxifen for even a short peroid during PCT.

Lol, well I just showed off my noob status. you remain the man Swifto, I was guilty of not reading your posts carefully. Thanks for the "enlightenment". Your points are good ones. Peace.

[stevey_6t9]

well regardless for future i wont use nolva, i will probably stick with tore/clomid... just my choice.

end of thread cheers guys.

[Swifto]

well regardless for future i wont use nolva, i will probably stick with tore/clomid... just my choice.

end of thread cheers guys.

If you use Tore, use it as 120mg/ED for the first 1-2 weeks, with Clomid 25-50mg/ED. I have had success with that protocol.

Always run the Tore at 120mg/ED for the first 2 weeks. At 60mg/ED, I didnt find it that effective when compared to Tamox.

But Tore/Clomid is a good PCT.