Ectomorph Cycle - When to Start

[McLargeHuge]

I'll keep this as short as I can, but need expert advice/opinion. There's a too long, didn't read version at the bottom for someone who is interested in the post, but not the reading part of it

I'm an ectomorph. About 2 years ago I was 5'11 and weighed 140 pounds on a good day. Probably 8% body fat. Got sick and tired of it, so I changed my diet and started working out.

Slowly but surely I've been gaining weight. My clean diet, coupled with the fact that I was getting older (relatively), and my metabolism was slowing some, I was able to gain mass. Got up to 170 pounds with a body fat of about 12%.

Now I've seen plenty of people that are 5'11, 170 pounds with a similar body fat and they look very cut. I think due to the nature of my body type, I just look skinny. However - it's been a definite improvement from what I used to look like.

For the past year, I've definitely begun to plateau, but have been religious about my diet. 6 meals a day, at least 1.5x my body weight in g of protein, a little more than that in carbs, and calories/day haven't dropped below 3,000 for months. Very clean diet. If I don't have time to cook, I'll get a grilled chicken from some restaurant and put my own toppings on it. No, it's not the best choice, but I work during the day and have class at night, so cooking dinner becomes difficult from time to time.

Anyways, bottom line is that I think my diet is nice and clean, it's just not getting me gains anymore. For the past 6 months or so, my calories are between 3,500 and 4,000, and my weight will just fluctuate between 170 and 160.

I do a split workout routine five days a week, and have been pretty carefully documenting my workouts for the past 2 years - low reps, very high weight. If I get past 8 reps, next time I do that workout, I'll raise the weight, etc. About every 8 months I have switched my workout routine to throw in a little muscle confusion (not sure if this actually helps everyone, but seems to help me).

I've done a considerable amount of research in AAS for a little over a year now. In my undergrad years in college I was a Biology major so I already knew what they were, and what they could do. I specifically started to look at which AAS I would take (if any) and their side effects, how to prevent those side effects, etc. A year ago I truthfully wasn't planning on taking steroids. I knew I was too small (about 155 then), and wouldn't have seen much in the way of gains. But the topic was interesting, and I thought that I could least keep tabs on developments and if I ever got to a point where I would run a cycle, I would have that experience under my belt.

Now to the question - when should I start a cycle? Trust me, I have read PLENTY of threads that talk about this topic. Almost all of them start with a young guy that is looking for a quick and easy way to get big, thinks steroids are the solution, and then gets educated by the others about how wrong he is. Most of those OP's are late teens/early 20's and about my size.

On the other hand, I've seen threads where a poster has talked about how successful their first cycle was - gaining 25-30 pounds, keeping about half of that and they started at my size.

The common message I have picked up from these threads is: people who are thinking about steroids should have three things in place:

1) A proper, CLEAN diet.
2) A solid workout routine that they never stray from.
3) Strong knowledge and research on what steroids they are interested in.

In addition to those three things, you should also be at an ideal age/body size. I think my age is pretty ideal (probably stopped producing a lot of testosterone now), but my body size is not.

So, does the fact that I have a good diet, good workout routine, good knowledge of the subject matter and a good age trump the fact that my size isn't ideal?

I should mention that I am not trying to get my body up to a bodybuilder size. I'm looking for a push that will get me over the hump I've been experiencing in lack of mass gain for the past 6 months. If I can gain 10 or 15 pounds of muscle and cut a little bit of my body fat (which inevitably comes when you eat like a hippo), then I will be very satisfied with my results.

If I do decide to roll with a cycle, it will be:

Week 1-4 Dbol - 30mg ED
Week 1-10 Test e - 500mg/week (250mg Monday, 250mg Thursday)
Wait 2-3 more weeks for Test e to flush out...
PCT Clomid: Week 12-16, 50/50/50/50
HCG on hand in case my testicles shrink

Pretty standard first cycle. I may take out the Dbol as well, but lots of stuff I've read says it pairs up really well with Test e as a first cycle.

Anyways, this got pretty long-winded, but what do you all think? Does my knowledge of the subject matter, along with my diet and workout routine make up for my lack in size?

Thanks for taking time to read it and give feedback. I'm not trying to start a flame war here, just wanted to lay it all out on the table and see what you guys think.
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The too long, didn't read version: Does a strong base with a good, clean diet, good workout routine, and ideal age for starting first cycle trump the fact that my current size does not fall into the "acceptable parameters"? (5'11, 165 pounds).

[bjpennnn]

Well congrats on trying to educate yourself, seems like you did a lot of homework and overall a good job. I know I sound like I am beating a dead horse because you have read it a million times probably but something has to be wrong with your diet. Just because you are getting that amount of cals maybe they are not the rite type. What are you macros. If you could give us an idea of the type of food you eat on a daily basis and your meals we could help you out a lot. I would even recommend copying and pasting this into the diet section with your diet and let the pros do their work down there for you. You seem like your up for advice you would prob learn a ton.

may sound random but do you take any type of medications that would be considered a stimulant of some type. Good luck.

[McLargeHuge]

This is what I had today. Most days are a variation of it:


Morning - 6 eggs, turkey sausage and applesauce

Mid-Morning - Greek yogurt, weight gainer shake (Russian Bear 5,000 - 1 scoop)

Lunch - Turkey sandwich with cheese on a multi-grain sandwich flat, another applesauce

Mid-Afternoon/Post-Workout (I workout in the middle of the day between work and class) - Protein shake mixed with 2% milk

Evening snack (during class) - Clif's Protein Bar

Dinner - Pasta, grilled chicken with spinach (or some other form of pasta)

Dinner 2 - Protein shake (same as post-workout shake)

For all curious, that totals to about 3600 calories, 90g of fat, 310g of protein and 320g of carbs each day.

My diet is semi-liquid based, which isn't ideal, but I've recently had some orthodontic work done and my teeth/gums are taking time to heal. Before the work, I supplemented a lot of my snacks with almonds, etc.
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And to answer your question, no I'm not on any sort of medication. I take a daily multi-vitamin and Fish Oil.

[bjpennnn]

How old are you

[vishus]

i think you need to start pushing the food and training, seriously.

all you kids say you "eat sooo much and train like crazy"....common, if youre 160lbs youre not putting forth any effort.

stay away from the gear and invest youre money in FOOD

[McLargeHuge]

I'm 25.

I never said I "eat sooo much and train like crazy" ... I stated what my current diet and current workout routine is. Looking at other threads, that diet and that workout routine mirror a lot of people that are on gear.

My question was - does the diet, the routine, and the proper research outweigh the fact that I'm not at a normal size to start? If it's no, then I'm fine with that. But I know there are several threads of people who started at a smaller size than me, had a good diet and a good schedule for the gym and kept their gains. Some of them could be reading this thread.

[blastedlooger]

Eat 5000 calories a day and lift heavier, especially leg day.

I was 170 my sophomore year in high school. I think anyone 5'11 should be able to hit 190-200 easily.

My guess is your strength hasn't increased at all for a while as well which means you need more cals. Don't worry about getting fat, that's the only way to add some serious mass when you are natural.

[Bigd89]

i think you need to start pushing the food and training, seriously.

all you kids say you "eat sooo much and train like crazy"....common, if youre 160lbs youre not putting forth any effort.

stay away from the gear and invest youre money in FOOD

Agreed.

[Bigd89]

Eat 5000 calories a day and lift heavier, especially leg day.

I was 170 my sophomore year in high school. I think anyone 5'11 should be able to hit 190-200 easily.

My guess is your strength hasn't increased at all for a while as well which means you need more cals. Don't worry about getting fat, that's the only way to add some serious mass when you are natural.

Wtf? Don't worry about getting fat? Just because your 18% bf and cycled doesn't mean its ok for this guy....or for anybody in that case

[Lemonada8]

Your pct is not good, you can't run clomid by itself. You can run nolva with some hcg which is a good pct for a test only cycle. If injections don't bother you I'd go with test prop cuz its effects are much more pronounced. You have a good grasp on diet and working out so cheers for u! try to eat more lol. Other than that u should do a log lol. Good luck and play safe

Nolva 40/40/20/20 week 12-16
Hcg 250ius 2x week 3-11
Hcg 2500 ius 1x week 12,13

[McLargeHuge]

Thanks for the advice. Yeah I should have said it's basically a toss-up between Nolva or Clomid for me, I have both written down. Heard good things about both, though I must have been reading some older forums when I did my Clomid research because everyone is saying Nolva does more with less sides. Plus it's lower dosage overall.

[blastedlooger]

Wtf? Don't worry about getting fat? Just because your 18% bf and cycled doesn't mean its ok for this guy....or for anybody in that case

Strong reading comprehension. I'm telling him to go natural you douche. That's how I got up to 202 naturally was to eat like a monster. If you are natural you have to bulk and cut and can't just barely go over maintenance if you want to make muscle gains at any serious rate. OP is scared to get fat so he won't make significant gains naturally. Some of y'all are also way too scared of gaining some fat on a cycle as well. Some of the best size gains I've seen have been people who got huge and a little fat on cycle and then cut later. If you want to put on clean mass OP do the cycle, but either way you need to eat way more. I have friends tell me all the time they can't gain weight and then I'm with them and they go long periods of time and they eat nothing. I eat more than my two roommates put together. If you aren't gaining any weight that means your burning all the protein you're consuming. Add in an olive oil orange juice bomb (youtube it) to add in like 1000 extra calories a day.

Also If you're doing the cycle, at your height I can see you easily getting 30 pounds. I started my test e cycle that is almost over at 188 and I'm almost at my goal of 215 (27 pounds). I've maintained the same bodyfat percentage. You should be able to maintain 12% and get up to almost 200 lbs, especially with the d-bol kick. Keep in mind, if you weren't gaining on that diet before though you won't gain much on it with steroids.

For PCT you shouldn't just do nolva and HCG. Clomid is more effective at saturating the pituitary than Nolva. Run HCG starting the second or third week of cycle and stop the hcg right as you start nolva and clomid pct.

Keep HCG in the fridge after you constitute it. Make sure you have slin pins for it also. The potency of mine seems to be waning at the end of my cycle after having it in the fridge so long so you might want to get two 5000 iu bottles if you can afford it. I definitely noticed a difference in testicle size though when I first started using it. (only 500 iu a week as well)

Also, you want to have some kind of aromatase inhibitor on hand in case of gyno. If you don't have an AI on hand though and experience gyno you'll have to run the nolva on cycle at a low dose. Nolva has an affinity for breast tissue so will block the estrogen from that area.

Good luck. If you have any questions PM me.