what kina carbs do u guys take after trainng?

[freak1]

so i should replace my waxy maize with oats basically than? and is is it same princple of double the amount of carbs vs protein for pwo???? so i would have 80 grams of oats with my 40 grams protein

[gbrice75]

so i should replace my waxy maize with oats basically than? and is is it same princple of double the amount of carbs vs protein for pwo???? so i would have 80 grams of oats with my 40 grams protein

If for no other reason, oats are cheaper than waxy maize, and I don't believe there's any additional benefit to taking WM. The simple carbs PWO theory is SOOOO beaten to death, and sooo 1990's...

Also, the 2:1 carbs to protein ratio is complete bs IMO. There's no magical equation. for instance, my PWO meal is 36g protein, 35g carbs. Simple.

[PK-V]

I don't really understand the point you're trying to make, not sure when you say "you" if you're talking to GB or everyone in general.

The point I am trying to make is that simple carbs appear to be a better alternative for post workout nutrition compared to complex carbs when the main goal is maximizing muscle growth. From my current understanding.

You never explained what simple sugars are able to achieve that complex carbohydrates cannot.

The classic action of insulin is the stimulation of protein synthesis, to trigger a maximized insulin response a high glycemic carbohydrate source is warranted.

Also, if strength training increases insulin sensitivity so much (based on the studies you quoted from 1998 and 1984 lol) then why do we need to further spike insulin post WO?

Because insulin's effects on protein degradation show a continual decrease in protein degradation in coloration to increasing levels of insulin(1)And LOL @ you for calling out studies based on their publish dates

PK - not sure what you're getting on about... half of what you posted sounds like you're debating me (no problem btw), the other half sounds like you're agreeing with me. I'm not sure you're understanding exactly what I was attempting to convey...??

It was put together in a rush
Debatable that is the question,
I am just putting forward info based on research which seems to support my theory
Not trying to have a go at anyone. I just want to learn more and I find this method to be more productive, if I am wrong I want to know so!




Leucine’s Effects and Interaction with Insulin and Muscle Growth
Journal of HYPERPLASIA Research 6(3):Published August 3, 2006 (1)

[gbrice75]

It was put together in a rush
Debatable that is the question,
I am just putting forward info based on research which seems to support my theory
Not trying to have a go at anyone. I just want to learn more and I find this method to be more productive, if I am wrong I want to know so!




Leucine’s Effects and Interaction with Insulin and Muscle Growth
Journal of HYPERPLASIA Research 6(3):Published August 3, 2006 (1)

Actually, you did make a great point - re: protein synthesis vs. glycogen replenishment PWO. However, since the whole 'short anabolic window' theory is shit (I think we can all agree on that at this point, right?) and studies show nutrient uptake and protein synthesis is actually HIGHER several hours PWO, it would stand to reason that complex carbs would be a better alternative since they'll be 'active' for much longer. Even delaying PWO nutrition, as many do by default by means of PWO cardio, could prove beneficial.

It hasn't hurt me, I can say that much.

I think at the end of the day, for people who do well with simple carbs, i'd recommend a 50/50 split - however i'd get my simple carbs from fruits. Nobody is going to convince me that consuming dextrose/maltodextrin purposely is a good idea.

[jimmyinkedup]

It was put together in a rush
Debatable that is the question,
I am just putting forward info based on research which seems to support my theory
Not trying to have a go at anyone. I just want to learn more and I find this method to be more productive, if I am wrong I want to know so!




Leucine’s Effects and Interaction with Insulin and Muscle Growth
Journal of HYPERPLASIA Research 6(3):Published August 3, 2006 (1)

If your thery is that the endegenous insulin spike caused by the ingestion of simple carbs causes enough of a dramatic increase in protein synthesis so as to cause a measurable difference in actual muscle built. Keeping in mind this effect is all accomplished in one pwo ingestion. Forgetting the general lack of prudence from a health and nutrition standpoint as far as ingesting simple sugar. Perhaps then you should run a log, switch your diet to all simple carbs - so you can supposedly increase that protein synthesis to a clinically significant level (ie translates to more muscle) all day and see how it works out comparitively speaking. What do you think?

[Sgt. Hartman]

Good point Jimmy. If extremely high insulin levels really do increase protein synthesis, and protein synthesis lasts for at least several hours after WO, then it seems we should all walk around all day with our insulin levels sky high.

IMO, this is a subjective issue that we can find research or studies to back up whatever our opinions are. Here is a study that shows that carbohydrates have no effect on protein synthesis when sufficient protein is consumed post WO:


Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis
René Koopman,1 Milou Beelen,1 Trent Stellingwerff,1 Bart Pennings,1 Wim H. M. Saris,2 Arie K. Kies,3 Harm Kuipers,1 and Luc J. C. van Loon1,2
Departments of 1Movement Sciences and 2Human Biology, Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht, Maastricht University, Maastricht; and 3DSM Food Specialties, R&D, Biochemistry and Nutrition Department, Delft, The Netherlands

Submitted 28 February 2007 ; accepted in final form 1 July 2007


ABSTRACT
The present study was designed to assess the impact of coingestion of various amounts of carbohydrate combined with an ample amount of protein intake on postexercise muscle protein synthesis rates. Ten healthy, fit men (20 ± 0.3 yr) were randomly assigned to three crossover experiments. After 60 min of resistance exercise, subjects consumed 0.3 g·kg–1·h–1 protein hydrolysate with 0, 0.15, or 0.6 g·kg–1·h–1 carbohydrate during a 6-h recovery period (PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO, respectively). Primed, continuous infusions with L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine, L-[ring-2H2]tyrosine, and [6,6-2H2]glucose were applied, and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole body protein turnover and glucose kinetics as well as protein fractional synthesis rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle over 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin responses were significantly greater in PRO + HCHO compared with PRO + LCHO and PRO (18.4 ± 2.9 vs. 3.7 ± 0.5 and 1.5 ± 0.2 U·6 h–1·l–1, respectively, P < 0.001). Plasma glucose rate of appearance (Ra) and disappearance (Rd) increased over time in PRO + HCHO and PRO + LCHO, but not in PRO. Plasma glucose Ra and Rd were substantially greater in PRO + HCHO vs. both PRO and PRO + LCHO (P < 0.01). Whole body protein breakdown, synthesis, and oxidation rates, as well as whole body protein balance, did not differ between experiments. Mixed muscle protein FSR did not differ between treatments and averaged 0.10 ± 0.01, 0.10 ± 0.01, and 0.11 ± 0.01%/h in the PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO experiments, respectively. In conclusion, coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested.


I'm not saying that I agree with it their conclusion, just that studies are fairly useless regarding this topic.

This isn't scientific at all but this is the way I think of it. The body will net virtually the same amount of total insulin whether 50g of carbs from dextrose are consumed or 50g of carbs from oats are consumed. The difference being that the insulin response from the dextrose will be very high but short-lived, while the insulin response from the oats will be a steady release over an extended period of time. If protein synthesis lasts for a minimum of several hours after WO, then why not have a constant flow of insulin to restore muscle glycogen and drive protein synthesis? The only advantage that dextrose or WM or Vitargo have over complex carbs IMO is that they start the process a little bit sooner than complex carbs, but I don't really see the point in spiking insulin levels in order to start a process that lasts at least several hours, a few minutes sooner.

[PK-V]

Jimmy just put the final nail in the coffin..... Show me the results!

I wish we could put the two head to head and find out the real answer, I think we are truly nitpicking at this stage with so many variables to take into consideration

Right now I can imagine Lee Priest eating his ice cream post workout and laughing at the though of all this anal nutrition analysis LOL

GB I completely agree with your preference with the use of natural sugars in the form of fruit over dex/malt any day of the week

I agree with the added benefits of using the complex carbohydrates in post workout nutrition in relation to body composition maintenance due to insulin control and of course the avoidance of simple sugars in the interest of general health

I can see the two sides of the coin a lot clear now

Hartman I get where your coming from, my way of comparing the two types of carbs would be similar to comparing a graph of a long acting testosterone ester to a shorter acting ester. The faster acting ester would show a faster peak concentration.

While the long acting ester would show a more gradual increase in total peak concentration. But we both know the end result of that in the steroid game. Zero noticeable difference.

Studies show one result another study contradicts the results of another followed by real life application showing neither of the two to be the actual reality

Thanks for the replies guys interesting stuff