how bad actually is clen for ur heart?

[jimmyinkedup]

Does someone want to tell me why Clen "is dangerous"?

Its actually cardioprotective in humans...

Thank you... a voice of reason....
There was a study posted years ago that showed it resulted in Cardiac Necrosis.
The "cardiac necrosis" contention was addressed by me in a thread not too long ago.
TBH t3 would be of much much greater concern to me .... fuksake b2 agonists are used to treat asthma on a regular basis- u think they seriusly (or at all?) damage the heart?

[dec11]

Thank you... a voice of reason....
There was a study posted years ago that showed it resulted in Cardiac Necrosis.
The "cardiac necrosis" contention was addressed by me in a thread not too long ago.
TBH t3 would be of much much greater concern to me .... fuksake b2 agonists are used to treat asthma on a regular basis- u think they seriusly (or at all?) damage the heart?

what was the dosage in the study mate? could be a big diff in the amount typically used by bb'ers and the study plus the fact that i know of people who used double the amount recommended on forums. so the danger factor can be irresponsible dosages.

[jimmyinkedup]

what was the dosage in the study mate? could be a big diff in the amount typically used by bb'ers and the study plus the fact that i know of people who used double the amount recommended on forums. so the danger factor can be irresponsible dosages.

Thed problem with that study (9which was done on rats) is that when you calculated the human equivalent dose it was astrnomical. Look im not saying clen is or isnt great- thats for the individual to determine - i am saying imo its not the dangerous compound many make it out to be. Thats all. Like i said if all else fails (which it doesnt) look to the fact that beta 2 agonists are extensively used and prescribed.

[Swifto]

Thed problem with that study (9which was done on rats) is that when you calculated the human equivalent dose it was astrnomical. Like impossible. Look im not saying clen is or isnt great- thats for the individual to determine - i am saying imo its not the dangerous compound many make it out to be. Thats all. Like i said if all else fails (which it doesnt) look to the fact that beta 2 agonists are extensively used and prescribed.

Because a lot of people (not you Dec) dont understand when you work out the equivalent dose on humans, thats have oroginally been tested on animals is worked out by surface area and not bodyweight, it changes a lot of things.

The doses on rodents still can not be translated to humans are show Clen to be considerably dangerous. Its not 100% safe.

But the doses translated are too high and also not taking into account dose sensitivity (as I've explained).

[Swifto]

maybe its dosage related? we can take alot of things which in higher doses can be dangerous or fatal

The doses vary given to chronic heart failure patients. Raging from 20mcg, right upto 720mcg/ED (tirated over 3 months).

Yes, you read that right.

720mcg/ED to a patient with chronic heart failure.

The dose has nothing to do with it.

This paper, titled "Clenbuterol increases lean muscle mass but not endurance in patients with chronic heart failure.

I'll quote, "Clenbuterol, a beta(2)-agonist with potent anabolic properties, has been shown to improve skeletal muscle function in healthy subjects, and in high doses, promotes cardiac recovery in patients with left ventricular assist devices. In a small, randomized controlled study, we investigated the effect of clenbuterol on skeletal muscle function, cardiac function, and exercise capacity in patients with chronic heart failure."

In another human study, they slowly titrated the dose by 20mcg/wk for three months reaching a maximum dose of "720mcg/ED". It was tirated to avoid dsensitisation.

"High-dose clenbuterol (a selective beta2-adrenergic agonist) has been proposed to promote myocardial recovery during left ventricular assist device (LVAD) support, but its effects on cardiac and skeletal muscle are largely unknown."

"CONCLUSIONS: Cardiac function did not improve in this cohort of LVAD patients treated with high-dose clenbuterol. However, clenbuterol therapy increased skeletal muscle mass and strength and prevented the expected decrease in myocyte size during LVAD support."

It raises ur heart rate, wich in turn raises ur BP which can lead 2 heart attack. And I read a study somewhere that sez Clen causes cell death in the heart, I'll c if I can find it & post it. BTW, I know if there's any1 in this forum that already knows wut I posted, it's u Swifto, sooo y do u ask 4 proof that Clen is dangerous? Not trying 2 argue, U hav my complete respect bro................just curious.

As if I'm going to get you to post something to contradict my views.

I'm asking you so I can point the holes in it.

I'm pretty sure you're going to post this study on rodents.

Thats extrapoliates to a dose of 100mcg in humans. However, who starts on a dose of 100mcg? No one does. The dose dose not matter, but the dose relevant to sensitivity. Therefore 100mcg in a starting dose, sounds dangerous. The dose is tirated to avoid this over days/weeks.

Anyway, the study above states that "the available information suggests that b2-AR stimulation is antiapoptotic and that it may even be beneficial to the failing heart." It's often missed, but the abstract says "...clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte beta 1-adrenoreceptor..." So it wasn't beta-2 agonism in the heart that caused apoptosis; that's actually protective. Rather, it was excessive beta-1 agonism from the local release of noradrenaline. And this is exactly what we see when excessive doses of clen are taken by humans. Side effects that are actually specific to the beta-1 receptor become apparent, including increased heart rate and blood pressure. Low doses of beta-2 agonists, however, don't do this.

Thank you... a voice of reason....
There was a study posted years ago that showed it resulted in Cardiac Necrosis.
The "cardiac necrosis" contention was addressed by me in a thread not too long ago.
TBH t3 would be of much much greater concern to me .... fuksake b2 agonists are used to treat asthma on a regular basis- u think they seriusly (or at all?) damage the heart?

Thanks.

Exactly. Its cardioprotctive, not the other way around.

Typical parotting.

[dec11]

The doses vary given to chronic heart failure patients. Raging from 20mcg, right upto 720mcg/ED (tirated over 3 months).

Yes, you read that right.

720mcg/ED to a patient with chronic heart failure.

The dose has nothing to do with it.

This paper, titled "Clenbuterol increases lean muscle mass but not endurance in patients with chronic heart failure.

I'll quote, "Clenbuterol, a beta(2)-agonist with potent anabolic properties, has been shown to improve skeletal muscle function in healthy subjects, and in high doses, promotes cardiac recovery in patients with left ventricular assist devices. In a small, randomized controlled study, we investigated the effect of clenbuterol on skeletal muscle function, cardiac function, and exercise capacity in patients with chronic heart failure."

In another human study, they slowly titrated the dose by 20mcg/wk for three months reaching a maximum dose of "720mcg/ED". It was tirated to avoid dsensitisation.

"High-dose clenbuterol (a selective beta2-adrenergic agonist) has been proposed to promote myocardial recovery during left ventricular assist device (LVAD) support, but its effects on cardiac and skeletal muscle are largely unknown."

"CONCLUSIONS: Cardiac function did not improve in this cohort of LVAD patients treated with high-dose clenbuterol. However, clenbuterol therapy increased skeletal muscle mass and strength and prevented the expected decrease in myocyte size during LVAD support."






As if I'm going to get you to post something to contradict my views.

I'm asking you so I can point the holes in it.

I'm pretty sure you're going to post this study on rodents.

Thats extrapoliates to a dose of 100mcg in humans. However, who starts on a dose of 100mcg? No one does. The dose dose not matter, but the dose relevant to sensitivity. Therefore 100mcg in a starting dose, sounds dangerous. The dose is tirated to avoid this over days/weeks.

Anyway, the study above states that "the available information suggests that b2-AR stimulation is antiapoptotic and that it may even be beneficial to the failing heart." It's often missed, but the abstract says "...clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte beta 1-adrenoreceptor..." So it wasn't beta-2 agonism in the heart that caused apoptosis; that's actually protective. Rather, it was excessive beta-1 agonism from the local release of noradrenaline. And this is exactly what we see when excessive doses of clen are taken by humans. Side effects that are actually specific to the beta-1 receptor become apparent, including increased heart rate and blood pressure. Low doses of beta-2 agonists, however, don't do this.




Thanks.

Exactly. Its cardioprotctive, not the other way around.

Typical parotting.

necessary?

in my experiences, clen is useless for losing BF. it increases heart rate which can lead to death in certain individuals, so why would anyone risk it?

a good diet and cardio wont = death. clen might

[Swifto]

necessary?

Its not just you. I see it all the time. It was more a general observation.

Your in no position to tell me what's "necessary" and what isnt with your track record anyway mate.

[dec11]

Its not just you. I see it all the time. It was more a general observation.

Your in no position to tell me what's "necessary" and what isnt with your track record anyway mate.

i think you'll find you've been banned before yourself

[Swifto]

necessary?

in my experiences, clen is useless for losing BF. it increases heart rate which can lead to death in certain individuals, so why would anyone risk it?

a good diet and cardio wont = death. clen might

It doesnt just help you lose weight.

Its anabolic in human skeletal muscle, prevents protein degradation, etc...

i think you'll find you've been banned before yourself

I was banned for constantly fighting with Anthony, so he had me banned. I returned when he was kicked by Brian. Same as Marcus.

With all due respect, you're one of the most unnecessary on this forum (at times, not lately). So dont tell me whats necessary and what isnt.

My point wasnt just aimed at you. Look at the other posts by members stating "its dangerous". I bet 99% of them havent seen a shred of data on Clen and taken someone elses opinion on it. Be it here, or elsewhere.

Its given to by doctors around the globe, to chronic heart failure patients and those with asthma, two very vulnerable groups to a compound that may cause further negaitve heart effects to its user's. Its not dangerous to the vast majority and data shows its cardioPROTECTIVE.

Myself and jimmyinkedup's are pretty switched on when it comes to data/studies.

But dont take our word for it, do your own research.

[dec11]

It doesnt just help you lose weight.

Its anabolic in human skeletal muscle, prevents protein degradation, etc...



I was banned for constantly fighting with Anthony, so he had me banned. I returned when he was kicked by Brian. Same as Marcus.

With all due respect, you're one of the most unnecessary on this forum (at times, not lately). So dont tell me whats necessary and what isnt.

My point wasnt just aimed at you. Look at the other posts by members stating "its dangerous". I bet 99% of them havent seen a shred of data on Clen and taken someone elses opinion on it. Be it here, or elsewhere.

Its given to by doctors around the globe, to chronic heart failure patients and those with asthma, two very vulnerable groups to a compound that may cause further negaitve heart effects to its user's. Its not dangerous to the vast majority and data shows its cardioPROTECTIVE.

Myself and jimmyinkedup's are pretty switched on when it comes to data/studies.

But dont take our word for it, do your own research.

with all 'due respect' you've no right to speak to me like that, and dont think for one second that i'll roll over and take it either