Made trip to see Dr. Crisler

[Swifto]

Keep in mind, he's only 23 years old and E2 dominate.

hCG ED
* More consistent and stable levels (more natural)
* Stimulate more natural Test production (if not Primary)
* Lower doses controls E2 and intratesticular E2
* Better ongoing sense of well being (increased libido)

I have always been a big proponent of smaller doses more frequently of both Test and hCG.

Hell, even taking an AI in everyday in smaller doses is better then once or twice a week in controlling E2 and stabilizing levels.

Problem is many folks just can't stick to that type of protocol so Doc's go weekly which seems to have a better efficacy rate.

Have you forgotten about leydig cell refraction post administration?

[steroid.com 1]

Have you forgotten about leydig cell refraction post administration?

He's Primary Hypogonadal and E2 dominant so I don't know how much this comes into play...if at all.

Crisler believes in hCG therapy for both Primary and Secondary.

Obviously, we understand hCG administration efficacy for Secondary but Primary???

Yes!

Here's why; Crisler believes that hCG acts wya more than just an LH analog as much as it acts as a powerful neurohormone. He claims (see below) Primary men really feel much better (increased libido, sense of well being...) when hCG is added into their protocol and it also may help rebalance the expression of other hormones as well.

Crisler: "It is my belief this may be a factor in the heightened sense of well-being my patients report throughout the week—far in excess of what a nominal dose of HCG would produce by virtue of induced testosterone production".

[Swifto]

He's Primary Hypogonadal and E2 dominant so I don't know how much this comes into play...if at all.

Crisler believes in hCG therapy for both Primary and Secondary.

Obviously, we understand hCG administration efficacy for Secondary but Primary???

Yes!

Here's why; Crisler believes that hCG acts wya more than just an LH analog as much as it acts as a powerful neurohormone. He claims (see below) Primary men really feel much better (increased libido, sense of well being...) when hCG is added into their protocol and it also may help rebalance the expression of other hormones as well.

Crisler: "It is my belief this may be a factor in the heightened sense of well-being my patients report throughout the week—far in excess of what a nominal dose of HCG would produce by virtue of induced testosterone production".

I dont see how E2 dominance changes leydig cell refraction.

He's primary, so he's probably lacking LH receptors in his testes, they're shot or some other possibilites. I guess it comes down to why his testes are failing and primary hypogonadism subjects may not experience the refraction. But they also wont respond to HCG very well.

I still wouldnt ever suggest it ED. Neither would Dr. Scally and this is an example of how they often disagree on subjects.

I'm not saying HCG shouldn't be used, I'm questioning the ED protocol. I know of its benifits to "well being".

[steroid.com 1]

I dont see how E2 dominance changes leydig cell refraction.

He's primary, so he's probably lacking LH receptors in his testes, they're shot or some other possibilites. I guess it comes down to why his testes are failing and primary hypogonadism subjects may not experience the refraction. But they also wont respond to HCG very well.

I still wouldnt ever suggest it ED. Neither would Dr. Scally and this is an example of how they often disagree on subjects.

I'm not saying HCG shouldn't be used, I'm questioning the ED protocol. I know of its benifits to "well being".

ED is fine it's just dose dependent; why wouldn't you suggest it Swifto?

I inject 250 iu hCG EOD...better would be 100 iu ED...smaller regular doses providing for smoother more even and regular levels and better mimics the bodys own rythm (well, best as we can LOL!).

But you are so right about the variability in Physicians protocols.

I guess it comes down to experience and how men feel.

I can say this; I feel much better on EOD as opposed to when it was just twice a week before injection to be honest.

[Swifto]

ED is fine it's just dose dependent; why wouldn't you suggest it Swifto?

I inject 250 iu hCG EOD...better would be 100 iu ED...smaller regular doses providing for smoother more even and regular levels and better mimics the bodys own rythm (well, best as we can LOL!).

But you are so right about the variability in Physicians protocols.

I guess it comes down to experience and how men feel.

I can say this; I feel much better on EOD as opposed to when it was just twice a week before injection to be honest.

The second peak in endogenous T is larger than the first hourly initial spike. Which is about 48hours after admin.

Then you have the refractory peroid of having to use MORE to get the same effect, so why not use smaller doses. I guess it comes down to effiiciency/cost. Who's to say the levels of estrogen will not also build over time, they will.

I'm not suggesting people use 1000ius every 4 days, but one can use an amount and take into account, spikes in T/E and the refractory peroid to limit sides.

If the goal is small spikes, then ED or EOD might actually be correct. Think about it. We get the hourly spike from injection 1. and admin another HCG dose, does that then decrease the second 48hr spike in T/E the first injection did? It might.

[jamotech]

The second peak in endogenous T is larger than the first hourly initial spike. Which is about 48hours after admin.

Then you have the refractory peroid of having to use MORE to get the same effect, so why not use smaller doses. I guess it comes down to effiiciency/cost. Who's to say the levels of estrogen will not also build over time, they will.

I'm not suggesting people use 1000ius every 4 days, but one can use an amount and take into account, spikes in T/E and the refractory peroid to limit sides.

If the goal is small spikes, then ED or EOD might actually be correct. Think about it. We get the hourly spike from injection 1. and admin another HCG dose, does that then decrease the second 48hr spike in T/E the first injection did? It might.

Very interesting, All my initial research was based on half life times of the drugs. Now im starting understand that there is more to it than just half life times. Leydig cell refraction and the two spikes with hcg is very interesting, had not run across it yet. Makes more sense now why some will recommend a longer frequency. Considering the two spikes, what frequency would be best?
I take HCG every 60 hours, maybe the 12 hour difference prevents interfering with the 48 hr spike.

[steroid.com 1]

Very interesting, All my initial research was based on half life times of the drugs. Now im starting understand that there is more to it than just half life times. Leydig cell refraction and the two spikes with hcg is very interesting, had not run across it yet. Makes more sense now why some will recommend a longer frequency. Considering the two spikes, what frequency would be best? I take HCG every 60 hours, maybe the 12 hour difference prevents interfering with the 48 hr spike.

Exactly!

Experts in the field follow a typical two and one day before Test injection with relatively higher doses, ie, 350 to 500 iu each.

That's a lot of hCG back to back.

But the ones prescribing this hCG protocol (Crisler, et al) are all pretty much doing the same thing.

So it begs the question; Why, given above?

Now we see Crisler going in to an ED basis for some strategic reason.

We can find out why; but when it comes to the "guys in the know" who are on the leading edge of this new speciality I tend to follow thier reasoning to a point.

Two and one day before injection didn't work for me; I could feel swings.

Moving to EOD at lower doses and huge night and day difference. I tend to lean towards lower doses more frequently for that reason.

Talk all you want about refractory periods, I know what worked for me and my BW is damn Skippy to prove it.

This is an art...and not a science.

[Ibreakspawns]

I dont see how E2 dominance changes leydig cell refraction.

He's primary, so he's probably lacking LH receptors in his testes, they're shot or some other possibilites. I guess it comes down to why his testes are failing and primary hypogonadism subjects may not experience the refraction. But they also wont respond to HCG very well.

I still wouldnt ever suggest it ED. Neither would Dr. Scally and this is an example of how they often disagree on subjects.

I'm not saying HCG shouldn't be used, I'm questioning the ED protocol. I know of its benifits to "well being".

@SwiftoIf it helps any, my first endo said that my testicles were under-developed for my age.

@Bill Boy, to be honest, we drove 800 miles in one day, and never did stop. lol. We ate at Bob Evans in Indiana.

@Bass. Thanks sir! Keep us updated on how you're doing. Gdevine knows his shit