let's settle the HCG debate

[Sgt. Hartman]

There are no studies that show HCG will desensitize the cells in the testies even in large doses. I know of a guy who took 10,000iu every WEEK for an entire year and he upped his T level's from 300 to 1400 on HCG alone. After he stopped HCG he went back to baseline (300) and then when he started again his T wen't back up. He is going on 4 years with this. He is not the only one who has taken semi large doses like this. So I would tend to stick w/ real world result's. So we can put desensitation to bed.

As far as delivery; HCG has half-life of 36 hour's so dosing IMO should be every 3-4 day's and you will be fine. 300iu every 3-4 day's during cycle and 1500iu or more during PCT.

HCG will aromotise so if you are taking more than 1200iu per week you should use an AI.

^^Bro science at its finest. I'm no expert on HCG but it took less than 30 seconds to find this:


Testicular responsiveness to chronic human chorionic gonadotropin administration in hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.
D'Agata R, Vicari E, Aliffi A, Maugeri G, Mongioì A, Gulizia S.
Abstract
Steroidogenic responsiveness to long term hCG administration (1500 U three times a week for 23 months) was characterized in 8 males with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH). During hCG treatment, testosterone (T), which was in the prepuberal range under basal conditions, rose considerably to the upper end of the normal range and remained at that level during the 23 months of observation. A 2.5-fold increase was observed in serum levels of 17 beta-estradiol (E2) an increment less than seen with T. The increment in 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone was also lower than that in T throughout the study; thus, the 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone to T ratio, despite continuous hCG administration, remained low. Serum androstenedione was slightly increased during hCG therapy. No significant changes were observed in serum levels of dehydroepiandrosterone. These data indicate that continuous long term hCG administration stimulated T levels in HH, with a relatively small change in E2. The kinetics of the T and E2 responses to 2000 U hCG, evaluated after 23 months of therapy, indicated that the testicular response was markedly reduced. No increment in T levels was observed at 24 h; the maximal response occurred at 48 h. This pattern of T response supports the idea that partial testicular desensitization occurs in HH patients receiving chronic treatment with hCG.

I don't understand why it would be more beneficial to run larger doses at the end of cycle in order to get the desired effect of restarting the testes or shocking them when the same can be achieved with moderate/small doses throughout cycle.

[Swifto]

^^Bro science at its finest. I'm no expert on HCG but it took less than 30 seconds to find this:


Testicular responsiveness to chronic human chorionic gonadotropin administration in hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.
D'Agata R, Vicari E, Aliffi A, Maugeri G, Mongioì A, Gulizia S.
Abstract
Steroidogenic responsiveness to long term hCG administration (1500 U three times a week for 23 months) was characterized in 8 males with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH). During hCG treatment, testosterone (T), which was in the prepuberal range under basal conditions, rose considerably to the upper end of the normal range and remained at that level during the 23 months of observation. A 2.5-fold increase was observed in serum levels of 17 beta-estradiol (E2) an increment less than seen with T. The increment in 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone was also lower than that in T throughout the study; thus, the 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone to T ratio, despite continuous hCG administration, remained low. Serum androstenedione was slightly increased during hCG therapy. No significant changes were observed in serum levels of dehydroepiandrosterone. These data indicate that continuous long term hCG administration stimulated T levels in HH, with a relatively small change in E2. The kinetics of the T and E2 responses to 2000 U hCG, evaluated after 23 months of therapy, indicated that the testicular response was markedly reduced. No increment in T levels was observed at 24 h; the maximal response occurred at 48 h. This pattern of T response supports the idea that partial testicular desensitization occurs in HH patients receiving chronic treatment with hCG.

I don't understand why it would be more beneficial to run larger doses at the end of cycle in order to get the desired effect of restarting the testes or shocking them when the same can be achieved with moderate/small doses throughout cycle.

Larger doses cause desensitisation. I have also seen studies at 5000ius in a single shot causing the same desensitisation.

Who the heck uses "2000ius 3x week for 23 months" with no break?

This study is also done on HH subjects, not hypogondal due to androgen administration, this could further change the outcome.

[Sgt. Hartman]

Larger doses cause desensitisation. I have also seen studies at 5000ius in a single shot causing the same desensitisation.

Who the heck uses "2000ius 3x week for 23 months" with no break?

This study is also done on HH subjects, not hypogondal due to androgen administration, this could further change the outcome.

Yeah I know the study isn't necessarily applicable to those trying to recover in PCT but I just posted it in response to the post above mine - "There are no studies that show HCG will desensitize the cells in the testies even in large doses".

[Brohim]

You don't administer HCG 3x a week you will only increase e2 by doing this. You take it every 3-4 day's. If you take more than 1200iu per week you need an AI to control E2.

You also dose more HCG at the end of the cycle once the test is clearning your body. You do this to jumpstart your testicles. There was a study that a small amount (300iu x 2 a week) was sufficent to keep testicles from atrophy. There is no point to administer large doses during cycle because you are supressing LH by injecting test!

The reason for the higher doses right before SERMS (Clomid/Nolva) is because you want your jumpstart your testicles now that the artifical androgen's are clearing the body. Then you use clomid and nolva to re-start the pititary to produce natural LH and you need the testes online to respond. HCG helps tremendously with this. Remember, if you did no PCT it could take a year or longer (dpending on adrogen and dose used) for your balls to "wake up". So this the most important aspect of a good PCT.

[Brohim]

Let's be sensable here. No one for our purposes (PCT) is going to take 5,000iu in one shot. And there aren't going to do this for 22 month's! IMO a proper PCT is to include a high enough dose for the testicles to respond. Data suggest 1500iu every 3rd day or up to 2500iu E3d for short periods of time will not cause denensitation.