Another gains being kept debate.

[tapout417]

I think all the people you mentioned about losing all their gains are the guys making ridiculous amounts of gains, like the people who say damn I gained 25lbs off my cycle or 30lbs, I'm not a vet by any means or and only know what I've experienced or read, but I do remember reading that if you can keep 5lbs of solid muscle after a cycle your doing good, steroids aren't magic although most people think they are, diet diet diet, you can take all aas in the world and lift daily, but if your diet is off point your just ****ing up your body for no reason, just my 2 cents

[The Bear 79]

My experience is also the same as Bossman - but than what do I know. You guys seem to have so much more experience than me,
Maybe he is talking about how a competitive bodybuilder looks as compared to when he comes off the juice. You know how they do not look anything like they did when they were on.
Having said that 60-70% gain keeping is huge, how many cycles a year do you use ?

I've done 3 cycles over the coarse of 5 or 6 yrs.

[pheenyx1]

The human body is an efficient machine. I t will only keep as much muscle as it needs, and it provides itself w/ the tools it requires to build that muscle. When we cycle, we are supplementing those tools, either with more of what it already has, or with better than it already has, so it can build more muscle. Regardless, it will only build as nmuch as it thinks it needs, which is why we workout. Once we go off cycle, if we continue to require it to need the same amount of muscle by continueing to workout just as hard, along with eating the necessary food to maintain all that lean mass, suppress catabolic compounds like cortisol, and take care of our HTPA, my feeling is that we will keep the vast majority of our gains.On the other hand, this is real life, and most of us have jobs, relationships, and other things going on. We put in maximum effort when on (partly due to the psychological effects of AAS like aggression) and our focus on this aspect of our lives can fluctuate somewhat. Personally, leading up to Christmas, I missed a couple of workouts, and my diet got a little loose. I have finnished 3 cycles, and I lost about 15%-20% of my gains between the first 2. On my third now, and I intend to cut pretty seriously going into my 4th, so I expect to loose more this time. Bottom line, AAS helps us build it, but our bodies will only keep it if we continue to make it think it needs it and EAT RIGHT! We get back what we put in. AAS are not a magic pill that will make you look like Arnold. I am up at 6 am 5 days a week to go to the gym, then work at a bar 65 hrs a week. Some people say "oh, he does steroids, that's why he looks like that." Those peoples scrawny, flabby, weak asses are in bed while I am trudging through the snow and rain in the dark before dawn to go workout.

[bjpennnn]

it comes down to this...

you are only as big as your dose once you travel to the dark side. Its all about hormone manipulation. The guys you are talking about that have been cruising for a year are failing because they probably do not have any knowledge on what they hell they are doing or about a proper diet. i tried time on time off pct and i maxed out at a certain weight. ya i could get bigger but the proportion to fat was greater then muscle for me at a certain point. so now i am cruising best decision i have ever made in my life. no pct bs, i feel strong and amazing even at a dose of 200mg of test c a week. I am able to pretty much keep all my gains with that dose and some other supplements. i once thought that cruising was so bad for you...and it is if you are stupid about it, but if you get blood work done every three months, give blood, take the rite supps, and live a healthy lifestyle i feel that it is not as bad as people make it out to be.

for me heavy steroid use in my teens and massive amounts of recreational drug use resulted in me having low test lvls. it was just not possible for me to keep the majority of my gains after pct.

bottom line, think long and hard about what you really want out of this lifestyle. if you are an average gym rat just trying to look respectable, there is no need to go on heavy dosages for long amount of times. my recommendations for anyone who is running cycles and then pct is to prime then hit 6-8 week cycles max. your in and out fast and your not shutdown for a long time.

TIME WILL TAKE IT ALL BACK, so dont go overboard and disregard your health. there is more to life then being huge.

[MR-FQ320]

Wowsers, the OP really tugged on some heart strings here, thread turned into a decent read with a pretty clear message

[Spears88]

I started aas use at 21 of low test levels I was at 215ish lbs now I'm 23 248lbs I stay close to 240 off cycle

But like everyone else is saying a good diet and lifting goes a long way

Plus someone said they take time off for a few months from the gym I don't see how they can do that I throw fits bad if I don't have a gym close to where I take vacation

[Whoady]

I started aas use at 21 of low test levels I was at 215ish lbs now I'm 23 248lbs I stay close to 240 off cycle

But like everyone else is saying a good diet and lifting goes a long way

Plus someone said they take time off for a few months from the gym I don't see how they can do that I throw fits bad if I don't have a gym close to where I take vacation

What's your bf% off cycle?

[Spears88]

10-12% bf all depends for me

[gixxerboy1]

i think alot of it depends on your size and genetics. Last year i didnt work out or eat right for year. I was even off my trt. I lost size and gained some bf. But i didnt get as small as before i started. But i also started 12 years ago. That may play a part also

[jamesz123]

I've done 3 cycles over the coarse of 5 or 6 yrs.

Wow that is almost nothing (so to speak). You must have done them right if you kept most of the gains. So how long were the cycles - the usual 8-12 weeks or the 6 month cycle lol.

[The Bear 79]

Wow that is almost nothing (so to speak). You must have done them right if you kept most of the gains. So how long were the cycles - the usual 8-12 weeks or the 6 month cycle lol.

10 wks.

[RA]

blaze...didnt read your entire post because my ADD kicked in and maybe you addressed this but you suggest using hcg without nolva?

[Bossman]

That's not tru. & I'm living proof of it, I've made steady gains over the yrs, & hav kept 60 - 70 % of cycle gains every time. Ur body is wut u mak it, I don't believe in "uncontrollable loss of mass", I admit ur gona lose some gains after ur cycle, but if u lose ALL ur gains & / or end up smaller that u were b4 u started..................u did something rong................PERIOD. I don't care if its 3 months or 3 yrs after cycle, u should not lose ALL ur gains, if u r, its UR fualt, not the gear.

If you go over your genetic threshold with the use of AAS ( and we should only be cycling when we have stopped growing naturally right), and then stop AAS use you will eventually revert to your maximum genetic limit. Seen it time and time again. And like I said, guys I see usually appear smaller after stopping AAS use. I cruised on TRT 5 months out of this year and watched my muscle slowly fade. I was able to gain it back quickly with AAS, good diet and training.

Bear, maybe you haven't reached your natural limit before cycling? You've done 3 cycles over 5-6 years. How much muscle have you put on from where you started?

[gixxerboy1]

If you go over your genetic threshold with the use of AAS ( and we should only be cycling when we have stopped growing naturally right), and then stop AAS use you will eventually revert to your maximum genetic limit. Seen it time and time again. And like I said, guys I see usually appear smaller after stopping AAS use. I cruised on TRT 5 months out of this year and watched my muscle slowly fade. I was able to gain it back quickly with AAS, good diet and training.

Bear, maybe you haven't reached your natural limit before cycling? You've done 3 cycles over 5-6 years. How much muscle have you put on from where you started?

i completely agree with that

[The Bear 79]

Bear, did you keep cycling? If you stop, you will lose it, eventually.

Like I sed, I don't believe in that crap,(no disrespect intended) If ur not in control of the muscle ur body loses or gains, ur doing something wrong. I hav cycled 3 times over the coarse of 5 - 6 yrs & hav never once reverted bak my starting weight. The only way u will "lose it, eventually" is if u decrease ur intake or stop eating rite all 2gether, & decrease ur training or stop training all 2gether. This is absolutely baffling 2 me, there is absolutely no way I am the only 1 that can take this stance on the subject & bak it up with real life hands on exp & results. A lot of u guys r pro's, u cant tell me I kno mor bout cycling & retaining gains than u..................

[gixxerboy1]

Like I sed, I don't believe in that crap,(no disrespect intended) If ur not in control of the muscle ur body loses or gains, ur doing something wrong. I hav cycled 3 times over the coarse of 5 - 6 yrs & hav never once reverted bak my starting weight. The only way u will "lose it, eventually" is if u decrease ur intake or stop eating rite all 2gether, & decrease ur training or stop training all 2gether. This is absolutely baffling 2 me, there is absolutely no way I am the only 1 that can take this stance on the subject & bak it up with real life hands on exp & results. A lot of u guys r pro's, u cant tell me I kno mor bout cycling & retaining gains than u..................

it depends on what your starting weight was. He is saying that if you stayed natural and actually got to your genetic limit. Then you cycled. You wouldnt be able to hold that. Because it is past your genetic limit.

[alexISthrowed]

Like I sed, I don't believe in that crap,(no disrespect intended) If ur not in control of the muscle ur body loses or gains, ur doing something wrong. I hav cycled 3 times over the coarse of 5 - 6 yrs & hav never once reverted bak my starting weight. The only way u will "lose it, eventually" is if u decrease ur intake or stop eating rite all 2gether, & decrease ur training or stop training all 2gether. This is absolutely baffling 2 me, there is absolutely no way I am the only 1 that can take this stance on the subject & bak it up with real life hands on exp & results. A lot of u guys r pro's, u cant tell me I kno mor bout cycling & retaining gains than u..................

You don't know more about aas then most of these guys so don't get to carried away here. I would hardly call 3 ten week cycles much hands on experience at all. If you would have waited until you were at your genetic limit and then cycled you would slowly shrink back down to the size you were before you cycled regardless of what you ate.

[The Bear 79]

it depends on what your starting weight was. He is saying that if you stayed natural and actually got to your genetic limit. Then you cycled. You wouldnt be able to hold that. Because it is past your genetic limit.

I understand that, maybe he's rite, but I doubt it, I was not @ my genetic limit when I 1st cycled, but @ 6'-2" / 250 + lbs., I'm sure I hav mor than met my limit, & I still manage to keep cycle gains mak natty gains on top of that as well.

[The Bear 79]

You don't know more about aas then most of these guys so don't get to carried away here. I would hardly call 3 ten week cycles much hands on experience at all. If you would have waited until you were at your genetic limit and then cycled you would slowly shrink back down to the size you were before you cycled regardless of what you ate.

Never claimed I knew mor than any1 tuff guy. Be it 3 cycles or 30 cycles, results r results. Ur just plain rong. PERIOD I've met my limit now & I'm still getting good results & retaining a large portion of them. Explain that.

[BBrian]

Like I sed, I don't believe in that crap,(no disrespect intended) If ur not in control of the muscle ur body loses or gains, ur doing something wrong. I hav cycled 3 times over the coarse of 5 - 6 yrs & hav never once reverted bak my starting weight. The only way u will "lose it, eventually" is if u decrease ur intake or stop eating rite all 2gether, & decrease ur training or stop training all 2gether. This is absolutely baffling 2 me, there is absolutely no way I am the only 1 that can take this stance on the subject & bak it up with real life hands on exp & results. A lot of u guys r pro's, u cant tell me I kno mor bout cycling & retaining gains than u..................

Your experience is of particular interest because it isn't the norm, but then again like you point out, diet and exercise could be the variables that have held others back. After my first cycle, I went from approximately 160 to 193 (5'10"), and then remained at around 185 for three years without gear until I was faced with college full time combined with work full time, at which point my workouts took a serious dive. Now I'd say that that was a great retention of cycle gains, but being my first, perhaps 185 is a weight that my body "wanted" me to be at as long as I was eating and exercising appropriately. On the other side of that, I have done more than twice as many cycles as you have over the past 12 years, and I can tell you that I have a near-impossible ability to remain over 185 when I am off gear, so perhaps we have both found that natural limit that is being discussed?

[BBrian]

Never claimed I knew mor than any1 tuff guy. Be it 3 cycles or 30 cycles, results r results. Ur just plain rong. PERIOD I've met my limit now & I'm still getting good results & retaining a large portion of them. Explain that.

What is your honest BF%?

[alexISthrowed]

Never claimed I knew mor than any1 tuff guy. Be it 3 cycles or 30 cycles, results r results. Ur just plain rong. PERIOD I've met my limit now & I'm still getting good results & retaining a large portion of them. Explain that.

Im don talkin 2 u

[gixxerboy1]

The debate is fine but please keep the name calling out of it

[The Bear 79]

What is your honest BF%?

I test my BF% every Sat. morning as a matter of fact, & as of 2day it is 12%-

[The Bear 79]

The debate is fine but please keep the name calling out of it

Sorry Gixx, he's always so condescending, I've bitten my tongue so often & so hard when dealing with him, I can taste blood.

[BBrian]

I test my BF% every Sat. morning as a matter of fact, & as of 2day it is 12%-

Nice. And who was name-calling? Alex IS a tough guy

[The Bear 79]

Im don talkin 2 u

[RA]

Agreed...

it depends on what your starting weight was. He is saying that if you stayed natural and actually got to your genetic limit. Then you cycled. You wouldnt be able to hold that. Because it is past your genetic limit.

[alexISthrowed]

Sorry Gixx, he's always so condescending, I've bitten my tongue so often & so hard when dealing with him, I can taste blood.

Likewise

Nice. And who was name-calling? Alex IS a tough guy

As tough as they get!

[The Bear 79]

As tough as they get!

AW that's cute, he thinks wearing a wife beater & showing of his butterfly tramp stamp, makes him tough........

[alexISthrowed]

AW that's cute, he thinks wearing a wife beater & showing of his butterfly tramp stamp, makes him tough........

I have a tribal tramp stamp.

[RA]

do you guys provide popcorn?

[BBrian]

do you guys provide popcorn?

LOL
What do you expect on a forum for AAS users? This would be funner if we all worked out at the same gym though.

[RA]

lmao...now that would be an interesting gym....

LOL
What do you expect on a forum for AAS users? This would be funner if we all worked out at the same gym though.

[Bossman]

Like I sed, I don't believe in that crap,(no disrespect intended) If ur not in control of the muscle ur body loses or gains, ur doing something wrong. I hav cycled 3 times over the coarse of 5 - 6 yrs & hav never once reverted bak my starting weight. The only way u will "lose it, eventually" is if u decrease ur intake or stop eating rite all 2gether, & decrease ur training or stop training all 2gether. This is absolutely baffling 2 me, there is absolutely no way I am the only 1 that can take this stance on the subject & bak it up with real life hands on exp & results. A lot of u guys r pro's, u cant tell me I kno mor bout cycling & retaining gains than u..................

Bear, no offense was intended at all. I've been absent from the forums for a while and have not interacted with you much. This is a discussion. That's why I asked you how much muscle you put on with your cycles and what your starting point was.

If you could gain muscle on AAS and then stop using them and maintain your gains, you would see a large number of big ass people walking around. It simply doesn't work that way. Here again, it really depends on how far you have taken yourself beyond your natural genetic potential. If you could reach 200 lbs at 10% bf naturally but then hit a wall that may be near your potential. Lets say then you cycled for 3 years numerous times and built yourself to 240 lbs at 10% bf. If you stopped, ran a very thorough PCT to bring you back to baseline, you would eventually revert to 200 lbs at 10% or near to it. Maybe it would take 18 months, maybe 6. Lots of variables. But you will not keep those "super natural" gains without AAS. You would have to continue to use AAS just to maintain those gains above 200 lbs.

As well, you will never make natural gains over super natural gains.

[The Bear 79]

No offense was taken. I've dug pretty deep in2 ur post history & I'm a fan of urs & ur knowledge bro. I competly understand wut ur saying, I just dont believe it, bcuz I hav done, am doing & will continue 2 do wut u say cant b done.

[Whoady]

Damn bear I'd love to see what 250 lbs looks like at 12% bf. I know you have said you dont post pics because of your job, but I dont think anyone would notice it was you if you cropped out your head. Anyways, I assumed what has been said here regarding keeping gains. I wonder how some guys stay on for so long to maintain gains. Im thinking guys like hulk hogan and the warrior (from wrestling) must have been on steroids for 30 years. I wonder how hulk would look without them...

Because of what has been said here, i am making a personal decision to stay natural for a while. I think i can put on a few extra lbs of muscle naturally. I might take the step in my 30's or when my testosterone declines. I just cant justify spending this much money on temporary results. Esp not now when im broke fresh out of college. I can put that money towards other things.

Thanks guys

[RA]

250 12% three cycles over several years and he keeps all his gains. Ill believe that when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet. Theres a reason theres no pics.

[The Bear 79]

250 12% three cycles over several years and he keeps all his gains. Ill believe that when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet. There's a reason there's no pics.

I love Super Troopers. And I NEVER sed I kept all my gains, read it again. Posting a pic of urself on a website where u openly admit 2 buying & using illegal drugs is just stupid IMO. No matter if u blur the face or not, I guarantee I could pick every1 here out of a line up that has ever posted a blurred face pic. In my line of work, if I get busted buying or using ANY drug, I don't just get fired, I go 2 jail. Not 2 mention, blurred face wouldn't help me any way, I hav a very large & distinctive tat that covers so much of my bod, if I blurred it out there would b no point in posting a pic anyway. So yes, ur rite, "there's a reason there's no pics" a VERY good reason, & I don't care how any1 feels about it & never will.

[RA]

lol great movie ok there has to be a way around this. send me or booz or gear or spywizard or doc sus or oh i know im missing peeps a pic and they all could vouch and i would believe it. i know these bros arent cops or federal agents