Why not low dose clomiphene instead of HCG on TRT?

[go2failure]

Gentlemen,

I appreciate your efforts, but I still don`t follow you. I`m usually slow to pick up things, so please bear with me.

I am not talking of PCT or attempting to restart the HPT axis and I`m well aware that HCG shut downs LH production.

I`m talking about using clomiphene instead of HCG while using exogenous testosterone on TRT.

From Dr. Crisler's HCG update:

The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.


Dr. Crisler and the other posters are trying to say that HCG is way more beneficial to the TRT protocol than without. Clomid binds to estrogen receptors to work and in some people gives the feeling of estrogen dominance (ED, bloating, fatigue, hot flashes, etc). It also has been known to cause temporary/permanent vision problems starting at low doses. Like the previous poster alluded, at some point Clomid completes the HPTA loop from the stimulation it provides and it begins to negate its own production.

[Renholder]

Dr. Crisler and the other posters are trying to say that HCG is way more beneficial to the TRT protocol than without. Clomid binds to estrogen receptors to work and in some people gives the feeling of estrogen dominance (ED, bloating, fatigue, hot flashes, etc). It also has been known to cause temporary/permanent vision problems starting at low doses. Like the previous poster alluded, at some point Clomid completes the HPTA loop from the stimulation it provides and it begins to negate its own production.

I do not follow. Especially the last sentence?

From what I have learned, side effects on clomid are typically dose-related and not really an issue with the type of doses we are talking about here. On clomiphene monotherapy, which there are several good studies proving it`s efficacy compared with exogenous testosterone treatment and with LESS side-effects (none actually), the most used dose is 12,5 mg every day. I used that dose myself on an attempt of montherapy and experienced NO side-effects at all. Unfortunately, it did not boost my testosterone signifcantly and increased my SHBG.

For me, I would consider going lower than that if I were to use it along with TRT instead of HCG.

If I`m not completely mistaken, Crisler now uses clomid monotherapy with a select few of his patients and have changed his opinion from earlier when he were completely opposed to it.

What am I missing here?

[go2failure]

I do not follow. Especially the last sentence?

From what I have learned, side effects on clomid are typically dose-related and not really an issue with the type of doses we are talking about here. On clomiphene monotherapy, which there are several good studies proving it`s efficacy compared with exogenous testosterone treatment and with LESS side-effects (none actually), the most used dose is 12,5 mg every day. I used that dose myself on an attempt of montherapy and experienced NO side-effects at all. Unfortunately, it did not boost my testosterone signifcantly and increased my SHBG.

For me, I would consider going lower than that if I were to use it along with TRT instead of HCG.

If I`m not completely mistaken, Crisler now uses clomid monotherapy with a select few of his patients and have changed his opinion from earlier when he were completely opposed to it.

What am I missing here?

What he is saying is HCG restores the production of pregnolone, progesterone, dhea, and the creation of those molecules not just from the organs, which puts stress on them without the proper enzymatic stimulation to promote the conversion of Cholesterol into the necessary steroid molecules.

Here is a link to a sheet which will show you the flow of the steroid molecules.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Steroidogenesis.svg

(add the htt.p:// onto the beginning)

So basically, it's VERY foolish not to be on HCG when you have the choice to be on it. It restores the natural processes of making the hormones in your body and gives you a much healthier treatment and allows you to feel good again. CLOMID... does not do any of this of this ... AT ALL... In addition to the bullshit sides some get from it... some being permanent

[Renholder]

What he is saying is HCG restores the production of pregnolone, progesterone, dhea, and the creation of those molecules not just from the organs, which puts stress on them without the proper enzymatic stimulation to promote the conversion of Cholesterol into the necessary steroid molecules.

Here is a link to a sheet which will show you the flow of the steroid molecules.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Steroidogenesis.svg

(add the htt.p:// onto the beginning)

So basically, it's VERY foolish not to be on HCG when you have the choice to be on it. It restores the natural processes of making the hormones in your body and gives you a much healthier treatment and allows you to feel good again. CLOMID... does not do any of this of this ... AT ALL... In addition to the bullshit sides some get from it... some being permanent

Thank you.

I know that it`s foolish to not be on HCG when on TRT and that`s why I`m currently using it. But I do not understand how clomid does not do anything of this AT ALL? And I never heard of the side effects being permanent?

When I was on clomiphene monotherapy, I experienced zero side-effects (25 mg ED) and I would expect to use a lower dose if I were to try it now in addition to the TRT I`m using (Nebido).

I read about a guy on another forum who asked similar questions with HCG vs clomiphene. He had bloodwork showing much higher levels of pregnolone when he used clomid with his TRT regime, than when he used HCG.